Pedigree Bull Ration

ford4610

Hi, what are peoples thoughts on the best cooked bull rations on the market? Apart from Redmills, Grennans what else are people using?

White Clover

ford4610 wrote: »

Hi, what are peoples thoughts on the best cooked bull rations on the market? Apart from Redmills, Grennans what else are people using?

They are a marketing gimic. A simple 3 way mix of barley, maize, and soya bean meal or a similar combination adjusted to suit would be superior imo.

wiggy123

what amount would you give--how many kg?
Have to young angus bulls-getting about 6kg of a (multi ration+beef nut mixed) Kieran milling...
get baled silage also

Bellview

wiggy123 wrote:

what amount would you give--how many kg? Have to young angus bulls-getting about 6kg of a (multi ration+beef nut mixed) Kieran milling... get baled silage also

wiggy123 wrote:

what amount would you give--how many kg? Have to young angus bulls-getting about 6kg of a (multi ration+beef nut mixed) Kieran milling... get baled silage also

What age are bulls as 6 kg is a lot..I have my lads on 2kg a day..they are around 12 months now..I won't up feed until around Feb 15th to March 1st as my view is too much feed plays he'll on their feet

ford4610

Bellview wrote: »

What age are bulls as 6 kg is a lot..I have my lads on 2kg a day..they are around 12 months now..I won't up feed until around Feb 15th to March 1st as my view is too much feed plays he'll on their feet

What are you feeding them?

wiggy123

May 2016 + July 2016 born! there getting that all getting that most of the year-maybe less a few kg just. When grass was a plenty in the field there in.
older lad-was away working with cows, is also sold.. should be gone very soon, under lad is provisionally sold for next springtime.. so will just maintain him over the winter-probably around 2kg just...

patsy_mccabe

I'm new to the pedigree game. Not a fan of this over feeding. Creates problem down the line with feet and fertility. Feeding 3 spring 2016 bulls around 2Kg a head at the moment. Would prefer to let them grow away normally.

wiggy123

I'm same opinion--they are not pumped.. like them to grow, all bulls out wintered also, hair on them!

ford4610

Lads, all the top priced bulls in sales are always the ones that are pushed.

Bellview

ford4610 wrote:

Lads, all the top priced bulls in sales are always the ones that are pushed.

True but I like repeat customers coming back happy and not hearing the bull fell apart with work..after 30 years breeding that is my little bit experience

Hard Knocks

What age do you sell at?
I thought it was 12-18mts.
Do you feed to a particular sale?

wiggy123

I'm same.. repeat customers since I started back 20 years ago-breeding angus's
Problem is-bulls last to long, last man came back-after buying bull of me 8 years back... said he had been a lucky bull

Cattlepen

wiggy123 wrote: »

I'm same.. repeat customers since I started back 20 years ago-breeding angus's
Problem is-bulls last to long, last man came back-after buying bull of me 8 years back... said he had been a lucky bull

Do you most sell to dairy men or do any beef men buy the Angus off you?

Cattlepen

ford4610 wrote: »

Lads, all the top priced bulls in sales are always the ones that are pushed.

Your 110% correct. And also when you have fellas coming to buy them at home they are not happy unless their pumped up. They will say this that and the other is wrong with a properly developed honest Bull. It's the same with the rams. Big overweight balls of butter is all they want and then complain that he melted when they got him home.
It's hard to win

wiggy123

agree cattlepen with that comment..
eh-my customers be mostly dairy(say 90%)
only have a small herd of 7 cows.. so handful bulls for sale each year!
had 6 born in 2016--all sold now..(pending 2 lads with me still-going soon to customer)

patsy_mccabe

Definitely a catch 22. I saw that limousin bull selling that the Tullamore IFJ farm bought at a premier sale. He was well fed but broke down when it came to doing the job. He had faded away a lot when I saw him again in Tullamore.

charolais0153

On the other hand, a lad has to mind the bull. Sold a bull to a lad and he always brough him a few kgs of nut everyday. Made him very quiet. And he didnt melt.

Sold another bull and the lad just lashed him off with 30 cows on rough enough ground that wouldnt get fertiliser or be topped and then he melts. Hed have to be 3 years old ans stopped growing to be put there.
Uncle bought a real good bull that fell back a bit oved the winter so that he looked nothing like je used to. This autumn and he looks as good as the day he bought him and is throwing good calves

Never wrestle with pigs

Bought a young bull a few months ago and he's 13 months old now. I'm giving him 4kg of wean and build %16 nut. I wouldn't consider him any where near over fed. He's humming along nicely and should be grand for bulling cows by paddys day.

ford4610

I am new to breeding Pedigrees also. The meal some of the big breeders are giving to bulls is frightening.

Bellview

Cattlepen wrote:

Do you most sell to dairy men or do any beef men buy the Angus off you?

Majority are dairy folks..but where I live is all dairy. I have sold a few into beef and pedigree and there is even one bull in spain in a pedigree herd. The best way to describe what I try to breed is closer to cattle we had 15 years ago as I have kept a lot of those bloodlines here .. which would mean the bulls I have would not be as large as the lads showing but the boys that buy them generally get nice money for the calves as a little thicker. There is one guy who buys a bull every year and he finishes the cattle off dairy herd..which is always a good benchmark to get feedback from. ... I only used 4 kyas straws...and honestly they are the flightiest cattle I have ever had in the place and next spring I will look at giving away my remaining kya straws as luck to dairy man

Bellview

patsy_mccabe wrote:

Definitely a catch 22. I saw that limousin bull selling that the Tullamore IFJ farm bought at a premier sale. He was well fed but broke down when it came to doing the job. He had faded away a lot when I saw him again in Tullamore.

Hi patsy do you know if the ifj vaccinated for Ibr and bvd at the same time... as this can feck up bulls for a few months

Bellview

ford4610 wrote:

I am new to breeding Pedigrees also. The meal some of the big breeders are giving to bulls is frightening.

Big feed Bill...I prefer to see if I can make a profit. A few weeks back in the journal they costed getting a bull ready for a sale was over 2k.which I must admit I thought was high but includes cow etc ..but the feed Bill can move that costs up quickly

wiggy123

agree--some folk push there bulls seriously, does the bull no good.. they then get high prices! but when they do the figures--profit is very little..
while man getting €2+ k at the house, will make at least 50% profit, if he doesn't push a bull...
young bulls need to grow/develop
have seen pumped bulls go into herd of cows and melt....
bulls maintained by breeder go to herd and normally work well + flourish

patsy_mccabe

I've been to a lot of Limousin pedigree sales and it's their feet that always give the game away. Half of them can't walk right and a lot would have their hooves paired already.

whelan2

Bellview wrote: »

Majority are dairy folks..but where I live is all dairy. I have sold a few into beef and pedigree and there is even one bull in spain in a pedigree herd. The best way to describe what I try to breed is closer to cattle we had 15 years ago as I have kept a lot of those bloodlines here .. which would mean the bulls I have would not be as large as the lads showing but the boys that buy them generally get nice money for the calves as a little thicker. There is one guy who buys a bull every year and he finishes the cattle off dairy herd..which is always a good benchmark to get feedback from. ... I only used 4 kyas straws...and honestly they are the flightiest cattle I have ever had in the place and next spring I will look at giving away my remaining kya straws as luck to dairy man

On kya, pb heifer calved this morning kya calf, served 3/3/17 calf up and drinking. Will be a nice surprise for young lad as she's his heifer.

ford4610

I heard one bull that sold at a society sale recently which made big money was getting 30kg of meal a day:eek:

AntrimGlens

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I've been to a lot of Limousin pedigree sales and it's their feet that always give the game away. Half of them can't walk right and a lot would have their hooves paired already.

Unfortunately it's not just their feet Patsy, at least you can see them on the day. It's the fertility is becoming the problem now. Two Bulls sold from the North into Carlisle in the last couple of years for £100K and £70K. Not a calf to be had off them, both not working with fertility problems. They weren't getting 2kg a day, let me tell you.

whelan2

ford4610 wrote: »

I heard one bull that sold at a society sale recently which made big money was getting 30kg of meal a day:eek:

Would their stomachs be able to tolerate that amount of meal?

ford4610

whelan2 wrote: »

Would their stomachs be able to tolerate that amount of meal?

If you build them up twice a day

Hard Knocks

ford4610 wrote: »

whelan2 wrote: »

Would their stomachs be able to tolerate that amount of meal?

If you build them up twice a day

The Charolais Cracker is on Saturday, how much feeding would bulls for it be on?

wiggy123

pumped pumped to last for high weighs/ showing.. cannot be good then for a working animal..

some breeders are foolish..
leads to feet problems, there unable to carry that weigh at such a young age--bones not fully developed, etc..

but it human terms-have a toddler weighing 6 stone, would they walk easily+would it be good for them???? Nooo

ford4610

wiggy123 wrote: »

pumped pumped to last for high weighs/ showing.. cannot be good then for a working animal..

some breeders are foolish..
leads to feet problems, there unable to carry that weigh at such a young age--bones not fully developed, etc..

but it human terms-have a toddler weighing 6 stone, would they walk easily+would it be good for them???? Nooo

I agree with you 100% but you need to feed bulls well, but pumping it into them its a different story.

ford4610

Hard Knocks wrote: »

The Charolais Cracker is on Saturday, how much feeding would bulls for it be on?

I would be thinking €2000-3000 worth of meal from birth to the sale.

wiggy123

ah feed them is right--but not fatten them..
like avg weigh gain daily -from say avg birth weigh of a 50kg calf! should be what 1.5kg daily! so give a 12 month old bull a weigh of 597ish kg... that not be ok for a bull--opinions! to light? to heavy?

Hard Knocks

ford4610 wrote: »

Hard Knocks wrote: »

The Charolais Cracker is on Saturday, how much feeding would bulls for it be on?

I would be thinking €2000-3000 worth of meal from birth to the sale.

You’d want 6k+ so

ford4610

wiggy123 wrote: »

ah feed them is right--but not fatten them..
like avg weigh gain daily -from say avg birth weigh of a 50kg calf! should be what 1.5kg daily! so give a 12 month old bull a weigh of 597ish kg... that not be ok for a bull--opinions! to light? to heavy?

What breed are talking?

ford4610

Hard Knocks wrote: »

You’d want 6k+ so

I am not saying all bulls would be getting that amount of meal but definitely some are.

wiggy123

generally, all breeds no?
in fairness birth weigh can vary.. re angus prob be avg 38kg.. char maybe double that.. possibly wrong!
say a calf on a good cow..
now I'd say my calves (angus pedigrees) be gaining only 1 to 1.2kg a day.. I do not push them, no meal until close to weaning, some mothers-do have plenty of milk, to me-is the cheapest feed to a calf.. so milk is key in a suckler dam

ford4610

wiggy123 wrote: »

generally, all breeds no?
in fairness birth weigh can vary.. re angus prob be avg 38kg.. char maybe double that.. possibly wrong!
say a calf on a good cow..
now I'd say my calves (angus pedigrees) be gaining only 1 to 1.2kg a day.. I do not push them, no meal until close to weaning, some mothers-do have plenty of milk, to me-is the cheapest feed to a calf.. so milk is key in a suckler dam

A dam with a good udder of milk is half the battle. if the dam has no milk you are wasting your time, factory job.

wiggy123

I agree ford 4610, and sadly a lot of the breeds have lost this strait, and the have a cow with no milk--bring in a black and white lady-she rears the calf, which boost its figures, re weigh gain! all false info..
but sadly breeders are let get away with that...

ford4610

wiggy123 wrote: »

I agree ford 4610, and sadly a lot of the breeds have lost this strait, and the have a cow with no milk--bring in a black and white lady-she rears the calf, which boost its figures, re weigh gain! all false info..
but sadly breeders are let get away with that...

Ya and apparently there is a lot of cheating going on e.g registering a animal months later after they are born so therefore a animal might actually be 18 months but their cert could say 14/15 months.

Hard Knocks

Is ICBF not checking on that with the whole herd.

wiggy123

are they???

wiggy123

ford4610-that would never go on... no whine bushes growing around the country :-)

ford4610

I think it should be down to the societies the enforce stricter rules.

patsy_mccabe

Heard recently of a well known Limousin breeder who had a foreign film crew in to do a general documentary on Irish farming. The film showed a pen of fine looking bulls, but in the background you could see a couple of milky dairy cows. He wasnt too happy when he saw it.:D

whelan2

ford4610 wrote: »

Ya and apparently there is a lot of cheating going on e.g registering a animal months later after they are born so therefore a animal might actually be 18 months but their cert could say 14/15 months.

Sure arent the 2018 calves being born now....

ford4610

whelan2 wrote: »

Sure arent the 2018 calves being born now....

Spot on!

wiggy123

is bad press for all pedigree breeders--societies do be afraid to reprimand the culprits, could find some of them are actually well up/regarded in these societies...

wiggy123

could even be even the autumn 2018 or spring 2019 calves...been born

ford4610

Your right corruption is in all walks of life especially at the top end, its clearly evident at shows the size difference in some of the classes is massive.