Kirwin Action Group

PLL

What is the story with them blocking the right turns on the Headford Road this morning. Is it legal to block a public road, especially one that is entrance to a school? Without former notice?

If they legally have a right to do it then fine, but give commuters prior notice so they are aware their journey will take longer.

thesandeman

It was announced in the media in advance so I presume they had permission.

Your Face

I saw this yesterday:

http://connachttribune.ie/action-group-protest-kirwan-roundabout-900/

biko

From article

Galway Bay fm newsroom – The Kirwan Action Group is holding a protest this week at the roundabout in the city over proposed changes to the junction.

The €1.2 million project will convert the roundabout into a four-arm traffic light junction and divert the Coolagh road onto the N84 Headford road to create a three-arm junction.

The Kirwan Action Group claims this will increase traffic through Menlo, Tirellan, and Ballinfoile.

Unrealistic

PLL wrote: »

especially one that is entrance to a school? Without former notice?

Parents of children in that school received advance notification that the protesters would not obstruct them.

PLL

biko wrote: »

From article

There was no-one at the the roundabout at all which is what was really confusing. I thought it was just residents annoyed at traffic through their estate which makes complete sense. Protesting about a change to the roundabout on a side road makes no sense.

Considering they had signs saying 'No right turn this Wednesday' they could have put them up on the route before then.

Unrealistic

PLL wrote: »

There was no-one at the the roundabout at all which is what was really confusing. I thought it was just residents annoyed at traffic through their estate which makes complete sense. Protesting about a change to the roundabout on a side road makes no sense.

It was similar to what you describe about "residents annoyed at traffic through their estate" but was actually about traffic through Menlo village rather than than through estates.

It's 4.5km in a straight line along the Headford Road from Ballindooley Cross to Woodquay but there is a roundabout and four sets of traffic lights along the route. Every day hundreds of cars try to bypass that by turning off the Headford Road at Ballindooley and taking a 7.3km detour along narrow country roads through Menlo and down the Dyke Road to rejoin the Headford Road at Woodquay. Many more come in the Headford Road as far as Ballinfoyle/Tirellan and then shoot up through the roads of the estates to get to the Dyke Road that way and avoid the roundabouts and traffic lights.

Sampling of the cars passing through Menlo has shown 98% of cars travelling over the speed limit. The upshot is that children who live on the other two approach roads to Menlo school from the north and west mostly walk to school but those who live on the eastern approach road are too fearful of the traffic using it as a rat run. So they feel compelled to drive their children to school for their own safety (a distance that could be walked in as little as ten minutes).

So the concern is twofold. First it was a protest against existing traffic speeding through a residential area and, second, a fear that the change to the Kirwan Roundabout will encourage even more traffic to try to use these roads as a rat run.

PLL wrote: »

Considering they had signs saying 'No right turn this Wednesday' they could have put them up on the route before then.

I believe they were up yesterday, if not earlier, but maybe they weren't very noticeable.

Zzippy

Unrealistic wrote: »

It was similar to what you describe about "residents annoyed at traffic through their estate" but was actually about traffic through Menlo village rather than than through estates.

It's 4.5km in a straight line along the Headford Road from Ballindooley Cross to Woodquay but there is a roundabout and four sets of traffic lights along the route. Every day hundreds of cars try to bypass that by turning off the Headford Road at Ballindooley and taking a 7.3km detour along narrow country roads through Menlo and down the Dyke Road to rejoin the Headford Road at Woodquay. Many more come in the Headford Road as far as Ballinfoyle/Tirellan and then shoot up through the roads of the estates to get to the Dyke Road that way and avoid the roundabouts and traffic lights.

Sampling of the cars passing through Menlo has shown 98% of cars travelling over the speed limit. The upshot is that children who live on the other two approach roads to Menlo school from the north and west mostly walk to school but those who live on the eastern approach road are too fearful of the traffic using it as a rat run. So they feel compelled to drive their children to school for their own safety (a distance that could be walked in as little as ten minutes).

So the concern is twofold. First it was a protest against existing traffic speeding through a residential area and, second, a fear that the change to the Kirwan Roundabout will encourage even more traffic to try to use these roads as a rat run.


I believe they were up yesterday, if not earlier, but maybe they weren't very noticeable.

I take that road maybe two mornings a week. yes, some cars go too fast, especially in the 50kmh zone. For those of us who drive according to the speed limit, it's a legitimate alternative route to avoid traffic. It's also a much more pleasant drive, its quieter, you get some nice views and you don't generally have someone sitting on your bumper. I meet locals walking that road nearly every morning. Calling it a rat run has connotations of rat runs in city housing estates with the implication that it should be closed to through traffic. The road was there long before a lot of the people there moved in.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

I take that road maybe two mornings a week. yes, some cars go too fast, especially in the 50kmh zone. For those of us who drive according to the speed limit, it's a legitimate alternative route to avoid traffic. It's also a much more pleasant drive, its quieter, you get some nice views and you don't generally have someone sitting on your bumper. I meet locals walking that road nearly every morning. Calling it a rat run has connotations of rat runs in city housing estates with the implication that it should be closed to through traffic. The road was there long before a lot of the people there moved in.

Unless you have business in the Menlo then you are rat running here, and its not a legitimate alternative route. You are using a Local Road instead of a National Road.

gordongekko

what_traffic wrote: »

Unless you have business in the Menlo then you are rat running here, and its not a legitimate alternative route. You are using a Local Road instead of a National Road.

Bit like a cyclist using the road instead of a bike lane

biko

Let's leave cycling out of this, thx

flazio

Like many, I've used Menlo to get onto Bothair Na Treabh after business in the cinema retail park and or Galway shopping centre. Cuts out Dunnes catastrophic traffic lights.

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

Unless you have business in the Menlo then you are rat running here, and its not a legitimate alternative route. You are using a Local Road instead of a National Road.

Can you link us to the law saying that this is not allowed?


Sounds to me like they need some serious traffic calming measures along the alternative routes.

Curly head

biko wrote:

Let's leave cycling out of this, thx

That road is way too dangerous for cycling

ben.schlomo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Can you link us to the law saying that this is not allowed?


Sounds to me like they need some serious traffic calming measures along the alternative routes.

Tirellan has plenty of traffic calming measures in place for many years.

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

Unless you have business in the Menlo then you are rat running here, and its not a legitimate alternative route. You are using a Local Road instead of a National Road.

I live less than 2 km from Ballindooley, on a road that is also used by commuters to cut between the Headford and Tuam roads. When I reach Ballindooley Cross, I can take the N84 into traffic, or the Menlo road into Woodquay, beside where I work. Both are legitimate routes, there is no law that says I must use a national road.

I get the issue with traffic, I enjoy walking on our road too with kids, but traffic calming and proper speed enforcement is the approach needed, not telling people they are not allowed to drive a certain route. When we moved here we accepted that it was a public road that people used to get from A to B, folks in Menlo are also aware of that. Speeding is the issue, not traffic.

Robbo

what_traffic wrote: »

Unless you have business in the Menlo then you are rat running here, and its not a legitimate alternative route. You are using a Local Road instead of a National Road.

Are there any shops in Menlo that sell Precious Things or Cans of Cant?

what_traffic

Robbo wrote: »

Are there any shops in Menlo that sell Precious Things or Cans of Cant?

You tell me?

what_traffic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Can you link us to the law saying that this is not allowed?

There is no law in Ireland, it does exist on the Continent though .It still is RAT running.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

I live less than 2 km from Ballindooley, on a road that is also used by commuters to cut between the Headford and Tuam roads.

This is not right either. So you do know how it feels as somebody who lives on a local road when you see this rat running occur.

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

This is not right either. So you do know how it feels as somebody who lives on a local road when you see this rat running occur.

I knew before we bought the house that motorists who don't live locally use the road to get from one place to another. Thankfully most of them obey the speed limit and are considerate to other road users (I walk and cycle myself, as well as being a motorist). If they didn't, I would consider lobbying for some traffic calming measures. I certainly don't consider moving to an area and then expecting the road to be for mine and my neighbours' use only. There's no right or wrong about someone legitimately using a public road, there is only good and bad driving on that road. Bad driving needs to be rooted out and stopped, wherever it occurs.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

There's no right or wrong about someone legitimately using a public road, there is only good and bad driving on that road. Bad driving needs to be rooted out and stopped, wherever it occurs.

I disagree - these small local roads are not able to handle this vehicular through traffic. They were never designed for that purpose. Traffic calming is only addressing the effects not the root cause.

Many local people in your vicinity disagree with your viewpoint based on the following
http://www.tg4.ie/ga/nuacht/?id=925456
and the video link of the same
https://twitter.com/NuachtTG4/status/938485893844811776

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

I disagree - these small local roads are not able to handle this vehicular through traffic. They were never designed for that purpose. Traffic calming is only addressing the effects not the root cause.

Many local people in your vicinity disagree with your viewpoint based on the following
http://www.tg4.ie/ga/nuacht/?id=925456
and the video link of the same
https://twitter.com/NuachtTG4/status/938485893844811776

Disagree all you like. If someone drives in a responsible manner and is considerate to other road users, including and especially pedestrians and cyclists, a public road which is not a cul de sac is a legitimate route to take. Or are we to turn all non-national roads into gated communities with access restricted to residents and delivery men?

That road has always been an alternative route to the N84 - if you live on a road that is a direct route into the very centre of a large town you can't expect to have that direct access only for yourself. Traffic calming measures may discourage enough of the people using the road for that purpose to suit you and/or residents, but it is and will remain a legitimate route should someone so choose.

fergiesfolly

what_traffic wrote: »

There is no law in Ireland, it does exist on the Continent though .It still is RAT running.

Rat running is the practice of driving through residential areas such as housing estates, as a shortcut. The road being mentioned may be very built up, but it's not a residential area, as such.
If you want to cut off normal roads to all road users, you won't mind paying for its upkeep.

Unrealistic

Zzippy wrote: »

I take that road maybe two mornings a week. yes, some cars go too fast, especially in the 50kmh zone. For those of us who drive according to the speed limit, it's a legitimate alternative route to avoid traffic.

As I mentioned above, sampling showed 98% of drivers using that road during the morning period were exceeding the speed limit. If you are among the 2% that abide by the speed limit I commend you. But you might want to check the speed limits again. You refer to "especially in the 50kmh zone", implying the problem is less outside the 50kmh zone, but I'm pretty sure that entire stretch of road, from Ballindooley through Menlo and into town, is a 50kmh zone. If you've been travelling along it under the impression that only part of it is a 50kmh zone and the rest has a higher limit then you may have been inadvertently breaking the speed limit.


https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3129575,-9.0238305,3a,23.6y,273.54h,84.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scBR1EySDaTRLGVz8Ld9Mtg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DcBR1EySDaTRLGVz8Ld9Mtg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D137.18204%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Zzippy wrote: »

Calling it a rat run has connotations of rat runs in city housing estates with the implication that it should be closed to through traffic.

I disagree. I think it is a textbook definition of a rat run. Drivers leave the N84 at Ballindooley in the hope of rejoining the N84 further in more speedily than if they stayed on it. When you leave a main road with a 100km speed limit, to take a longer distance journey on inferior roads only ever intended for local access in the hope of shortening your journey time, it fits the classic definition of rat running.

Dictionary definition:

rat run noun
​a small road that is used by a lot of drivers who are trying to avoid traffic on larger roads:
"The road through our village has become a rat run for commuters trying to avoid delays on the A14."

You only need to change A14 to N84 and it describes the situation of drivers diverting through Menlo exactly.

Zzippy wrote: »

The road was there long before a lot of the people there moved in.

The road has been there for centuries, so it was there long before anyone who lives there moved in. I don't see what bearing this has on anything?

Zzippy wrote: »

I knew before we bought the house that motorists who don't live locally use the road to get from one place to another. Thankfully most of them obey the speed limit and are considerate to other road users (I walk and cycle myself, as well as being a motorist). If they didn't, I would consider lobbying for some traffic calming measures. I certainly don't consider moving to an area and then expecting the road to be for mine and my neighbours' use only. There's no right or wrong about someone legitimately using a public road, there is only good and bad driving on that road. Bad driving needs to be rooted out and stopped, wherever it occurs.

OK, now I think understand what you were getting at when you referred to the road having been there before the people who live on it. But if you are making the case that people knew there would be through traffic when they bought their houses then this is not actually true. This phenomenon has only really become noticeable in the last 15 years. Only 20 years ago people would have laughed at you if you told them there would be 500+ cars leaving the Headford Road each morning, to drive down a narrow unmarked road only to get back onto the Headford Road, because driving a higgledy piggledy route through an isolated village would be quicker than continuing in a straight line.

Zzippy wrote: »

I live less than 2 km from Ballindooley, on a road that is also used by commuters to cut between the Headford and Tuam roads. When I reach Ballindooley Cross, I can take the N84 into traffic, or the Menlo road into Woodquay, beside where I work. Both are legitimate routes, there is no law that says I must use a national road.

I don't think anyone said there was a law against it but rat running in general is considered to be an undesirable side effect of traffic congestion and measures are taken to discourage it.

Zzippy wrote: »

I get the issue with traffic, I enjoy walking on our road too with kids, but traffic calming and proper speed enforcement is the approach needed, not telling people they are not allowed to drive a certain route. When we moved here we accepted that it was a public road that people used to get from A to B, folks in Menlo are also aware of that.

Certainly those two roads are similar but I believe there is one significant difference. The road between Ballindooley and McHughs connects two main roads running roughly parallel to one another and has been used as a through road since before there were cars. If you're on the Headford Road, say at Clada Group, and you need to get from there to Claregalway then that road has always been the most logical route. The road through Menlo is very different on that front. From Ballindooley the logical route into town is along the Headford Road. Taking a detour through Menlo was never a logical route to get from Ballindooley to town until relatively recently when it became a traffic dodge.

Zzippy wrote: »

Speeding is the issue, not traffic.

For me, yes, speeding is the primary issue.

Zzippy wrote: »

Disagree all you like. If someone drives in a responsible manner and is considerate to other road users, including and especially pedestrians and cyclists, a public road which is not a cul de sac is a legitimate route to take. Or are we to turn all non-national roads into gated communities with access restricted to residents and delivery men?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that on here and I don't think anyone protesting yesterday was advocating for a ban on cars driving through that route. But it is incorrect to suggest that the alternative to a free-for-all is gated communities. If a decision was taken to target rat running then there are ways to achieve it without using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The crudest method would be to just have a sign on the Headford Road that says 'No right turns between 7AM and 9AM'. These are common in other countries and I believe they are also used on a couple of roads in Dublin. That would have the side effect of preventing people who live in Carrowbrowne from bringing their children to Menlo school so not an ideal solution. Another alternative in use in other countries is a camera controlled road signposted Local Access Only. Anyone is free to travel the road at any time but if your number plate is photographed leaving one side of the area within X minutes of having entered on the other side then you are considered as having used it as a through route and you get a fine in the post. I'm not advocating either of these solutions, and I don't think anyone else is, I'm just mentioning them to show that it's not about gated communities or anything close to it.

Zzippy wrote: »

That road has always been an alternative route to the N84

As someone who moved to the area more than 40 years ago I can personally attest that this is completely untrue. Traffic using that route to get to town only became a thing during the peak Celtic Tiger years, lessened significantly by 2010 and then built up again over recent years.

The road through Menlo is:
1) 52% longer in distance than staying on the Headford Road
2) 100% longer in projected travel time than the Headford Road when both roads are clear. (Google Maps projected journey times at 1AM)
3) restricted to 50kmh for its entire duration whereas the Headford Road has higher limits until much closer to the city centre.
4) too narrow for two cars to pass in many places whereas the Headford Road has at least one wide lane in each direction

Why would it ever have been an alternative to the N84 before traffic became unmanageable?

Zzippy wrote: »

if you live on a road that is a direct route into the very centre of a large town you can't expect to have that direct access only for yourself.

As an abstract statement that may be true but it has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Menlo is not on a direct route to anywhere. There are only two roads to Menlo and both lead from the Headford Road. When you get to Menlo your only option is to either turn around or turn 90 degrees and go back to the Headford Road again. It is bounded on two sides by the lake and the river so it is a physical impossibility for it to be on a direct route to anywhere else (until such time as the proposed bridge gets built at least).

Just looking at the map makes it obvious that we're not talking about competing direct routes. We're talking a no-brainer direct route into town versus a pain in the hole meandering back road that takes you away from the direction you're actually trying to reach. It's only because the horrendous traffic makes the main road even more of a pain in the hole that people have started to travel what was previously a nonsensical route best suited to tractor traffic.



I don't even know how this even came down to an argument about what constitutes rat running and what is 'legitimate use' of a route. I'm not a member of the Kirwan Action Group, and I do not speak for them, but I do have some knowledge of the situation so I just replied on this thread because I was able to respond to specific questions that were asked. If someone wants to make the argument that the city has grown and that Menlo, as part of the city, just has to suck it up and accept rat running to ease pressure on other routes then that would at least be honest. To an extent I might agree with that as an equitable statement, although it would be easier to accept if we actually had a local government system that could work towards a joined up transport strategy. But pretending it isn't rat running or that it is some traditional route not one newly created by congestion just rings hollow.

Unrealistic

flazio wrote: »

Like many, I've used Menlo to get onto Bothair Na Treabh after business in the cinema retail park and or Galway shopping centre. Cuts out Dunnes catastrophic traffic lights.

That's actually the Dyke Road rather than Menlo. If you had continued straight, instead of turning right to go down the hill to the Kirwan Roundabout to get on to Bothar na dTreabh, then you would have been heading towards Menlo. The Dyke Road isn't actually too bad. For most of its length it has footpaths and is wide enough for two cars to meet without having to slow down. But that only continues for another 700m on the way to Menlo. The remaining 5km from there to Ballindooley is a local road where pedestrians and cars share the same space and in many places is not even wide enough for two cars to pass when they meet. You either slow down, if the space is wide enough, or where it isn't one car has to stop at a suitable spot to let the other past. Sometimes you even find yourself having to reverse to find a spot where the car facing you can pass. This is the what the first stretch of that road looks like.

Unrealistic

Curly head wrote: »

That road is way too dangerous for cycling

I cycle on it occasionally and it can indeed be hairy. Especially on the first stretch from Menlo towards town. The road gets wider from there in, so people naturally speed up, but there are lots of bends so it can take short wait to get a clear view to do a safe overtake. I'll have someone pass me on a blind bend at least once each time I cycle that road. The worst was some lady in a 20 year old Toyota a couple of months ago who tried to fly around me on the first bend as you leave Menlo. As soon as she pulled out two cars came around the bend towards her. She chose to point her car back at me to avoid a head on collision and jammed on the brakes. Lots of squealing tyres (ABS not working?) and she came to a halt inches from the back wheel of my bike. And then drove off as if nothing had happened.....

Unrealistic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sounds to me like they need some serious traffic calming measures along the alternative routes.

I don't know how effective that would be. As you'll see from the picture above, you might expect that the narrowness of the road might act as a traffic calming measure but it doesn't seem to.

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Tirellan has plenty of traffic calming measures in place for many years.

I gather it has helped there but has far from eliminated the problem. One of the community pages mentioned that gardai had been active in the estate recently issuing speeding fines to those using it as a shortcut to the Dyke Road.

what_traffic

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Rat running is the practice of driving through residential areas such as housing estates, as a shortcut. The road being mentioned may be very built up, but it's not a residential area, as such.
If you want to cut off normal roads to all road users, you won't mind paying for its upkeep.

Incorrect - this is rat running through Menlo/Ballindooley. If people are diverting off National Roads to go on Local Roads (these are not Regional roads) to bypass CAR traffic jams on the National Road then this is the definition of Rat Running. These local roads will actual need less maintenance if you cut out rat running. As stated before they were never engineererd for this volume of vehicular traffic. As a result you would be saving tax payers money (which is everybody in the Country)

fergiesfolly

what_traffic wrote: »

Incorrect - this is rat running through Menlo/Ballindooley. If people are diverting off National Roads to go on Local Roads (these are not Regional roads) to bypass CAR traffic jams on the National Road then this is the definition of Rat Running. These local roads will actual need less maintenance if you cut out rat running. As stated before they were never engineererd for this volume of vehicular traffic. As a result you would be saving tax payers money (which is everybody in the Country)

They're part of the public road network. Roads in housing estates were never envisaged as part of a road network to facilitate all users, but as access for residents only. The road to Menlo goes through the village and onto other destinations and was there and being used by anyone and everyone before all the homes on it.
Finally..What road built 100+ years ago was engineered for modern traffic?
I'm sure it's not comfortable for residents having large volumes of traffic on the road. But a lot would have purchased or built their properties because of the ease of access to Galway and should've considered that other road users would also look at that route for the very same reason. Traffic volumes are definitely a situation I would look at when purchasing

what_traffic

fergiesfolly wrote: »

They're part of the public road network. Roads in housing estates were never envisaged as part of a road network to facilitate all users, but as access for residents only. The road to Menlo goes through the village and onto other destinations and was there and being used by anyone and everyone before all the homes on it.
Finally..What road built 100+ years ago was engineered for modern traffic?
I'm sure it's not comfortable for residents having large volumes of traffic on the road. But a lot would have purchased or built their properties because of the ease of access to Galway and should've considered that other road users would also look at that route for the very same reason. Traffic volumes are definitely a situation I would look at when purchasing

The hint is in the name. "Local Roads". Unless you have business(does not mean shopping) in the locality, you should not be using them for your rat run commute to avoid the car traffic on the national roads.

dok_golf

Thats not actually true. There is nothing to stop anyone using a public road i.e. where the local authority pays for its upkeep. Whether it is morally correct is a different question

fergiesfolly

what_traffic wrote: »

The hint is in the name. "Local Roads". Unless you have business(does not mean shopping) in the locality, you should not be using them for your rat run commute to avoid the car traffic on the national roads.

Those roads are for everyone's use and there's no point in arguing otherwise. Haven't been on that road for a decade or more, as I live, work and shop in the city. But I might go for a spin some evening. As is my right.

xckjoo

Is there not a difference between what you can and can't do and what's sh1tty? Nobody should have to put up with large volumes of cars passing very close to their house at high speeds on roads that aren't even built to handle it. That's a fairly low bar to want for citizens of this country.

ronnie3585

Our local gombeen men (and women) have voted to turn the Kirwan roundabout into traffic light junction - http://galwaybayfm.ie/councillors-vote-favour-traffic-lights-menlo-park-roundabout-city/.

what_traffic

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Those roads are for everyone's use and there's no point in arguing otherwise. Haven't been on that road for a decade or more, as I live, work and shop in the city. But I might go for a spin some evening. As is my right.

I do not know why you quoted me. The point you make here shows perfectly acceptable behaviour. By your own admission you are not using this road as a daily rat run. Once off visits, spins etc is perfectly fine

Mrs OBumble

ronnie3585 wrote: »

Our local gombeen men (and women) have voted to turn the Kirwan roundabout into traffic light junction - http://galwaybayfm.ie/councillors-vote-favour-traffic-lights-menlo-park-roundabout-city/.

Good.

Roundabouts are not suitable where there are high volumes and pedestrians crossing double lanes.

ronnie3585

ronnie3585 wrote: »

Our local gombeen men (and women) have voted to turn the Kirwan roundabout into traffic light junction - http://galwaybayfm.ie/councillors-vote-favour-traffic-lights-menlo-park-roundabout-city/.

"Other councillors in favour of the traffic lights emphasised that the scientific data showed this to be the best solution"

As long as what they have said is true, I can't see why people are against this proposal. I'd rather trust scientific data, than some people on a forum

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

I do not know why you quoted me. The point you make here shows perfectly acceptable behaviour. By your own admission you are not using this road as a daily rat run. Once off visits, spins etc is perfectly fine

Who decides who has legitimate business using a road? You? The council? The fact is the city has outgrown the infrastructure around it, and arterial roads are choked at rush hour. If people find an alternative route that saves them time they will use it. If they are obeying speed limits they are doing nothing wrong. The solution to increased traffic volumes is to provide alternatives such as better infrastructure, better traffic management, integrated public transport that works, better facilities for cycling, etc. to encourage them to use arterial routes or alternative modes of transport, and traffic management to discourage bad driving on "local" roads.

Criticising people who are doing nothing wrong won't get you anywhere.
Telling people "well you're fine cos it's only occasional, but you're a **** cos you're here twice a week" which is basically your attitude, is not going to win any arguments.

ronnie3585

Deleted User wrote: »

"Other councillors in favour of the traffic lights emphasised that the scientific data showed this to be the best solution"

As long as what they have said is true, I can't see why people are against this proposal. I'd rather trust scientific data, than some people on a forum

I recall the many references that were made to 'scientific data' when the SQR development was proposed, which turned out to be one of the greatest fu*k ups in the city's sad infrastructural history.

ronnie3585

ronnie3585 wrote: »

I recall the many references that were made to 'scientific data' when the SQR development was proposed, which turned out to be one of the greatest fu*k ups in the city's sad infrastructural history.

Sure the construction had its problems, but the end result is better for the majority of users

xckjoo

Zzippy wrote: »

Who decides who has legitimate business using a road? You? The council? The fact is the city has outgrown the infrastructure around it, and arterial roads are choked at rush hour. If people find an alternative route that saves them time they will use it. If they are obeying speed limits they are doing nothing wrong. The solution to increased traffic volumes is to provide alternatives such as better infrastructure, better traffic management, integrated public transport that works, better facilities for cycling, etc. to encourage them to use arterial routes or alternative modes of transport, and traffic management to discourage bad driving on "local" roads.

Criticising people who are doing nothing wrong won't get you anywhere.
Telling people "well you're fine cos it's only occasional, but you're a **** cos you're here twice a week" which is basically your attitude, is not going to win any arguments.

I'd criticise the system that causes people to use those roads, not the road users.

Separately though, individuals are responsible for how they drive in terms of speed, care, etc. I'm not familiar with the road but based on how people drive in general, I'm going to guess that there's a lot of cars flying through as fast as they can. I'm not sure if those issues are related or not but it would be nice if we could keep cars and people more separate than they currently are.

ronnie3585 wrote: »

I recall the many references that were made to 'scientific data' when the SQR development was proposed, which turned out to be one of the greatest fu*k ups in the city's sad infrastructural history.

What's the SQR development?

what_traffic

I would not have guessed there would be many rat runners on this forum, would not have thought so for a City Forum. If it was the Galway Country forum then would understand the hostility.

If we had functioning local Government, then it would be the Council that should decide what roads should be for local access only, this is not unusual and is common in other European country's. I am not re-inventing the wheel, just taking best practice from elsewhere.
However it is not in Galway City Councils financial interest to do this as they currently make most money (independently of Central Government) from Car Parking, they need and want to funnel as much cars into the City Centre as possible.

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

Criticising people who are doing nothing wrong won't get you anywhere.
Telling people "well you're fine cos it's only occasional, but you're a **** cos you're here twice a week DAY" which is basically your attitude, is not going to win any arguments.

I corrected that for you.
I am talking about Daily Rat Running on local roads in the vicinity of Galway City. Every day, for many people it is now 6 out of 7 days a week that this occurs in there locality.
I may not win arguments with the rat runners themselves, but hopefully will win arguments with people who have to live on such local roads and who have to put up with this daily issue.

what_traffic

xckjoo wrote: »

What's the SQR development?

SQR = Seamus Quirke Road (scheme referred too by ronnie3585 also includes Bishop O Donnell Road)

Robbo

Zzippy wrote: »

Who decides who has legitimate business using a road?

A man in a hi-viz; wearing plastic pants and wielding a flask of Bovril.

D Trent

Robbo wrote: »

A man in a hi-viz; wearing plastic pants and wielding a flask of Bovril.

With three cigarettes hanging off the bottom lip...

joeKel73

ronnie3585 wrote: »

Our local gombeen men (and women) have voted to turn the Kirwan roundabout into traffic light junction - http://galwaybayfm.ie/councillors-vote-favour-traffic-lights-menlo-park-roundabout-city/.

Great news.

That roundabout is a disaster for cyclists, a challenge for a lot of commuters that are coming from town or over the bridge and heading towards Parkmore.

Every day there's a steady stream of motorists coming from Dunnes/Town and using the outside lane all the way around to the Bothar na dTreabh exit. This means cyclists (and rule-abiding motorists) can't move to the outside lane of the roundabout to take that exit and end up in the fast/overtaking lane on Bothar na dTreabh, often with motorists overtaking on the left.

Mrs OBumble

what_traffic wrote: »

I would not have guessed there would be many rat runners on this forum, would not have thought so for a City Forum. If it was the Galway Country forum then would understand the hostility.

Oh dear - I'm a public transport advocate, and only an occasional car-user. But even I think that attempting to vilify people as RATS is the wrong approach: if a local road attracts traffic away from a main road, then the right approach is systemic eg traffic calming, not name calling or rules ( which people routinely ignore anyway).

Or maybe the local road needs upgrading - i can think of one place in the east of the city where what you call rat running actually cut two troublesome intersection out of the journey of people living one suburb over, so the council upgraded the boreen to make it better for everyone.

I don't follow why this group seem to be against the proposed upgrade of the Kirwan roundabout.

If all goes to plan cars should move through the junction more efficiently reducing the need to rat run and they will have an additional lane approaching town to reduce the length of the queue.

Do they believe that people presented with two additional sets of traffic lights rather than one roundabout will avoid the lights?

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

I corrected that for you.
I am talking about Daily Rat Running on local roads in the vicinity of Galway City. Every day, for many people it is now 6 out of 7 days a week that this occurs in there locality.
I may not win arguments with the rat runners themselves, but hopefully will win arguments with people who have to live on such local roads and who have to put up with this daily issue.

So, NIMBYism is fine then? This isn't a housing estate we're talking about, this is a public road which is an alternative route from Ballindooley Cross to Woodquay that removes traffic, one roundabout and at least 4 sets of traffic lights from the same journey. That's a problem with the infrastructure, not with people. If people are speeding on the road then they should be punished. If they are driving under the limit you have zero argument. I guess it's easier lazier to call people rats than look at the bigger picture of why they're using the road and campaign on that issue.