Dog problem

L1985

Hi all. Firstly please be kind with your comments as I'm very upset over this.
I have an 2year old shepdog. She's a farm dog but a pet as well-she's currently lying in front of the fire as we speak. Have her around18mths. She's v timid around strangers and would be a small type of collie.We have two other dogs an old lab and a three month old pup. So here is the problem....around 2months ago she killed theee hens on us in two days. We hadn't copped on the first two....our rule has always been if dogs attack hens we have to get rid of them....however we locked her in when we were leaving then hens out and she was literally out for 5mins and got another one. So ever since we have been locking her in for roughly the 2-3hours that the hens have been left out for. But a few hens literally flew the coop the other day and she went for another one!! I don't know what to do. We can't leave the hens locked in as their run is small enough and they are used to running around. We were compromising with keeping her in but that doesn't seem to be enough. My dads going ballistic over it and says it will be cows calving she goes after next!! I think I'll find it hard to find a home for her as she wouldn't be the best looking dog although v affectionate and protective. So I'm at my wits end-dads not happy at all and I can't really blame him but I don't want her ending up in the pound....

jellybear

Awh it's a very difficult situation. Could you cover their run so they can't fly out? I know you mentioned about the size of the run, would there be any way of extending it at all?

L1985

We could but the thing is we love having the free range hens and the difference in the taste and quality of the eggs is huge. The run can't be extended as it's attached on to their house which is where the hens come out through the window. I don't feel it's fair on the hens as they love going out and really love pottering around outside....so annoyed with her as I don't know what made her change and start going for them. I was thinking a muzzle but don't know how fair that is either!! And if she will still just chase them. And she's such a sweet dog!!
Also she was abused in her first home and it still shows as she's petrified of sticks and isn't that mad on men although she's improved.

Gorgeousgeorge

<snip>
Go way out of that with comments advocating cruelty.
User banned

L1985

Can't catch her-if we had got her with the first one it might have. She got a bucket thrown at her the other day and she hid in the house for the rest of the day but I don't know if she connects the two as she's so scared of things being thrown it nearly traumatises her( she was abused) and I don't think she connects the two things. She wouldn't look at my dad for 2days ( it had to be thrown as she was ignoring my Mam and attacking the hen who luckily survived)

fepper

Could you put some type of a muzzle on the dog for now

jellybear

L1985 wrote: »

We could but the thing is we love having the free range hens and the difference in the taste and quality of the eggs is huge. The run can't be extended as it's attached on to their house which is where the hens come out through the window. I don't feel it's fair on the hens as they love going out and really love pottering around outside....so annoyed with her as I don't know what made her change and start going for them. I was thinking a muzzle but don't know how fair that is either!! And if she will still just chase them. And she's such a sweet dog!!
Also she was abused in her first home and it still shows as she's petrified of sticks and isn't that mad on men although she's improved.

Awh you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place aren't you. My only suggestion would be to stagger times they're out as best you can. If you give your dog a good run/play in the morning hopefully she'll sleep for a couple of hours so you could let the hens out. Or would a Kong or bone keep her attention if she's out with them?

Latatian

They can be trained out of it but it takes time and effort. And she needs to never ever be in a situation where something going wrong would mean a hen's death, so a muzzle and a long leash (can be got in the pound shop) used together whenever she is around them. You can keep her muzzled (basket muzzle) and tied out or inside the house while you are training her. Work on good self control and obedience around distractions.

Just the muzzle might not be fair on the hens as she can still frighten them badly.

CeilingFly

Very difficult situation - maybe ask a vet or dog trainer / behaviourist for advice.

Possibly a territorial issue?

If she has to go, then maybe ask local shelter for advice and see if they can rehome her without actually having to take her in.

Similarly the vet may know someone looking for that type of dog.

dudara

fepper wrote: »

Could you put some type of a muzzle on the dog for now

She would probably still chase and harass the hens, who could still die.

Restraining her away from the hens is the only temporary solution available.

This kind of behaviour is really hard to modify in dogs, and it’s every farmer’s worst nightmare. Hopefully someone here has experience of it. If she continues to do it, you won’t be able to rehome her near livestock.

L1985

You see that's what we were doing and then the hen got out and she went for her. She gets plenty of exercise as we are on a farm and she's quite happy in her bed when we put her in. Just long term I don't know how it's going to work-and my dads going mad. I hate the idea of a muzzle but it might be an option for now. She's so unpredictable as that hens got out before and she's ignored her. It's just when she gets over excited if the tractors going or something that she seems to do it. It's not from boredom. Her and the pup play together the whole time and there is always someone at home. She has a ridiculous amount of space to run around in.

Latatian

I've done it before myself so it can be done. My dog killed a few of our own hens and we stopped it. Don't remember how but if a fool like me can do it...

irishlady29

Gorgeousgeorge wrote:

<snip>

Please don't take this as advice.

L1985

Yeah-two issues is we did the above training when we got her as that's what we normally do. The other issue is it's only when she's over excited that she does it and she's nervy on the lead so she won't get over excited.... this is the training we did for our pup now whose a brazen little fella so the lead works v well and you can reprimand her. The shepdog cowers and I know there isn't a hope of her doing it on the lead. I had huge hassle lead training her to begin with! I'm hoping someone has a magic solution.... we are fairly good at training dogs usually like.
On the hitting a dog -I'll be honest I would do it if I thought it would work as a smack today would save her from needing to be rehomed and that's preferable and save our poor hens.And I'd never give a full whack but a tap can work as it's the fright more then a anything.

Cherry Blossom

Rehoming is 100% a better option than hitting a dog.

deadlybuzzman

It can definitely be done. I follow a farming couple from nebraska on instagram that got a bouvier de flandres (a pretty serious dog) to guard their stock from coyotes.
At the start it killed a couple of their chickens and stalked some of the other animals but it then came good.
Other people will give you better specific advice than me but until they do exercise that dog hard to get that energy out. A tired dog will be inclined to do far less and will be more able to be trained

L1985

Sorry just to comment on the rehoming is better then hitting the dog. I'm talking about giving her a fright and making her associate chasing the hens with that fright not full on belting her with a stick. I honestly don't think she could get a much better home then the one we provide and I'm scared if I give her to somewhere else she won't be as happy. She's use to her freedom and having people around. So I do think giving her a fright one time is better then the alternative. I've had her for 18 months and have never hit her but on a farm it's a working environment as well and dogs need to be part of that. We have our lab 12years and he has never been slapped (he is a bit of a goody two shoes) However the pup got a slap off me a few weeks ago for going into the pen and chasing cows and calves around the pen. She had thought it was great fun until that point. And she hasn't done it since. It's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again and she doesn't either get herself killed or cause harm to the calves!

However the shepdog is different as she's come from an abusive environment it would be a completely different reaction and wouldn't work. I adore our dogs but if they are being bold they get told so!! That's why I'm so upset as I can't see any way to train her out of it given her temperament.

kathleen37

Honestly, slapping or hitting a dog is never a good thing.

In the interim, you need to get her a cage type muzzle, so she can bark and drink through it. As has been mentioned, she could still kill a chicken using claws though, so you will still need to take care. Any dog out and about not on a lead needs to have excellent recall. Respectfully, seems like that's missing from both your pups.

Have you spoken to a dog trainer? I believe if people know where abouts in the country you are, they will be able to recommend some reputable ones.

I hope you can get sorted. This isn't the dogs fault and you're to be commended for taking on a pup that has had such a rotten start. If you put in the effort, I'm sure you'll be able to get these issues sorted

Knine

How about an enclosed area for the dog that she can go in when you are not able to supervise her? Like a dog run?

L1985

I think the run might work-I just hate having her confined TBH as we never do with any of the dogs as we don't need to. Her recalls perfect with me but not as much as with my Mam. The little pup is only a baby so she's still learning (like running into a pen with 600kilo mammys and annoy then may not be a smart idea!!) the only thing is that's what we were doing with her in putting her into the house and that hen still got out.... also it's fine now in the winter but come summer the hens are out until 11 and I don't think keeping her in a run for 7 hours a day is fair.....
It's horrible as we don't want to penalise her or the hens for as someone pointed out it's not her fault. I've persuaded dad to wait until after xmas anyway as I said no one would take her in the run up.
Re a trainer I'd be willing to try it but as she's so nervy she will have problems interacting with anyone else and again I don't see her attacking a hen if there is something else going on. She's v much my dog.

sillysmiles

Have you trained her to commands like leave? Once she is rock solid on leaving things, then you can start with her on a lead near the hens and tell her to leave and reward for leaving the hens alone.
Our dog is overly appreciative of sheep so when we are walking past sheep he get told to leave them, or if he looks at them he gets bad dog voice and when he leaves/walks past without looking at the them he gets good dog.
We don't own sheep so we don't do this every day but I think you have the dog and the hens - you have what you need to actively train the dog to leave the hens alone.

I know you say she's not bored as she is playing with the other dog, but what's keeping her mind active? what is mentally challenging her?

em_cat

L1985 wrote: »

However the shepdog is different as she's come from an abusive environment it would be a completely different reaction and wouldn't work. I adore our dogs but if they are being bold they get told so!! That's why I'm so upset as I can't see any way to train her out of it given her temperament.

If your pup is a sheepdog, you really need to teach her herding commands. If you don't know where to start, look it up on youtube.

Latatian

It is pretty normal to have collies confined (not let outside unsupervised) if you have livestock, particularly if you train them as sheepdogs. They can be obsessive about controlling the livestock or chasing. I've known a fool get rid of a good dog because he refused to confine it and it was exhausting itself and the sheep. It's not penalizing her, just letting her rest and keeping everyone safe. Obviously you would still walk her and bring her out to play with the other dog and train her.

L1985

Latatian wrote: »

It is pretty normal to have collies confined (not let outside unsupervised) if you have livestock, particularly if you train them as sheepdogs. They can be obsessive about controlling the livestock or chasing. I've known a fool get rid of a good dog because he refused to confine it and it was exhausting itself and the sheep. It's not penalizing her, just letting her rest and keeping everyone safe. Obviously you would still walk her and bring her out to play with the other dog and train her.

Thanks for all of the advice. Yes about her being trained. Unfortunately as stupid as this sounds our cattle have been trained and they all follow me. Which makes it really hard to train the shepdog!!! We would love to have her trained and I trained the last one but have quitened the cattle since then. Does anyone know any dog trainers in the sth east? She knows stay but stay more in the lines of don't follow me...she's picks up commands ridiculously quick I just havnt done a huge amount of them with her as didn't see the need. I think this is the way we have to go. I work m-f so times at a premium. I just have to start confining her more which I hate doing but to doesn't seem to bother her when I do! Just have to talk my parents around!!

aonb

OP, you are obviously a dog lover, and a good owner.
I have dogs - terriers at that - and hens
They can co-exist.
Youve got a bit of a disadvantage as your bitch having been abused is going to be tricky to train being nervous on leash etc. But you did say that she is very quick to pick up new commands, so you have that advantage.
How would she be in a harness as opposed to a leash?
Our hens are free range - agree with you on the superior quality of the eggs.
The dogs are free range too, so they had to learn that they could not harm the hens. I put the dogs on a short leash. Carried a little thin stick. Walked around the hens. Anytime a dog lunged for a hen, I would use cross voice NO! and smack the stick against my wellie (terrifying sound!!!) This went on for several sessions. At one stage a hen was grabbed by a dog as she strolled past us :eek: He dropped her pretty quickly (minus a couple of feathers) when I yanked the leash, shouted NO! and walloped my wellie !! Then treats when things went well and they ignored or didnt lunge at the hens. Now the hens peck the dogs, and the dogs totally ignore the hens.

Do you have a cockeral? Might be an idea to get one? Or could you go to someones place where they have one. Try commands on your dog to LEAVE IT! when they approach a hen. Practise first on something like a football - when she approaches it command LEAVE IT! A treat when she does and lots of fussing over her. Then when she has got the idea, try her on a cockeral or hen

Wish you success - let us know how you go?

L1985

aonb that's the best advice I've gotten. I might try her in the chicken coop and work with her that way. The harness could be better. I'll try that training with the new pup as well. Noise deff has an impact with training and it's something I think could really work as she knows when she's being told off and in such close proximity she will find it hard to resist and she's comfortable with me. I'll keep you updated but I'm hopeful that will work!!
Yes we have a cockerel he's old thou 7/8 I think? He doesn't go for the dogs thou!

deadlybuzzman

aonb wrote: »

OP, you are obviously a dog lover, and a good owner.
I have dogs - terriers at that - and hens
They can co-exist.
Youve got a bit of a disadvantage as your bitch having been abused is going to be tricky to train being nervous on leash etc. But you did say that she is very quick to pick up new commands, so you have that advantage.
How would she be in a harness as opposed to a leash?
Our hens are free range - agree with you on the superior quality of the eggs.
The dogs are free range too, so they had to learn that they could not harm the hens. I put the dogs on a short leash. Carried a little thin stick. Walked around the hens. Anytime a dog lunged for a hen, I would use cross voice NO! and smack the stick against my wellie (terrifying sound!!!) This went on for several sessions. At one stage a hen was grabbed by a dog as she strolled past us :eek: He dropped her pretty quickly (minus a couple of feathers) when I yanked the leash, shouted NO! and walloped my wellie !! Then treats when things went well and they ignored or didnt lunge at the hens. Now the hens peck the dogs, and the dogs totally ignore the hens.

Do you have a cockeral? Might be an idea to get one? Or could you go to someones place where they have one. Try commands on your dog to LEAVE IT! when they approach a hen. Practise first on something like a football - when she approaches it command LEAVE IT! A treat when she does and lots of fussing over her. Then when she has got the idea, try her on a cockeral or hen

Wish you success - let us know how you go?

That's brilliant advice. I'm only just after spotting that she's a pup. She's going to have tons of energy that needs to be vented too. Just like with people that have high levels of energy if it's not used up in a good way it can come out in destructive ways

L1985

Hi all. Bit of an update- a friend of our families have offered to take her. The hens got out accidentally yesterday which meant the shepdog was locked in for 7 hours. That will be her life in the summer as the hens don't go to bed until 10/10:30 and we can't trust her anymore running loose with them. This friend of the families has another dog and he will be around a fair bit. I'm only hoping she gets on with his dog. I really hate to lose her but I have to be fair to her as well and I know she's going to a good home. I'll see her at least once a week as well -I'm just devastated at the thought of handing her over but that would be selfishness on my part keeping her....

deadlybuzzman

That's probably best all around. Best of luck to your dog.

aonb

L1985 wrote: »

Hi all. Bit of an update- a friend of our families have offered to take her. The hens got out accidentally yesterday which meant the shepdog was locked in for 7 hours. That will be her life in the summer as the hens don't go to bed until 10/10:30 and we can't trust her anymore running loose with them. This friend of the families has another dog and he will be around a fair bit. I'm only hoping she gets on with his dog. I really hate to lose her but I have to be fair to her as well and I know she's going to a good home. I'll see her at least once a week as well -I'm just devastated at the thought of handing her over but that would be selfishness on my part keeping her....

To make the transition to the new home with its resident dog as smooth as possible, it might be a good idea to have a plan. I would take the two dogs for a couple of walks someplace other than their home territory. Lots of treats. Maybe the person taking your dog, could have you and the your dog come to visit for a couple of very short visits, while the other dog is around. Just a quick visit in and out first, then for a cuppa, then for another onger visit. So that your dog can explore and feel easy while you are there. When you do hand her over, make sure to bring her bed, and a blanket thats been in your house/smells of you. Make sure too to bring a few days of her own food - so that she will have that to help the settling in process.