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Query regarding Irish Air Space

  • 21-11-2017 4:27pm
    #1
    Posts: 0


    I am just wondering if anyone might be able to answer a question. Am I right in saying that the British air force protects our air space? With Brexit happening how will that be affect who protects Irish air space?

    Cheers to anyone that can answer this question. It was just a shower thought :)


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I am just wondering if anyone might be able to answer a question. Am I right in saying that the British air force protects our air space? With Brexit happening how will that be affect who protects Irish air space?

    Cheers to anyone that can answer this question. It was just a shower thought :)

    Yes they do currently have an arrangement, most likely post Brexit they will continue to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Yes they do currently have an arrangement, most likely post Brexit they will continue to do so.

    This is one thing i get lost on. Who or what exactly are the British protecting our airspace from?

    If a 9/11 type incident happened, it would happen i presume very quickly and nothing could be done about it because it would happen so quick. In the unlikely case that we got a heads up that something was going to happen, from what i understand there is only 4 British jets on standby for the UK at any one time if i recall from the sky news program about QRA

    So if something happens here two jets launch from the UK on full afterburner to get here asap.When they get here how long do they have left fuel wise before have they need to hook up with a tanker for refueling. At this stage who gives the ok to shoot down a aircraft over Dublin killing many many people on the ground?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    This is one thing i get lost on. Who or what exactly are the British protecting our airspace from?

    If a 9/11 type incident happened, it would happen i presume very quickly and nothing could be done about it because it would happen so quick. In the unlikely case that we got a heads up that something was going to happen, from what i understand there is only 4 British jets on standby for the UK at any one time if i recall from the sky news program about QRA

    So if something happens here two jets launch from the UK on full afterburner to get here asap.When they get here how long do they have left fuel wise before have they need to hook up with a tanker for refueling. At this stage who gives the ok to shoot down a aircraft over Dublin killing many many people on the ground?

    In terms of a hijacked airliner I suppose it would depend on when such a hijack occurred, ie if the airliner has activated the beacon setting to show it's been hijacked then there's time for the RAF to respond. But yes as anywhere looking at a 9/11 situation it depends on when such a seizure happened.

    Then there's the issue of airliners that would have communication issues, and then the Russian who just don't bother responding.

    As to shooting anything down, from memory that was a point of conflict from the RAF when this was agreed, basically I think it would be the RAF/UK Government that would make such a call given our limited C&C capability anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    sparky42 wrote: »
    In terms of a hijacked airliner I suppose it would depend on when such a hijack occurred, ie if the airliner has activated the beacon setting to show it's been hijacked then there's time for the RAF to respond. But yes as anywhere looking at a 9/11 situation it depends on when such a seizure happened.

    Then there's the issue of airliners that would have communication issues, and then the Russian who just don't bother responding.

    As to shooting anything down, from memory that was a point of conflict from the RAF when this was agreed, basically I think it would be the RAF/UK Government that would make such a call given our limited C&C capability anyway.

    Would the UK government be willing to take the responsibly of shooting down an aircraft which then falls all over a suburb where we have family homes and schools. If i was the UK i would be on the phone to Leo telling him its his call we are only helping! Could a Typhoon get here on full trust without refueling?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,253 ✭✭✭source


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Would the UK government be willing to take the responsibly of shooting down an aircraft which then falls all over a suburb where we have family homes and schools. If i was the UK i would be on the phone to Leo telling him its his call we are only helping! Could a Typhoon get here on full trust without refueling?

    Well that's a slippery slope argument if ever I've seen one.

    Basic rules of engagement would preclude the shooting down of an aircraft over a heavily populated area. The shooting down of an aircraft in a situation like a hijacking would be done over water if possible, and if not over a sparsely or un-populated area.

    The question in the op however is a good one, and one worth thinking about. Not sure the rest of the EU would be happy with a foreign power providing air cover in EU airspace.

    Could we see an injection of European cash into the Air Corps to avoid the situation?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭exaisle


    <snip>It was just a shower thought :)

    Doing a helicopter at the time, were ya? ;-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    source wrote: »
    The question in the op however is a good one, and one worth thinking about. Not sure the rest of the EU would be happy with a foreign power providing air cover in EU airspace.

    Could we see an injection of European cash into the Air Corps to avoid the situation?

    The EU nations are OK with USAF aircraft providing elements of the Baltic CAP from memory so I don't think they would be greatly concerned about the UK doing so for Ireland.

    That being said I don't think we would see any monies from the EU if there was a decision that we had to have a Fast Jet unit, the reason for that is our spending level (think with the growth of GDP it's now below 0.5%), when there's the move pretty much throughout the rest of the EU (both NATO and the other few Non-NATO nations) to move towards spending around 2%. So us arguing that we'd need spending assistance while still at .5% isn't going to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,253 ✭✭✭source


    sparky42 wrote: »
    The EU nations are OK with USAF aircraft providing elements of the Baltic CAP from memory so I don't think they would be greatly concerned about the UK doing so for Ireland.

    That being said I don't think we would see any monies from the EU if there was a decision that we had to have a Fast Jet unit, the reason for that is our spending level (think with the growth of GDP it's now below 0.5%), when there's the move pretty much throughout the rest of the EU (both NATO and the other few Non-NATO nations) to move towards spending around 2%. So us arguing that we'd need spending assistance while still at .5% isn't going to happen.

    Indeed, however, the United States were never part of the EU and haven't gone through what is turning into a pretty messy divorce process, though the continued cover of the airspace could be used as a bargaining chip for economic agreements.

    I'm aware of the exceptionally low defence spend in Ireland, however we are also running a deficit which would need to be taken into account.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    source wrote: »
    Indeed, however, the United States were never part of the EU and haven't gone through what is turning into a pretty messy divorce process, though the continued cover of the airspace could be used as a bargaining chip for economic agreements.

    I doubt that either side other than us would highly care, the reality is that the UK can't really ignore the situation if we aren't in position to do anything about it.
    I'm aware of the exceptionally low defence spend in Ireland, however we are also running a deficit which would need to be taken into account.

    So was/is Greece but that didn't change their defence spending levels (even when it should have), as I said when you have much smaller and poorer economies trying to work towards 2%, I see us just pissing the others off if we turn up and say "Hey you now that FJ force we were thinking of, well would you pay it for us? Oh that Low Corporation tax, what's the issue with that, or the Apple Tax issue, etc?"...


  • Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭NewSigGuy


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Yes they do currently have an arrangement, most likely post Brexit they will continue to do so.

    Can you provide evidence for this?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,344 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    NewSigGuy wrote: »
    Can you provide evidence for this?

    Look back over the news this year when Russian planes flew into Irish airspace. The RAF were scrambled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    NewSigGuy wrote: »
    Can you provide evidence for this?

    Evidence for what? The Agreement, just google it, there's been several articles from the Indo I think on it (or the examiner), but yes the DOD cut a deal with the MOD/RAF without including the Air Crops in it.

    If you are asking about future intentions, since we still won't be able to do anything then someone will still have to mind our airspace, and the chances are the UK will be that one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭NewSigGuy


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Evidence for what? The Agreement, just google it, there's been several articles from the Indo I think on it (or the examiner), but yes the DOD cut a deal with the MOD/RAF without including the Air Crops in it.

    If you are asking about future intentions, since we still won't be able to do anything then someone will still have to mind our airspace, and the chances are the UK will be that one.

    The articles are speculative at best, there is no evidence other then some poorly written click bate pieces.

    For example, the Examiner last year "RAF tornado jets could shoot down hijacked planes in Irish airspace" the tornado hasn't done QRA for quite a few years now, and.. "One British source said that if a plane coming from the US was hijacked close to this country “the Irish would expect British help”

    All seams fairly speculative to me and maybe the guys spinning the story have agendas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If we decided to act like grown ups and acquire a stronger air defence Is there such a think as a cheap and cheerful interceptor on the market. As we Don't need jets that can go toe to toe with another nations jets.


  • Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭shaunr68


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Yes they do currently have an arrangement, most likely post Brexit they will continue to do so.
    Is there a fee for this service?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    shaunr68 wrote: »
    Is there a fee for this service?

    I would presume that having undefended airspace covering up to a quarter of the west coast of the UK is not something the British would be comfortable with, the Irish Sea is far too small to be defendable in itself so both countries benefit from an arrangement like this. We get air cover, they get to comprehensively defend a larger expanse of their west coast and Atlantic area.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,704 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    irishgeo wrote: »
    Look back over the news this year when Russian planes flew into Irish airspace. The RAF were scrambled.
    no Russia planes flew into Irish Airspace


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    no Russia planes flew into Irish Airspace

    Russian aircraft have, on several occassions, transmitted through Irish Controlled Airspace. It also happens to be one of the busiest air corridors in the world due to the NATS traffic.

    Sovereign airspace is a different matter. To answer the question correctly - no Russian aircraft, that we are aware of, has illegally entered sovereign Irish Airspace.

    As it is Irish controlled airspace we (the Irish nation) have a responsibility to ensure the safe passage of aircraft and their passengers.

    Glad to see you've ceased dropping links with one liners. Just down to one liners now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    Russian aircraft have, on several occassions, transmitted through Irish Controlled Airspace. It also happens to be one of the busiest air corridors in the world due to the NATS traffic.

    Sovereign airspace is a different matter. To answer the question correctly - no Russian aircraft, that we are aware of, has illegally entered sovereign Irish Airspace.

    As it is Irish controlled airspace we (the Irish nation) have a responsibility to ensure the safe passage of aircraft and their passengers.

    Glad to see you've ceased dropping links with one liners. Just down to one liners now.

    We do always here about the Russian aircraft causing potential problems would the same be true with American B2's?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    roadmaster wrote: »
    If we decided to act like grown ups and acquire a stronger air defence Is there such a think as a cheap and cheerful interceptor on the market. As we Don't need jets that can go toe to toe with another nations jets.

    We would need the EuroFighter 90m or thereabouts. Then service and training etc:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    We do always here about the Russian aircraft causing potential problems would the same be true with American B2's?

    There are several reasons I suspect.

    American aircraft would be more likely to submit over flight clearances and not fly through busy airspace with no transponder's on.

    That being said, they do routinely do something similar in the south china sea and baltic region while conducting patrols.

    This type of operation, generally speaking, is done to test the reaction of the other side. I'm sure the Russians are more than aware of our lack of air defence and are more interested in seeing the reaction of NATO members along their routing.

    The issue here is an aircraft which has not filed a plan and is effectively routing whatever way they want through very busy airspace without a transponder on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    There are several reasons I suspect.

    American aircraft would be more likely to submit over flight clearances and not fly through busy airspace with no transponder's on.

    That being said, they do routinely do something similar in the south china sea and baltic region while conducting patrols.

    This type of operation, generally speaking, is done to test the reaction of the other side. I'm sure the Russians are more than aware of our lack of air defence and are more interested in seeing the reaction of NATO members along their routing.

    The issue here is an aircraft which has not filed a plan and is effectively routing whatever way they want through very busy airspace without a transponder on.

    I understand what your saying about the Russians but I can't see the Americans turning a beacon on in a stealth aircraft or telling us if they are heading over to Eastern Europe . The Russians are only out for spin anyway !


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    We would need the EuroFighter 90m or thereabouts. Then service and training etc:

    Not really, the Gripen is much cheaper, several of the Eastern EU nations have a squadron or so on lease for about 100m a year with the spares/supplies/training included.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    We would need the EuroFighter 90m or thereabouts. Then service and training etc:

    Do you not think a eurofighter is a bit on the overkill side?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    We would need the EuroFighter 90m or thereabouts. Then service and training etc:

    No we don't.

    A squadron of supersonic Gripen aircraft can be acquired on lease from Sweden for approximately €70/80m per year. Sure there are other ancillary costs involved, mainly fuel but it is hardly out of the reach of a first world western nation. There are plenty of others operating similar.

    We continue to give €600m a year in foreign aid that no one bats an eye lid at. We even give it to some countries that have their own space programmes but the Shinners/Lefties/bleeding heart brigade would implode at the prospect of asserting authority over our own airspace.

    It's a cultural issue and a decades long mentality of "sure we're 'neutral' so why bother".

    There is a vast difference between being neutral and being militarily non alligned of which we are the latter.

    Hopefully, the move toward PESCO may see come capital investment and funding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Do you not think a eurofighter is a bit on the overkill side?

    Realistically you need a 4th gen or newer fighter, the "weaponised" trainers don't have the speed/range to get to respond to anything Russian for example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I understand what your saying about the Russians but I can't see the Americans turning a beacon on in a stealth aircraft or telling us if they are heading over to Eastern Europe . The Russians are only out for spin anyway !

    I cant argue with you.

    The joys of operating a billion dollar state of the art stealth aircraft is, you can pretty much do what you like unfortunately!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Negative_G wrote: »

    There is a vast difference between being neutral and being militarily non alligned of which we are the latter.

    Hopefully, the move toward PESCO may see come capital investment and funding.

    With the latest temper tantrum in the Daíl who knows if PESCO involvement actually happens now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    sparky42 wrote: »
    With the latest temper tantrum in the Daíl who knows if PESCO involvement actually happens now.

    I think it will, most media reports recently indicate that its just a formality and we will join before Christmas.

    A general election could delay the matter for sure.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,315 ✭✭✭cml387


    Brexit is irrelevant.
    Britain acts for the defence of Europe under NATO, including the western approaches.


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