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ATH First Round match 4 - Lord TSC Vs SureYWouldntYa

  • 20-11-2017 7:04pm
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭

    The next match in Around The Horn 2017 is none other than our Mod Lord TSC taking on SWWA in a battle of two experienced and knowledgable guys.

    You Guys know the drill.

    Q4. The Shield are one of the top acts in wrestling today and Vince McMahon wants to recreate the magic with a new 3 man team. And its up to you to book it!

    So your question is, picking 3 men/women from NXT/development not yet alligned on screen and put them together in a 3 person team. Who do you pick and why? How do you book their debut and their first feud on the main roster? Only people currently under WWE contract are eligible and they cant be currently on the main roster.

    Which faction did you like? 6 votes

    Lord TSC
    0% 0 votes
    100% 6 votes


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,721 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa

    The 3 people I’m going to allign are Andrade Cien Almas, Kassius Ohno and Hideo Itami.

    You probably wondering what in the name of jaysus would cause an alliance between these 3. After winning the Nxt title Andrade is on top of the world. Some people think it was the help of Zelina Vega that put Almas from late night playboy to champion, but he doesnt see it like that. He thinks it was through his own greatness that he managed to turn his career around. Itami was extremely highly rated when he first arrived in Nxt, and was there before the other big names associated with Nxt like Prince Devitt and Kevin Steen, he should have been the poster child for the golden era of Nxt. Kassius Ohno was highly thought of by a lot in wrestling, being in CM Punks first vision for thr Shield alongside Ambrose and Rollins. Both of these guys are wasting years in Nxt, with Itami being 36 and Ohno 37 but Almas is 28 and has reached the summit of Nxt.

    When we first see these 3 on the main roster we know nothing of the alliance, just them attacking an already fractured Shield who came close to imploding in the Royal Rumble that Shinsuke Nakamura won. They destroy the Shield in a similar fashion to what the Shield done in the past. The following week on Raw, their alliance is explained with Andrade being the guide to help get Itami and Ohno to the level they should have been at. The are known as “The Destiny”, you cant stop destiny. Over the next few weeks we see Itami and Ohno beat guys with the guidance of Almas, and although these guys will be heels they are beating the other guys theyre facing in a clean manner. Even though Almas is still Nxt champion, the other guys get Almas to face someone on Raw to prove how great he is, eventually going up against Braun Strowman. Almas isnt doing great in the match as would be expected, but interference from the shield saves him.

    A wrestlemania match with The Shield follows for The Destiny. Destiny will win the match to keep the group strong after Mania, there was still clear discent in the shield camp while the destiny rallied together for the match when it mattered most, we want to give these guys the best rub possible but you just cant have them beat a fully functioning shield its not the right move to keep all going forward.

    So to end my 3 guys are together because they need to be, Almas has people backing him to ensure he keeps the nxt title since theyre only protecting destiny. The other 2 guys finally seem to be going somewhere with their career, and these 3 are set to be the top trio going forward in WWE. After Almas eventually drops the nxt title you can have him win the IC title on Raw with the other 2 guys being the tag champs, theres serious potential in the partnership between these 3.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,389 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC

    So, the gist of this question is "how do you bring three guys onto the main roster, and make them a big deal".

    And I think the mistake SureYWouldntYa makes is that he immediately jumps into a feud with The Shield, which would only serve to hurt them, because it would be too much too quick. If you want a group that captures the magic of The Shield (which, by the way, will be difficult and I'll address in a second), putting them up against the Shield immediately is a mistake. That should be a dream match thats built up to over a long, long time. Not given away immediately.

    As referenced above, it's difficult to recapture that magic, and as such, I'd believe that the focus shouldn't be on straight up making the Shield 2.0, but on establishing the trio as their own stable, building them up massively and then, down the line, doing the Shield match up.

    So, my three are...

    Drew McIntyre, leading Allister Black and Killian Dane.

    Why Them?

    First off, the main issue most NXT people have when they reach the main roster is that WWE treats its audience as if they know who these guys are, what characters they have, how they've developed, as common knowledge, despite the fact most of the audience don't want NXT. First stumbling block is to get over that hurdle.

    Drew McIntyre, to me, is vital to this answer; he's someone that a larger chunk of the audience will already be aware of existing. His story has mostly played out on TV in front of the general audience, and gives him a chance to cut an intro promo. People know him. At a young age, he got Vince's blessing, and that didn't work out. Everyone knows he struggled in WWE, but he left, found himself, improved himself, and is back to prove he deserved that endorsement he got. He was the Chosen One, and now it's time to reaffirm that Vince was right to trust him.

    I've chosen Black and Dain as his squad mates, because the two don't need long introductions. You just LOOK at them, and you know "Damn, these are two bad asses." And yet, they both do that in different ways. Black, with his tattoos and stoic attitude, a deadly weapon who can kick your head off. And Dain, who looks like a monster but is dangerously agile, a hidden level of ability that people underestimate. Two men whose fighting styles are different, but very dangerous in different ways. And coupled with Drew, all three are hard hitting, and physically impressive in the ring.

    Alone, the trio assert a level of dominance in their abilities. Together, they are an intimidating force.

    With Almas, Hideo and Ohno, there's too much of a backstory thats happened on NXT that needs to be established for the audience. Without the backstory, the trio aren't as physically intimidating either, Ohno with his weight issues and Hideo being so small. With Drew's already happening on Smackdown, and the other two not actually needing that story told before they arrive, it makes a better fit for a call up. No one knew who Roman, Dean or Rollins were when they got called up. All people needed to know where as a trio, they looked scary.

    Booking Their Debut

    The Shield are on Raw, and I'd be keeping this trio away from them for a while. It also helps that Raw is full of top level guys, and breaking into that main event scene would be difficult at the moment. As such, I'd have these three guys over on Smackdown, where competition is less fierce, and it would be far easier to book them as dominant monsters.

    I'd have Drew, first, debut alone. As I said above, "I'm back for my second chance, I'm here to prove myself", etc. I'd have him as a face to begin with, and as he's talking, I have Jinder Mahal come out. The two, again, have a past that the main audience have seen. Jinder talks about how they used to be partners, but while Drew was off "finding himself", Jinder won a WWE title. Jinder says he carried Drew, runs him down, and then the two book each other a match at the next PPV. Getting into a feud with a former WWE Champ gives Drew a big start, but it's not too big of an opponent as to overshadow him either.

    Jinder and Drew's match comes round, and Jinder comes out. "I've got a new Three Man Band now, Drew!" and the Singh brothers do what they do. Drew fights them off, but they start to get the numbers advantage. And then, through the crowd, Alister Black and Killian Dain invade the ring. Together with Drew, they just dismantle Jinder and the brothers. Utterly kill them (and The Singh brothers know how to make people look like monsters; their sizes make the others look even bigger too). They leave Jinder and his allies for dead, the former WWE Champ left utterly defeated.

    And now, Drew, with his two new friends, say that when he said he was here to take his place back as the Chosen one, he did not mean "waiting his turn". They are a wave of power, sweeping through the blue brand. Together, the three run roughshod over the Smackdown roster, and there's plenty of guys there to make them look good. They destroy the Fashion Police, a comedy act they have no time for. They destroy individuals who try to form groups against them, Bobby Roode and Nakamura trying to stop them but falling short. And eventually, they even destroy The New Day.

    The trio are the focal points of Smackdown, anyone who stands up to them getting mauled. Drew works his way to winning the WWE title. Meanwhile, over on Raw, Roman wins his inevitable WWE Universal title, and a year down the line, with Drew and his group fully established, THEN you pull the trigger on a feud. But until then, you have to establish this group as an unstoppable force first.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,721 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa

    Alistair Black following someone? Being in a group at all? Don't see it, that man is destined to do his own thing. The only pairing he should ever be in is one where's they're like Black and White, ying and yang, an odd pairing like with Velveteen Dream or similar. I couldn't think of anyone less suited to being in a group, either as equals or with a leader.

    Killian Dain is already in a group that seems to be going quite well too, Sanity themselves could be on the main roster soon.

    Also the reason I'm pairing them with The Shield for their first real feud is to try and take advantage of something that will actually happen in the next few months, the next breakup of The Shield. What I've done doesn't hurt The Shield guys individually going forward, it uses their star power to set up these new guys for the future. You have random pairings coming together like Roode and Nakamura to try and stop your guys? But you think I'm doing Shield 2.0..............

    Why do you expect the audience to remember 3MB? It was around ~4 years ago and you're going to have to remind most of the audience about that. You making the point that you need to know the backstory from NXT for my guys is a bit redundant, without being reminded more people will know the stories of Ohno/Itami in NXT since it's the immediate past and the present whereas how much has happened since 3MB. My backstory is fairly obviously explained since Almas will still be NXT champion for a period and people will have a visual reminder that's he's damn good.

    Also with an Irishman, a Scot and a Dutchman pairing these 3 will so easily end up with these guys being the evil foreigners down the line. You might not intend for this to happen and you obviously didn't book it, but pairing those 3 guys together will give Vince that safe option that's always somewhere on the card.

    Drew McIntyre as WWE champion? Fair enough I can see that. Top guy on SD but trying to actually present him as an equal to Reigns in the WWE universe of today is madness while Vince is alive, it just won't happen.

    We both do the same thing in the end, having our guys face The Shield. But the Shield aren't going to be together past early next year, there's no way in hell they're lasting long past Wrestlemania as a grouping. If they're already facing random pairings like seen at TLC where else do they go for a year? I'm giving them something to do for that period up until Mania and you can have the big split the Raw after Mania and keep things going in a realistic way.

    You have my guys brag about beating The Shield, which is elevating them. But with The Shield split it's not hurting them since they're feuding with each other. My way is all about getting the best for all the important guys involved, we don't need Roode and Nakamura minimised more than they already are.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,389 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC

    I believe that there's far more chances the audience will remember 3MB, especially with Heath and Jinder still around, than will watch NXT. There's a difference between "Will people remember something that happened 4 years ago" and "Have people ever even seen NXT?" Will EVERYONE remember? No. But there's going to be a far, far larger share of the audience who'll be clued in to the past of Raw than there is the present of NXT. Thats also why its important to have a slower build towards a bigger pay off, and establish these guys as top level talents over a longer period of time.

    To be blunt, it doesn't matter that Dain is in a group in NXT or that Black would be part of a group. 90% of the WWE audience will not know anything about their NXT shows and characters. Thats, really, the entire point of my original post. The vast majority of guys who get bumped up to the main shows rely not on their character development or feuds from NXT, but on what they bring to the show in their own right at the time of their call up. If you want to re-create the magic of the Shield....well, The Shield's developmental backround never came into play with that group. It was briefly mentioned but it was their presence, their dangerous aura, that made them so wildly successful.

    With Dain and Black, you're talking two characters who have a very immediate impact in terms of their physical presence. You don't need to know whats happened to them in the past. You look at them and they are very obviously guys who are going to wreck some havoc. When they'd hit the ring, people who would never have seen them before will know what they are about the second Black decapitates someone, or Dain uses his size to destroy someone. They are three huge men, but who are fully capable in the ring.

    With Hideo, with Almas, and definitely with Ohno, they don't have that physical presence at all. The crowd are going to see a tiny Japanese guy and a guy who is just fat (not in a way that makes him scary or intimidating; just in a lazy way). Almas, in fairness, is a good shout for one of these things. But the other two would simply not get the crowd thinking they were capable of hanging in the ring with The Shield. Physically, the three you've put together are missing something that would make anyone believe they could go toe to toe with the shield. It's missing that physically dominating presence, that "Oh, HE will definitely kill someone" character.

    One final point; I fully believe debuting a group into a feud with The Shield is suicide, mainly cause it's blowing your load in Feud One. Where would they go from there? Who'd, believably, be able to tackle them if they dismantled The Shield? That feud should be built up to, not thrown away quickly. Good storytelling is about the build up and the pay off, neither of which is capitalized on by giving away an immediate feud with the Shield. Thats to say nothing of the fact that the crowd simply won't buy into a group who appear out of nowhere and beat the Shield, AND by your own admission, they'll get overshadowed by the resulting fallout of the Shield's implosion. The crowd will be more focused on the idea that the new group won not because they genuinely deserved to, but because the Shield fell apart.

    The group would need to overcome greater and greater obstacles to maintain their aura of being a big deal. If they beat the Shield that quickly....then what? Everything else is going to be a step down, and the magic will quickly fail, either because they've become too powerful too quick, or because they'd need to be nerfed quickly in a bid to have any credible opponents left afterwards.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,721 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa

    I'd be of the opinion that more would have a general knowledge of the landscape of NXT than a grouping not seen on Raw in 4 years

    Slower build towards a bigger pay off? If we're supposed to recreate the magic of The Shield then slow isn't the way to do it. I'm not exactly sending my guys to the moon but they're going to be established guys on the main roster within a couple months on tv, whereas you're trading on the past success of Drew McIntyre getting them started and keeping them going, the same guy who ended up in a jobber group and future endeavored. The same people who'd know that Drew was a success on the Indies and in NXT are the same people who'll know the backstories to Ohno/Itami

    So really we're aiming towards the same people in the crowd, yet I'm doing it with the last 2/3 years in NXT while yours is mainly aimed at Drew being labelled "Chosen One" 8 years ago

    The whole point of my guys having a backstory is to bring 3 guys together for a reason, yours is 3 guys randomly thrown together ala Shield and that would be fair enough if Drew wasn't the leader and focus point of your group, but we just accept that these cool looking dudes in Black and Dain are behind him 100% just cause?

    Not being in shape hasn't held back Kevin Owens has it? Don't send out Ohno is briefs and his shape is forgotten. Dain would be of a similar size in comparison to his own body, but its okay for him and not Ohno?

    You also say its about build up and pay off? Look how thats working out for Balor now losing his match with Lesnar at the Rumble and people being sick of Nakamura and Roode doing nothing of note on SD. It can't all be about build up if nothings ever happening, thats just cockteasing.

    "The group would need to overcome greater and greater obstacles to maintain their aura of being a big deal"
    The whole point of this is to recreate the impact of The Shield. How many massive names did they beat in their initial matches? Slow buildup isn't always the way to go. What my guys have is the fact they're the dominant trio in WWE, similar to what The Shield did so much of their original run.

    My guys are missing someone with physical dominance. I thought we were starting to get past that in 2017? Do we really need the Vince school of thought to remain forever. "Insert image of Vince fawning over muscely men" My guys will be fantastic in ring performers, as we need to have going forward. Thats what should matter, not just size.

    So to end things on my side, you've got a group logically put together with actual aims and a believable reason for them to be together. TSC has a group of 3 guys that are all great on their own thing and doing great the way they are, those 3 absolutely do not need to be in a group together. Nevermind the fact you're ruining someone in Black who could be a legit top guy on his own, association with a random grouping will quickly get rid of any aura around him. For me this is mainly about putting 3 guys together who will benefit from being associated with each other, all are benefiting from the arrangement. With TSC's people the only one benefiting from the group is Drew, it would be like a remake of The Shield with Roman as the main guy and the others as his lackees.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,389 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC

    The question in front of us is "Vince McMahon wants to recreate the magic with a new 3 man team" and how to do it.

    Hot-shotting Hideo, Ohno and Almas into a feud with The Shield, and using that as a build towards a Shield implosion that would overshadow them, isn't the way to create magic. In fact, SureYWouldntYa's entire stance seems to revolve around a very, very short term view (as evident when he says "you're ruining someone in Black who could be a legit top guy on his own", as if The Shield themselves are perfect examples of how a slower build can turn every member of a group into bonafide top level stars...)

    What made the Shield as great as they were was not their backstory, their shared kinship from developmental. It was that you had three guys come in out of nowhere and look, and act, like physical monsters. No one in the general audience really knew or cared about what they had done before they were a combined trio. All that mattered was that when they hit the ring together, you believed they could take down anyone in their path. A presumption that the general audience knows the backstory from NXT is exactly why the likes of Roode, like Nakamura or a whole host of other call ups have struggled in their initial weeks. Whatever acts get called up have to have an immediate impact that is not based on pre-established character arcs in NXT.

    The Shield were lightning in a bottle. You'll never recreate that magic again. But you won't come anywhere close if you try and do it all within a few weeks. A new group is going to need to be established and built up as solid contenders over a longer period of time, with a sustained push.

    Any new group coming up needs to be established on Raw or Smackdown from scratch, built up over a long period of time, and then seek a larger pay off down the road. Thinking you can hotshot three guys, especially ones with issues such as Hideo/Ohno, into not just a main event but nearly a step above that, within a month of their main roster debut is foolish. Whatever group is formed needs to be able to carry an aura that's cultivated over a time, with a goal of a payoff down the road.

    This, ultimately, is the crux of my arguement. I've chosen three guys who LOOK like they can kill you, and will back it up in the ring. I've started them off slower, sure, but thats to build, with a sense of anticipation, to a long term pay off. Magic is not made over night. It needs to be cultivated.

    Thanks for reading.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe

    last call for votes