Motor insurance mess

Golf4GolfGti

Hi all,

Here is the dilemma:

My partner is on her provisional licence with 12 lessons logged and has 4 months driving experience on my policy.

I went to insure her online through a certain company. One of the questions was (i) does the driver have any named driving experience; answered ; yes
followed by
(ii) How long; Answer options were in years, 0 or 1,2,3,4 etc; I selected the over being 1 with a view to confirming the exact amount with them once the documents arrived out.

They arrived at a premium of €1329; we paid the up front €230 online and awaited the documents. The documents arrived showing the premium and discount breakdown summary as follows:



They asked us to send proof of the driving experience so I retrieved this letter from my insurance company and sent it in.

They then emailed us the following:
"We would like to confirm receipt of the below information and have made a note of this in your file.

Unfortunately your discount has been removed off your policy, as you had not been insured for 1 full year. The increase in premium is €2012.74, which will be divided up and applied to your 9 remaining instalments. Your November's instalment will remain at its original amount of €106.35, however December's instalment will increase by €402.58 and from January onwards the 8 remaining instalments will increase by €201.27.

You will receive confirmation of the above within the next 5 working days. "

They stated that the discount for named driving experience was 790euro but now are adding back 2000euro for the same thing...

To date we have not signed the policy or driven the car on the policy; they have the first €230 and another month of €110 was just taken today by direct debit.

They have informed me on the phone that to cancel the policy we must pay 30% of the total premium.

This seems pretty hefty that we would be down the guts of (230+110+(1329*30%)) €740.

Any advice much appreciated; are we within our rights to reverse the direct debits back into our account and setup a policy with another company (we have had a quote of €2,100 elsewhere)

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

AudreyHepburn

OP if I am reading your post correctly you gave the insurer incorrect information deliberately. That’s non disclosure, effectively a form of fraud - I don’t see how you can think they are being unfair or asking for too much money when it is you yourself that are at fault.

You have only two choices here - either accept the increase in price or cancel the policy subject to the insurer’s cancellation conditions and take up a new policy this time giving the correct information to whoever you go with.

Also if the car is in your partner’s name you should not be insuring it - this is fronting and is also a form of fraud.

ravima

Even worse, if you let the current insurer cancel the policy, then you will have to disclose to any subsequent insurer that you propose to, that you had a policy cancelled.

Telling lies to insurers costs a lot!

AudreyHepburn

ravima wrote: »

Even worse, if you let the current insurer cancel the policy, then you will have to disclose to any subsequent insurer that you propose to, that you had a policy cancelled.

Telling lies to insurers costs a lot!

Either way he’ll have to tell the new insurer - they’ll want to know about previously cancelled policies.

Golf4GolfGti

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

OP if I am reading your post correctly you gave the insurer incorrect information deliberately. That’s non disclosure, effectively a form of fraud - I don’t see how you can think they are being unfair or asking for too much money when it is you yourself that are at fault.

You have only two choices here - either accept the increase in price or cancel the policy subject to the insurer’s cancellation conditions and take up a new policy this time giving the correct information to whoever you go with.

Also if the car is in your partner’s name you should be insuring it - this is fronting and is also a form of fraud.

No you are not reading it correctly; the car is not owned by me. Insurance company had no problem speaking over the phone and corresponding with me once they confirmed account details.
Mis-information was given as most companies give option to type exact amount of driving experience time. Said company had option of 0 or 1 year; so I chose 1 with a view to talking to them before policy was signed or car was driven to confirm exact amount of driving experience which is what we did.

Not looking for someone on a war path accusing me of fraud. I wonder what industry you work in......:D

Sleeper12

Your best bet is to pay the extra & keep the policy. That way you won't have a cancelled policy on your history. Also the fraud part just goes away as your present insurers will treat it as a mistake rather than deliberate

Golf4GolfGti

ravima wrote: »

Even worse, if you let the current insurer cancel the policy, then you will have to disclose to any subsequent insurer that you propose to, that you had a policy cancelled.

Telling lies to insurers costs a lot!

The policy is not signed so is there anything to cancel?

Golf4GolfGti

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Your best bet is to pay the extra & keep the policy. That way you won't have a cancelled policy on your history. Also the fraud part just goes away as your present insurers will treat it as a mistake rather than deliberate

Yes, but the problem here is that they have just gone and picked an extortionate figure out of the sky; I have since gotten quotes of between 2000-2300 from other companies. They are bumping up to 3400!

AudreyHepburn

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

No you are not reading it correctly; the car is not owned by me. Insurance company had no problem speaking over the phone and corresponding with me once they confirmed account details.
Mis-information was given as most companies give option to type exact amount of driving experience time. Said company had option of 0 or 1 year; so I chose 1 with a view to talking to them before policy was signed or car was driven to confirm exact amount of driving experience which is what we did.

Not looking for someone on a war path accusing me of fraud. I wonder what industry you work in......:D

I have never made any secret of my occupation- you asked for advice or if there was any way around cancellation or taking higher charges and I answered you.

If you knowingly put down incorrect information when taking out insurance that’s fraud whether you like it or not.

Given the options you mention above why didn’t you pick 0? This would have been the correct option as your partner does not have one full year of Named Driving Experience.

I stand corrected on the ownership of the car however.

AudreyHepburn

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

Yes, but the problem here is that they have just gone and picked an extortionate figure out of the sky; I have since gotten quotes of between 2000-2300 from other companies. They are bumping up to 3400!

I can assure you they haven’t done any such thing - my guess is they will have gone into your policy on their system, updated the NDE information and allowed the system to recalculate price.

At the end of the day OP you cannot expect an insurer not to penalize you for deliberately giving incorrect information, regardless of why you did it.

Golf4GolfGti

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have never made any secret of my occupation- you asked for advice or if there was any way around cancellation or taking higher charges and I answered you.

If you knowingly put down incorrect information when taking out insurance that’s fraud whether you like it or not.

Given that options you mention above why didn’t you pick 0? This would have been the correct option as your partner does not have one full year of Named Driving Experience.

I stand corrected on the ownership of the car however.

The selection of 1 year was a mistake yes; not an intention to defraud; all experience has to be backed up with documentation like which they requested and got so it would not make sense to purposefully try and defraud this way.

However, now that the insurance company have us trapped (from how you are describing) they can bump the premium up as high as they want which they have done.

Who are the real fraudsters here.... (hint; your whole industry)

368100

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

No you are not reading it correctly; the car is not owned by me. Insurance company had no problem speaking over the phone and corresponding with me once they confirmed account details.
Mis-information was given as most companies give option to type exact amount of driving experience time. Said company had option of 0 or 1 year; so I chose 1 with a view to talking to them before policy was signed or car was driven to confirm exact amount of driving experience which is what we did.

Not looking for someone on a war path accusing me of fraud. I wonder what industry you work in......:D

OP that's just a typical boards keyboard warrior response. It happens all the time that people just ask for a bit of help and they get spoken down to like a child. Don't worry about it.

Sleeper12

Golf4GolfGti wrote:

Yes, but the problem here is that they have just gone and picked an extortionate figure out of the sky; I have since gotten quotes of between 2000-2300 from other companies. They are bumping up to 3400!

Yes but you lied to them. I'm not saying that you did it deliberately. Now you have a choice. Pay the amount they want or cancel.

Cancelling will cost you money and you will find out that the cheaper quotes won't be offered to you when you tell them that you've had a policy cancelled on you. Once they hear this they want to know why. Once they find out that you were fraudulent they will blacklist you for life.

What about taking your gf / wife off the policy for the year?

Insurance companies don't like fraudulent applications or claims. They'd rather have someone banned from driving several times or even a really bad driver with a history of claims.

AudreyHepburn

368100 wrote: »

OP that's just a typical boards keyboard warrior response. It happens all the time that people just ask for a bit of help and they get spoken down to like a child. Don't worry about it.

I’m not trying to talk down to anyone - I’m simply calling the situation as I see it and giving the OP the only advice I can give in this situation.

What else would you expect the insurers to do when presented with wrong information?

AudreyHepburn

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

The selection of 1 year was a mistake yes; not an intention to defraud; all experience has to be backed up with documentation like which they requested and got so it would not make sense to purposefully try and defraud this way.

However, now that the insurance company have us trapped (from how you are describing) they can bump the premium up as high as they want which they have done.

Who are the real fraudsters here.... (hint; your whole industry)

Regardless of whether it was a genuine mistake or deliberate non disclosure the point remains you led the insurers to believe your partner has significantly more driving experience then she really does. Of course they’re going to hike the premium.

Do you really honestly expect them to just ignore it?

The Muppet

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

Given the options you mention above why didn’t you pick 0? This would have been the correct option as your partner does not have one full year of Named Driving Experience.
.

But that would be incorrect too as the ops partner has driving experience. It looks to me that the form is badly designed and confusing . Hardly the ops fault.

Re cancelling policy . Do they not ask if uou have had a policy cancelled . The op could answer no to this if he cancelled the policy .

If this was purchased on line there should be a cooling off period where the op can cancel without penalty.

AudreyHepburn

The Muppet wrote: »

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But that would be incorrect too as the ops partner has driving experience. It looks to me that the form is badly dedigned and confusing . Hardly the ops fault.

Any insurer will tell you that if you have less than 1 Year’s driving experience in your own name or on someone else’s policy you should note
it as zero.

I’ll accept that the online forms aren’t ideal but that doesnt mean it’s ok to give the Insurers false information knowingly.

AudreyHepburn

The Muppet wrote: »

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But that would be incorrect too as the ops partner has driving experience. It looks to me that the form is badly designed and confusing . Hardly the ops fault.

Re cancelling policy . Do they not ask if uou have had a policy cancelled . The op could answer no to this if he cancelled the policy .

If this was purchased on line there should be a cooling off period where the op can cancel without penalty.

It depends on how the question is asked I suppose.

There would be a cooling off period yes, usually 14 days. There’s nothing to stop an insurer imposing a cancellation fee or not refunding a set up fee however.

The Muppet

Apologies I edited my post while you were replying.

Think it's obvious in this case that the op did not recieve that information from the insurance company.

AudreyHepburn

The Muppet wrote: »

Apologies I edited my post while you were replying.

Think it's obvious in this case that the op did not recieve that information from the insurance company.

Not verbally if he set the policy up online but it would be there in writing on the website under terms and conditions.

Cows Go µ

The Muppet wrote: »

Apologies I edited my post while you were replying.

Think it's obvious in this case that the op did not recieve that information from the insurance company.

It would also be standard with most (if not all) insurance companies. I don't know of any who give a discount for part of a year's driving experience.

When it comes to insurance, when in doubt, ask. You should never set up a policy based on a guess. When the op wasn't sure, he should have called the insurers and asked them what they meant. Not before driving the car/sending in docs.

Golf4GolfGti

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Not verbally if he set the policy up online but it would be there in writing on the website under terms and conditions.

So by your reasoning we should pay circa 700euro into their pocket to walk away from a <1month policy which was never signed. We should be penalized as you say for misclicking a misleading online form. This is exactly the attitude I expected from someone working in the insurance industry.

I will probably go the ombudsman route, everything considered I do not see them siding with your industry; especially with your rep at the minute.

All said, many thanks for the advice and feedback... do please be cautious to lambast people as fraudsters in the future ( a very strong word and accusation).

minidazzler

To be honest, if I was faced with the same form in the same situation I'd tick 1 year as well.

Would ticking 0 not be the same as ticking 1 with regards to misleading / false information ? Neither is strictly true.

Stheno

minidazzler wrote: »

To be honest, if I was faced with the same form in the same situation I'd tick 1 year as well.

Would ticking 0 not be the same as ticking 1 with regards to misleading / false information ? Neither is strictly true.

I'd see it as each full year of experience, the op has not got even one full year so zero is correct

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Regardless of whether it was a genuine mistake or deliberate non disclosure the point remains you led the insurers to believe your partner has significantly more driving experience then she really does. Of course they’re going to hike the premium.

Do you really honestly expect them to just ignore it?

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

So by your reasoning we should pay circa 700euro into their pocket to walk away from a <1month policy which was never signed. We should be penalized as you say for misclicking a misleading online form. This is exactly the attitude I expected from someone working in the insurance industry.

I will probably go the ombudsman route, everything considered I do not see them siding with your industry; especially with your rep at the minute.

All said, many thanks for the advice and feedback... do please be cautious to lambast people as fraudsters in the future ( a very strong word and accusation).

By paying for the policy you agreed to abide by all its terms and conditions. You didn’t physically sign anything but you still put a contract in place.

I’m not trying able you as anything and if you really weren’t trying to defraud the insurers then fair enough, I accept that. But - you knowingly imputed incorrect information when buying the policy that resulted in you paying less than you should have, that can’t be debated and I hope honestly don’t know what it is you expect from your provider.

Why can’t you just be adult enough to accept you made a mistake and take the consequences?

Liam McPoyle

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

So by your reasoning we should pay circa 700euro into their pocket to walk away from a <1month policy which was never signed. We should be penalized as you say for misclicking a misleading online form. This is exactly the attitude I expected from someone working in the insurance industry.

I will probably go the ombudsman route, everything considered I do not see them siding with your industry; especially with your rep at the minute.

All said, many thanks for the advice and feedback... do please be cautious to lambast people as fraudsters in the future ( a very strong word and accusation).

Has the 14 day cooling off period passed?

If so they are entitled to charge you a percentage of the annual premium for early cancellation, it will be in the terms and conditions you agreed to when you bought the policy.

The discount for named driving for 1 year is noted as being 35% which seems VERY high by industry standards, are you sure it was only 1 year you entered.

You originally bought a policy using incorrect information so the quote is invalid. They requoted you using the correct information so on the day of the requote the rates for that day would apply, some insurers would amend their rates regularly.

Bottom line is of you had entered the correct details ie provisional licence and zero years named driving experience you would most likely not have been allowed proceed with the quote.

AudreyHepburn

minidazzler wrote: »

To be honest, if I was faced with the same form in the same situation I'd tick 1 year as well.

Would ticking 0 not be the same as ticking 1 with regards to misleading / false information ? Neither is strictly true.

No, it’s an industry standard that if you have any less than one full years experience you note it as zero. It would not be seen as fraud or non disclosure.

Wheety

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

So by your reasoning we should pay circa 700euro into their pocket to walk away from a <1month policy which was never signed. We should be penalized as you say for misclicking a misleading online form. This is exactly the attitude I expected from someone working in the insurance industry.

I will probably go the ombudsman route, everything considered I do not see them siding with your industry; especially with your rep at the minute.

All said, many thanks for the advice and feedback... do please be cautious to lambast people as fraudsters in the future ( a very strong word and accusation).

The Ombudsman won't do anything. Is there wrongdoing by the insurance company?

How long ago did you apply for the insurance? I presume cover started on the 1st November? If so, the cooling off period has passed.

I believe it was a genuine error, it asks how many years so the answer is 0 until you have 12 months experience. You can't tick 2 years when you only have 1 year 4 months experience.

Harsh being punished so much but it's not punishing you for the mistake, it's punishing the lack of experience.

Liam McPoyle

minidazzler wrote: »

To be honest, if I was faced with the same form in the same situation I'd tick 1 year as well.

Would ticking 0 not be the same as ticking 1 with regards to misleading / false information ? Neither is strictly true.

Ticking 0 would not afford the customer any benefit/discount.

Ticking 1 would.

While both options are technically incorrect he would not gain any advantage by selecting 0 so it's not an issue.

Simply put he deliberately misrepresented the facts in order to buy a policy online and is now going to pay the penalty.

Henry Ford III

So the policy is in force already? If so no signatures are required. Submitting the proposal online was sufficient, and is the basis of the contract which is binding.

Unfortunately it's your incorrect declaration of driving experience (a few months isn't a full year) that's caused this problem.

Your best bet is to engage fully with your insurer, telling them you made an error, and also saying that you didn't realise the potential significance of it.

Ask is there any less painful way of working this out.

You've unfortunately got yourself into a dodgy situation here.

grogi

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Either way he’ll have to tell the new insurer - they’ll want to know about previously cancelled policies.

Only if the insurance company has cancelled it, not you.

I would cancel is ASAP and look for another deal. You might still be within cooling off period...

Golf4GolfGti

Just to conclude this; all monies were refunded; good thing all insurers aren't of the same mind/values as @AudreyHepburn

All is well that ends well. Thanks for the input folks.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

Just to conclude this; all monies were refunded; good thing all insurers aren't of the same mind/values as @AudreyHepburn

All is well that ends well. Thanks for the input folks.

Was it cancelled at your request or by your insurer "ab initio" (from inception) ? The difference is important

Golf4GolfGti

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

Was it cancelled at your request or by your insurer "ab initio" (from inception) ? The difference is important

At our request.

rgace

Golf4GolfGti wrote: »

Just to conclude this; all monies were refunded; good thing all insurers aren't of the same mind/values as @AudreyHepburn

All is well that ends well. Thanks for the input folks.

Great to hear about an insurance company that are reasonable and fair to deal with.