CoI Cross Question

ezra_

Hello,

I have a quick question regarding the cross in a CoI service.

I'm doing up some preliminary drafts of the order of service for a CoI marriage, and I'm not sure if this cross is appropriate:



I'm not sure about the circle in the cross - is that a Catholic or Celtic influence?

I don't want to offend the reverend!

homer911

I'd say you are safe provided its a cross, not a crucifix. In most protestant traditions the cross is shown empty representing the risen Christ

Peregrinus

ezra_ wrote: »

Hello,

I have a quick question regarding the cross in a CoI service.

I'm doing up some preliminary drafts of the order of service for a CoI marriage, and I'm not sure if this cross is appropriate:



I'm not sure about the circle in the cross - is that a Catholic or Celtic influence?

I don't want to offend the reverend!

No danger of offence.

Your question "is that a Catholic or Celtic influence?" reflects a misconception. Ireland was Christianised from the fifth century onwards, and it was Catholic Christianity which arrived and took root here. Thus, in so far as there was a distinctive Celtic Christianity, it was nevertheless a fully Catholic Christianity.

The ringed cross that we know as the Celtic cross starts to become common from about the eighth century onwards, but it really reached its peak in the ninth century with the erection of numerous "high crosses" carved in stone, in the Celtic cross form. There are many surviving examples. The Celtic cross enjoyed a revival in fashion in the nineteenth century, with the rise of Irish national sentiment.

The Celtic cross is absolutely not a problem for Anglicans, and you'll see in featuring in art and design in many Anglican churches. Here, for example, is a large Celtic Cross worked into the south transept of St. Anne's C of I Cathedral in Belfast.

branie2

Looks like a Celtic cross to me

Berserker

Why can't you use a cross without a circle?

ezra_

Berserker wrote: »

Why can't you use a cross without a circle?

In the words of the bride: It looks to funereal. She prefers the one with the circle.

martinedwards

our church is united C of I / Methodist (too complicated, don't ask!)

we have a wooden cross with the circle on our communion table.

ABSOLUTELY no issue.

J C

Berserker wrote: »

Why can't you use a cross without a circle?

Of course, you can, if you want.

There is another meaning to the 'celtic cross' design ... which is the eclipsing of sunworship (circle) by christianity (cross).



The opposite is indicated by a cross within a circle ... which includes the nero or broken upturned cross.



The so-called 'peace cross' in a circle sybolises the breaking and eclipsing of the christian cross.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/14/dutch-school-peace-sign-satanic_n_3915627.html

http://www.teachpeace.com/peacesymbolhistory.htm

tommy2bad

Ahh JC, that's a load of cobblers, but don't feel bad there are Catholic loons as well;
http://catholicism.org/the-peace-sign.html

The peace symbol is exactly what it claims to be a symbol designed for a campaign in the 50's. No occult or satanism involved at all. The whole smearing of the peace symbol started with the John Birch Society, a far-right conservative think tank type thing.

Peregrinus

Symbolism is something we make up, not something inherent in anything. We decide that, e.g., the celtic cross symbolises the victory of Christianity over sun-worship, or if we want we decide the opposite. But in both cases this would be a later attribution of a meaning to an already existing sign. It's very unlikely that in its origins it was designed to symbolise victory over sun-worship; the Celtic religion which was supplanted by Christianity in Ireland was not a sun-worshipping religion.

As for the "peace symbol", it was designed as a logo for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament by Gerard Holtom. According to him, the design is based on a combination of the semaphore signals for 'N' and "D" (for nuclear disarmament"), and also represents a human figure with arms dropped in a gesture of despair, while the circle around the symbol represents unborn children.

J C

tommy2bad wrote: »

Ahh JC, that's a load of cobblers, but don't feel bad there are Catholic loons as well;
http://catholicism.org/the-peace-sign.html

To coin a phrase ... 'those whom we wish to ignore ... we first delare to be mad' !!!:)

tommy2bad wrote: »

The peace symbol is exactly what it claims to be a symbol designed for a campaign in the 50's. No occult or satanism involved at all. The whole smearing of the peace symbol started with the John Birch Society, a far-right conservative think tank type thing.

Do you always take people at their word?
... or do you critically examine what they claim ?

Symbols have objective meaning given to them by historical usage. The fact that the Complete Nuclear Disarmament (CND) symbol is a combination of the Nero Cross and a circle is a clear allusion to the breaking of Christianity and its eclipsing by nature worship.
Whether this was accidental or deliberate is open to debate ... but the years that followed it's unveiling in the late 1950's have certainly moved in the direction that it symbolises ... the decline of Christianity and its replacement with nature worship (in all of its guises).
... and we have more nuclear weapons now than we had in the 1950's ... and faster ways to deliver them ... so CND has been a complete failure ... if its objective actually was complete nuclear disarmament.

J C

Peregrinus wrote: »

Symbolism is something we make up, not something inherent in anything. We decide that, e.g., the celtic cross symbolises the victory of Christianity over sun-worship, or if we want we decide the opposite. But in both cases this would be a later attribution of a meaning to an already existing sign. It's very unlikely that in its origins it was designed to symbolise victory over sun-worship; the Celtic religion which was supplanted by Christianity in Ireland was not a sun-worshipping religion.

The Celtic Druidic tradition was indeed a sun-worshipping religion.
http://www.libraryireland.com/HistoryIreland/Sun-Worship.php

You are correct that symbols are given meaning by people ... but once this meaning is attached ... it then becomes an inherent (and objective) symbol of what it stands for.

Peregrinus wrote: »

As for the "peace symbol", it was designed as a logo for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament by Gerard Holtom. According to him, the design is based on a combination of the semaphore signals for 'N' and "D" (for nuclear disarmament"), and also represents a human figure with arms dropped in a gesture of despair, while the circle around the symbol represents unborn children.

It may well be all of these things that he had in mind ... but it is also objectively a combined Nero Cross and sun-worship symbol.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

Your question "is that a Catholic or Celtic influence?" reflects a misconception. Ireland was Christianised from the fifth century onwards, and it was Catholic Christianity which arrived and took root here. Thus, in so far as there was a distinctive Celtic Christianity, it was nevertheless a fully Catholic Christianity.

Not sure what misconception you refer to? The Celtic cross was a Celtic style, and not used by the more Romanised orders/monasteries/churches.
The style of cross predates the reformation, so the whole protestant/catholic thing is totally irrelevant to it.
What do you mean by "a Catholic Christianity" anyway?
Celtic Christianity had its own style, hierarchy, different dates for Easter etc.. but was eventually dominated by, and subsumed into, the kind of Christianity that was administered directly by papal authority in Rome.

The ringed cross that we know as the Celtic cross starts to become common from about the eighth century onwards, but it really reached its peak in the ninth century with the erection of numerous "high crosses" carved in stone, in the Celtic cross form.

Yes, and most likely there is a practical application here, in that the stone arms of the cross are less likely to break off when reinforced by a stone circle.
When making a cross out of wood, a simple cross shape is easiest and best. But wood does not last long outdoors in our damp climate.

Also the symbolism of the sun may be an additional reason, as the sun played an important role in the indigenous religions.
Also the halo is a concept that was normally portrayed as a standing (vertical) circle in early christian art, and indeed went all the way back to eastern mystic religions.
Usually the best way of doing something comes about, in the end, as a result of multiple reasons.

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Celtic cross is absolutely not a problem for Anglicans, and you'll see in featuring in art and design in many Anglican churches. Here, for example, is a large Celtic Cross worked into the south transept of St. Anne's C of I Cathedral in Belfast.

I agree. What people tend to forget is that the ancient Brits were a Celtic people. You are just as likely to find an old Celtic cross in a graveyard in England or Wales as you are in Ireland.

J C

recedite wrote: »

I agree. What people tend to forget is that the ancient Brits were a Celtic people. You are just as likely to find an old Celtic cross in a graveyard in England or Wales as you are in Ireland.

You are correct about the Brits having more Celtic blood in their veins than they may realise, but by the time of the invention of the Celtic Cross ... Celtic culture was largely confined to Wales and Scotland ... due to the predominance of the the Angels and Saxons in heart of what is England today ... although the Celts did also hold out in the west country in and around Cornwall, particularly.

recedite

J C wrote: »

the predominance of the the Angels and Saxons in heart of what is England today..

But after these people arrived in Britain, they gradually became Christianised; into the local version of Christianity which was the distinctive celtic church. So there was a couple of hundred years, after the Roman legions had withdrawn and before the Vikings arrived, when this celtic christianity produced a distinctive culture with monasteries, the stone crosses and great works of art such as the Book of Kells. They still regarded Rome and The Holy Land as the special places of Christianity, and its spiritual home, but they valued their independence, appointed their own hierarchy, and made their own decisions on ecclesiastical matters.

Rome sent St. Augustine to try to impose its version of Christianity. While he had some success among the pagan saxons on the east coast of Britain, he was completely rejected by their enemies, the celts, on the west side.
But as time went on, saxon and celt began to integrate more, and it is arguable that the influence of Rome again waned against the predominant local celtic form of Christianity.
The Lindisfarne Gospels are a good example of what I mean; produced by people who were very definitely anglo-saxon by tribe, but arguably celtic christian by religion. At this stage there was still some contact with Rome, but not subservience to it. The arrival of the Normans eventually brought an end to the independence of the celtic church.