Dog growling at our other dog

mojesius

Right, our eldest dog (small terrier cross) has always been a bit of a grump. This is mild enough, he has never bitten anyone or been overly aggressive. Not too fond of strangers petting him in the house but just tends to go into another room if there are too many people around. He's very friendly with the immediate family etc and is very friendly with other dogs off lead. We've had him since he was around 6 MTHS old, took him in as a stray. He's 10 now.

However, he constantly growls at our youngest dog , a bigger terrier X, around 3 yrs old. They have the odd row, usually started by the older dog and the younger terrier being bigger puts him in his place and that's the end of it. He more or less ignores the growling, he's not at all aggressive. They get along great outside on walks but it seems to be in the house/enclosed spaces where the growling happens.

We moved house a couple of months ago and it's gotten worse. The older dog will sit in doorways, in the hall etc. and growls when the other dog walks by or close. He'll growl when the younger dog walks into a room. He rarely shows his teeth but the low growling has manifested into an unpleasant habit, many times a day he does this. We have third dog who is 4, he doesn't growl at him. He's small like the eldest dog. The 3 and 4 yr old get along great.

We've been handling this by keeping the youngest and eldest dogs separate (they don't hang around each other naturally anyway). However I really don't want the bigger younger dog picking up these habits/turning aggressive having to stand up for himself, I don't want the older dog getting hurt in old age and want to stamp the behaviour out.

Any advice/ideas welcome. Thanks!

Edit: also he used to growl at our (now passed away) dog when she was in her twighlight years when she walked around but she was deaf at that stage and couldn't hear him/ignored him as well.

seamus

It sounds to me like the eldest dog is fairly territorial and feels the need to assert himself in front of the bigger dog, even if the bigger dog doesn't really care.

And moving house has probably just made it worse because he's less sure what is and isn't "his".

I'd suggest getting a good behaviourist in to see what they're doing and see if any changes may work. Having a cage for one of the dogs to sleep in (you don't have to close the door) may make the boundary lines more obvious and help ease things. However, it can also make things worse, so I'd tread carefully.

Bells21

With a change in behaviour such as that and given that he's an older dog perhaps a visit to the vet might be in order for a check up. If the you get, bigger dog is 'putting him in his place' he may be unintentionally hurting the older dog if he's stuff/sore etc.
Other than that perhaps getting a professional in to look at the situation and dynamics more closely would be an option.

Lumen

The advice we got (two terrier sisters, smaller one growly) was to pick a top dog and constantly reinforce that hierarchy by preferentially treating dog 1 (feed first, pet first) but not to the total exclusion of dog 2.

The reasoning is that dogs are happier when they know their place and are treated consistently. A bit like people really.

I can't say it's been completely successful.

njs030

I have a very cranky terrier x, he insists we stick to a routine and can tell the time! If their food is 5 mins late he starts barking and doesnt stop until its served.
He goes to bed in his cosy crate (with a gorgeous expensive bed no one else has ever dared lie in) at the same time every night and barks until we come and put him in there with a treat and it locked behind him!

He can occasionally be growly and snappy at the other dogs but we firmly say no and he takes himself off to his crate for a bit of space

Perhaps giving him a place that's his own and he knows no one will intrude will help him feel secure once you've been to the vet and ruled out any pain issues?

DBB

Lumen wrote: »

The advice we got (two terrier sisters, smaller one growly) was to pick a top dog and constantly reinforce that hierarchy by preferentially treating dog 1 (feed first, pet first) but not to the total exclusion of dog 2.

The reasoning is that dogs are happier when they know their place and are treated consistently. A bit like people really.

I can't say it's been completely successful.

Eek! It can't succeed, because establishment or maintenance of a social hierarchy is not why dogs growl at each other!
The whole social hierarchy theory has been disproved, and so trying to enforce one on dogs is a lesson in futility... It is biologically meaningless to the dogs (in fact, it can potentially make things worse as we humans ham-fistedly try to force weird contrived rules on them), and I think it makes owners feel somehow inadequate trying to figure out which is "top dog", when none of them are, or know what in the name bejeebers the concept even means

OP, my guess is that your older dog just plain doesn't like the younger one, and feels uncomfortable around him. That's OK! We don't expect humans to live together and get on all the time. Older dogs, especially terriers, tend to become a bit grumpy and Victor Meldrew-esque, set in their ways, and they suffer fools less and less gladly as they age. As has already been suggested, a good age-focussed vet check would be well advised to rule in or out anything health-wise that might be making him feel more grumbly than usual.

I'd echo the advice to get a good, force-free trainer or behaviourist in just to assess... It shouldn't take long... And to try to work out the dynamic between the dogs so that you can address it effectively.
Good luck op! Doggy politics, huh?

mojesius

Thanks to everyone for your advice, really appreciate it! We'll continue to plough on with rewarding happy quiet behaviour around each other and ensure grumpy pants has enough of his own space in his twighlight years.

Victor Meldrew lol, he's turning into him indeed

We're getting a behaviourist around anyway to get some tips as we have a baby joining the 'pack' soon so can see what they say.

Health wise, he's fit as a fiddle, only had a check up a few weeks ago, runs like hell on walks and still insists on trying to swim in lakes etc. in the middle of winter (he's happiest when he's swimming). Maybe a jacuzzi is the answer

Thanks again

Lumen

DBB wrote: »

Eek! It can't succeed, because establishment or maintenance of a social hierarchy is not why dogs growl at each other!
The whole social hierarchy theory has been disproved, and so trying to enforce one on dogs is a lesson in futility... It is biologically meaningless to the dogs (in fact, it can potentially make things worse as we humans ham-fistedly try to force weird contrived rules on them), and I think it makes owners feel somehow inadequate trying to figure out which is "top dog", when none of them are, or know what in the name bejeebers the concept even means

OK, well this was advice we got expensively from a well-regarded behaviourist.

Do you have any links to back this up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to read more about it.

muddypaws

Lumen wrote: »

OK, well this was advice we got expensively from a well-regarded behaviourist.

Do you have any links to back this up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to read more about it.

Can I ask how long ago? Things have changed drastically in the dog training and behaviour world.

tk123

Lumen wrote: »

OK, well this was advice we got expensively from a well-regarded behaviourist.

Do you have any links to back this up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to read more about it.

Do you have any links on the benefits of enforcing a hierarchy? I only have 2 dogs (with never a cross word spoken between them) and it seems like a really bad idea to me ....but i don’t practice 70’s style debunked pack theory.

Was it an apdt behaviourist?

DBB

Lumen wrote: »

OK, well this was advice we got expensively from a well-regarded behaviourist.

Do you have any links to back this up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to read more about it.

Might I ask, when was this that you received this advice from the behaviourist? I'm asking because in the past 10-15 years, dog training and behavioural therapy has moved on hugely from anecdotally-based suppositions on how dogs learn, and indeed their social structure.
Nowadays, there are rafts and rafts of research which, early in the campaign 15ish years ago, made behavioural counsellors sit up and take notice that many of the anecdotal suppositions they'd been working under were deeply flawed, and/or just plain wrong. In some cases, they'd been working with very limited scientific research which was subsequently rescinded... Chief amongst these was David Mech's research into captive wolves. He concluded, from researching captive wolves, that they lived within a rigorously upheld dominance hierarchy... An aggressive, tense, structure in which the boldest, meanest wolves got to lead the pack. If this was true of wolves, it must be true of dogs too, right?
However, when Mech studied wolves in the wild, he realised that he'd got it badly wrong... That wolves naturally live in peaceful family groups, with no other hierarchy other than the 2 parents being benevolently in charge of what the family got up to... Remarkably similar to how human families work. Mech realised that to conclude anything about the natural behaviour of wolves by studying them in highly unnatural captivity, was akin to drawing conclusions about human behaviour by studying prison inmates in jail... Highly aggressive and tense environments.
However, by that stage, the simplistic idea that if wolves dominated one another, it meant dogs do too, and all we humans need to do in order to control our dogs' behaviour is to dominate them, had taken off... An easy one-size-fits-all solution that could be used to explain and solve all manners of problem behaviours. And this idea galloped away, despite Mech publishing research which rescinded his earlier conclusions, and despite the widespread experiences of owners, like yourself, that trying to use social dominance to modify dog behaviour just doesn't work... Because it can't.

However, about 15 years ago, really good, rigorous scientific research into dog behaviour began... And the good behaviourists out there realised they'd been mistaken, and started to comprehensively use the growing research to support and lead how they approached behavioural problems, and they have done since.
Indeed, so accepted has the evidence-led, scientific approach to dog behavioural counselling become, that anyone who calls themselves a "behaviourist", regardless of how well regarded they may be, who espouses pack leadership and dominance hierarchies, immediately exposes themselves as not having kept up with the research, and indeed not having bothered to get themselves appropriately qualified nor professionally certified... Because no behavioural association in the world accepts that dominance hierarchies exist, and consequently do not certify people who stick to this disproven ideology.
Anyone can set themselves up as a dog behaviourist. However, the people who actually have the tacit "right" to call themselves a behaviourist will not only have a 3rd level qualification in animal behaviour, they'll also have been independently assessed by one of the professional associations which, if the candidate is good enough, will certify them as such.

Links, you say? Look, the interweb is choking with examples. But a couple of succinct articles written by some of the above-mentioned qualified, certified behaviourists, might help to guide your research. These first couple of authors, by the way, have attained the highest professional certification it's possible to get in the world... They're Certificated Clinical Animal Behaviourists (CCAB), a certification process that requires a minimum of an honours degree in animal behaviour, followed by several years of extremely rigorous gaining-of-experience, writing up of case studies, and exhibiting an ability to apply their knowledge:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Also, the website of the Dog Welfare Campaign... Supported by all of the recognised training and behaviour associations, rescue groups, RSPCA etc...

https://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

Victoria Stilwell's oponion: https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/the-truth-about-dominance/

Dr. Sophia Yin's opinion and explanation: https://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

There are loads more out there. I'm not linking to any more because I think these should be enough to get you started.

If you want to read books on the subject, without doubt one of the most enjoyably readable books that brings all the research into one place is John Bradshaw's "In Defence of Dogs".
Or
Barry Eaton's "Dominance in Dofs: Fact or Fiction?"
Or
Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash"

Lumen

I may have misrepresented the advice we were given, so here is an OCR'd extract.

I don't have a "dog in this fight" and claim no expertise whatsoever.

Overcoming competitive aggression between two dogs in the same household

- Keep both dogs together as much as possible. When you separate them, they will be more likely to behave aggressively when you put them back together, as they may need to resolve the dominance hierarchy all over again.

- Ignoring the dogs and spending as little time as possible with them over the first weeks will give your dogs a chance to resolve any conflict over who was the dominant member of the pack. Most aggressive incidents occur in the owner's presence, and it is most likely that the owner's attention is the issue over which the aggression begins. Therefore, when you are with the dogs, be careful not to pay more attention to the subordinate member of your pack.

- When greeting the dogs, feeding them, letting them into the garden, etc., as far as possible give your attention, food, etc., to the higher ranking dog first.

- If aggressive incidents occur between the two dogs, do not reprimand or isolate the higher ranking dog, even if he appears to have begun the fight, as it will probably be as a result of the other dog behaving in some way that the higher ranking dog found challenging to his status. If you reprimand either of the two, it should be the more subordinate dog.

- Until the social order has been settled between the two dogs, as far as possible you should try to avoid the situations in which aggression has occurred in the past.

- Restructuring your relationship with both dogs may also help to reduce the tendency for aggression between them.

muddypaws

Lumen wrote: »

I may have misrepresented the advice we were given, so here is an OCR'd extract.

I don't have a "dog in this fight" and claim no expertise whatsoever.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

That is such old fashioned advice. Was this a recent consultation that you had?

Lumen

muddypaws wrote: »

Was this a recent consultation that you had?

July 2017.

tk123

Pretty shocking advice. Who recommended them?!

Knine

Lumen wrote: »

I may have misrepresented the advice we were given, so here is an OCR'd extract.

I don't have a "dog in this fight" and claim no expertise whatsoever.

Had I followed that advice recently I would have a dead dog. I have a group of dogs. 2 simply did not like each other. There was no top dog. In fact the 2 culprits lived happily with another bitch & dog. Leaving certain breeds together to "work out top dog" will result in a fatality because they are not fighting for top dog at all but it could be a whole myrid of reasons - resources, mate etc or simply that they don't like each other.

One of my bitches now happily lives with several other dogs in a different house.

Lumen

tk123 wrote: »

Pretty shocking advice. Who recommended them?!

A vet.

VonVix

Lumen wrote: »

A vet.

This is sadly not surprising at all, given most vets don't generally get much training when it comes to dog behaviour/training related issues.

tk123

VonVix wrote: »

This is sadly not surprising at all, given most vets don't generally get much training when it comes to dog behaviour/training related issues.

I think the one OP is talking about might be that Vet with a very obviously outdated qualification that other vets like to recommend. I was actually in the Vets a couple of weeks ago with a snarling dog inside the examination room while we were waiting and they going to arrange an appointment for them with this wonderful behaviourist ‘because they look at them from a Vets point of view too’! I cringed because that same practice gave me some terrible advice a few months ago which I politely nodded at and ignored as it was complete rubbish! Client had a wonderful behaviourist lined up too but changed her mind on their advice

VonVix

tk123 wrote: »

I think the one OP is talking about might be that Vet with a very obviously outdated qualification that other vets like to recommend. I was actually in the Vets a couple of weeks ago with a snarling dog inside the examination room while we were waiting and they going to arrange an appointment for them! I cringed because that same practice gave me some terrible advice a few months ago which I politely nodded at and ignored as it was complete rubbish!

Oh, I got it as it was a recommendation from a vet, the trainer/behaviourist was, that is.

Sorry, long, long, looong work day. :P

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

I may have misrepresented the advice we were given, so here is an OCR'd extract.

I don't have a "dog in this fight" and claim no expertise whatsoever.

Oh wow. My jaw was on the ground reading that. I can't believe someone gave you that advice THIS YEAR! And charged you for it too I assume. That's shocking. And actually really sad.

sillysmiles

Sorry to take this off topic - but does lumen have any come back against the "behaviourist" they paid for such outdated and scientifically unsound advice?

DBB

sillysmiles wrote: »

Sorry to take this off topic - but does lumen have any come back against the "behaviourist" they paid for such outdated and scientifically unsound advice?

Unfortunately not, given that it's an unregulated industry. There are valiant attempts being made at self-regulation (no surprise... In the UK), as in, one umbrella organisation that represents a number of reputable trainers' and behaviourists' professional associations that sign up to certain standards (Animal Behaviour and Training Council)... But this does not stop people staying outside such organisations and still calling themselves a behaviourist.
Maybe one day, it'll become a protected title, but until then it's buyer beware... Unless the advice given causes harm and the owner sues the behaviourist for negligence, there's not much an owner can do.

Choc Chip

I agree that it should be a protected title, but in a country where we have legal puppy farms and unregulated financial planning, non-qualified "nutritionists" and "councillors" / "psychotherapists", I don't see "behaviourist" becoming a protected title any time soon...

Lumen

sillysmiles wrote: »

Sorry to take this off topic - but does lumen have any come back against the "behaviourist" they paid for such outdated and scientifically unsound advice?

To be absolutely clear I did not pay for this advice. You can tell by my post count that I prefer to scrounge free advice from boards :pac:

My wife paid. Two hundred and fifty quid!

Bells21

Lumen wrote:

My wife paid. Two hundred and fifty quid!

Wow, and not in a good way!! Was that over a series of appointments?

Lumen

Bells21 wrote: »

Wow, and not in a good way!! Was that over a series of appointments?

One. We were told we were going to the best in the country! Nothing but the best for our mutts.

Ashbx

In my naivety in my early 20s I got a dog trainer out to help me with my dog who pulled. She was supposed to arrive for an hour, came for 15 mins, made my dog sit and rewarded with rich tea biscuits (my dog until this point never had human food), then brought my dog out to the road (only outside my driveway and no further) but she wasn't pulling for her so decided that the dog was fine, charged me €70 and went on her way.

If I remembered her details I would name and shame her. This woman had no idea what she was doing and because my dog didn't pull for the 2 mins she had her, she decided that I, who was a young girl with a new puppy, didn't know what I was doing. Came to boards for advice and after many months of hard work I have my dogs pulling under control (most of the time! ).

I would recommend to anyone to do some serious homework before getting a dog trainer.