Whats the next big Luas project ?

tallaghtfornia

Now as the cross city project is coming to a close was just wondering what bordies think the next big Luas project will be.

Extension of the green line to Bray using the reminder of the old Harcourt Street line ? Or maybe Luas to Lucan ?

Wheety

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

Now as the cross city project is coming to a close was just wondering what bordies think the next big Luas project will be.

Extension of the green line to Bray using the reminder of the old Harcourt Street line ? Or maybe Luas to Lucan ?

Palmerstown and Lucan please. The busses :mad:

Sierra Oscar

I'd like to see the Green line extended from Broombridge to Finglas, with the possiblity of a Park and Ride facility if it's feasible to extend to a site off the M50.

bk

Metro North/Dublin Metro. I know you said Luas, but really you should be asking what the next big rail project is. Anyway, Metro North is most likely to be a Luas style project (same agencies and companies involved, very similar specs, etc.). In some ways it is a Luas Undergound.

afatbollix

Use that €13 billion from Apple and build out to Finglas and the airport.

Luas down to Bray

Metro North

Luas out to Lucan With a tunnel in central Dublin and out the other side to DCU.

I think I still have €10 billon to spend.....

afatbollix

afatbollix wrote: »

Use that €13 billion from Apple and build out to Finglas and the airport.

Luas down to Bray

Metro North

Luas out to Lucan With a tunnel in central Dublin and out the other side to DCU.

I think I still have €10 billon to spend.....

Here we go again

January

LUAS to Blanchardstown please.

bk

afatbollix wrote: »

Luas down to Bray

Metro North

I suspect the Luas to Bray won't happen until the southern end of the Green Luas line is upgraded to Metro standard, probably as part of the Dublin Metro/Metro North project.

The Luas is already over-capacity at peak time, so extending the line wouldn't make sense without also substantially upgrading the capacity of the Luas line by making it Metro.

I'm delighted to see people shouting for more Luas/Metro projects now that Luas Cross City is completing.

Please get in contact with your local TD's and make them aware that the people of Dublin want more Luas/Metro NOW.

knowledge88888

It baffles me the time and money spent on the luas. Its not a huge project. Its a scam. If they just built it and stop blocking up roads pretending to work. Ive seen parts city hole dug, then fenced off and not touched for months. Crazy. If it was private it would be built year max at least 1/3 budget

bk

knowledge88888 wrote: »

It baffles me the time and money spent on the luas. Its not a huge project. Its a scam. If they just built it and stop blocking up roads pretending to work. Ive seen parts city hole dug, then fenced off and not touched for months. Crazy. If it was private it would be built year max at least 1/3 budget

Scam! It carries 34 million people a year and is expected to grow by 10 to 12 million with the opening of Luas Cross City, which would mean it would carry more then the entire Irish Rail network!

It was in fact built by private contractors. Note that there was a lot of unseen work that needed to be done due to Victorian cellars under the route and of course all the sewage and cables of an entire city under the route. Unfortunately lines through the heart of a busy city are expensive and complicated to do.

If you want an example of a badly run Tram project, just look at the Edinburgh Tram. Just 1 14 km long line took 7 years to build and ended up costing £1 billion and carries just 5 million people!

By comparison Luas is a massive success.

L1011

afatbollix wrote: »

Use that €13 billion from Apple and build out to Finglas and the airport.

Luas down to Bray

Metro North

Luas out to Lucan With a tunnel in central Dublin and out the other side to DCU.

I think I still have €10 billon to spend.....

There is no 13bn from Apple. Pretty much every cent of it would have to be remitted to other EEA countries.

magicbastarder

bk wrote: »

It was in fact built by private contractors. Note that there was a lot of unseen work that needed to be done due to Victorian cellars under the route and of course all the sewage and cables of an entire city under the route. Unfortunately lines through the heart of a busy city are expensive and complicated to do.

i'm not sure if the complainant was making the same complaint i've heard many people make - the 'why didn't they go start to finish on one street first before moving to the next, instead of digging up the whole city at the same time' - which ignores the massive extra costs that would entail. the teams who fill in the cellars are not necessarily the same as the teams who lay the foundations, who are not the same teams as the ones who lay the tracks, etc.
repeatedly calling these people back would have been colossal money.

server down

L1011 wrote: »

There is no 13bn from Apple. Pretty much every cent of it would have to be remitted to other EEA countries.

That’s not true at all. Corporation tax doesn’t work like that.

server down

Personally I’d like to see the luas complete a circle in the city centre. From the point across the bridge and back to heuston. Maybe to inichore.

L1011

server down wrote: »

That’s not true at all. Corporation tax doesn’t work like that.

The ruling that stated it was owed absolutely does work like that. We accept the 13Bn and we won't see a cent of it and our entire corporation tax base is gone.

If you think the ruling was just that we hadn't charged them domestic corporation tax and wahey, 13Bn windfall you are dangerous misinformed.

server down

L1011 wrote: »

The ruling that stated it was owed absolutely does work like that. We accept the 13Bn and we won't see a cent of it and our entire corporation tax base is gone.

If you think the ruling was just that we hadn't charged them domestic corporation tax and wahey, 13Bn windfall you are dangerous misinformed.

Well I could be although I tend to find that people who use the term “dangerously misinformed” on the internet are always wrong. However I am no expert and merely assumed that when the press, financial websites, the economist and and others reported, including ms Vestager herself, that the taxes were due to Ireland (and my knowledge of how corporation tax works). Here’s the Irish times report at the time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/vestager-says-ireland-owed-almost-all-the-13-billion-of-apple-back-taxes-1.2958233?mode=amp

One of many.

Also the tax base isn’t under threat from this ruling. That would need EU wide legislation on tax harmonisation.

L1011

server down wrote: »

Well I could be although I tend to find that people who use the term “dangerously misinformed” on the internet are always wrong. However I am no expert and merely assumed that when the press, financial websites and others reported that the taxes were due to Ireland (and my knowledge of how corporation tax works). Here’s the Irish times report at the time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/vestager-says-ireland-owed-almost-all-the-13-billion-of-apple-back-taxes-1.2958233?mode=amp

One of many.

You very selectively read the press.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/19/apple-cut-euro-13bn-irish-tax-bill-spreads-payments-eu-us

etc etc.

There is 13bn windfall. There never was, there never will be. Certain political parties act as if there is one as they need it to fund fantasy spending.

If we accept the judgement, we open the door to every EEA state looking for their corporation tax to be paid on the amounts in question - from the 13bn. Hence why its being fought.

server down

L1011 wrote: »

You very selectively read the press.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/19/apple-cut-euro-13bn-irish-tax-bill-spreads-payments-eu-us

etc etc.

There is 13bn windfall. There never was, there never will be. Certain political parties act as if there is one as they need it to fund fantasy spending.

If we accept the judgement, we open the door to every EEA state looking for their corporation tax to be paid on the amounts in question - from the 13bn. Hence why its being fought.

The guardian is highly misleading about corporate tax, so maybe readers of that rag are dangerously misinformed. It also minces words. Some tax may have to paid.

The Irish times report is pretty clear that most of the tax due in Ireland and it’s quoting Vestager reporting to the Oireachtas . That’s the way corporate tax works. It’s taxed at source not consumption.

Other countries would have to prove transfer pricing which could only be happening in the Apple retail stores. In fact the only taxes owed across Europe outside Ireland by Apple are taxes on the retail store profits in those respective countries. That’s because the retail stores have to be owned by a subsidiary of Apple but have to be incorporated in the countries where they sell and owe taxes on retail profits where they are incorporated. If Apple has no retail stores in countries, it has no corporate tax to pay regardless of revenue. Even if it engaged in some transfer pricing it wouldn’t come near 13bn.

And why do these countries have to wait anyway? If they have problems with Apple retail they can investigate now. It’s not related.

L1011

server down wrote: »

The guardian is highly misleading about corporate tax, so maybe readers of that rag are dangerously misinformed. It also minces words. Some tax may have to paid.

You clearly have a set position on this. You're wrong though. And the Guardian is not a rag under any definition.

There will never be a 13bn windfall, or realistically even a 130m one. It is not relevant to transport planning because it will never happen. May as well figure out what you'd spend the Euromillions on, as its more likely to occur.

server down

L1011 wrote: »

You clearly have a set position on this. You're wrong though. And the Guardian is not a rag under any definition.

It’s hopelessly populist on how corporation tax works.

There will never be a 13bn windfall, or realistically even a 130m one. It is not relevant to transport planning because it will never happen. May as well figure out what you'd spend the Euromillions on, as its more likely to occur.

My set position is the truth. I mean I sent you a link where ms Vestager says herself that most of the tax is due here, and that merely requires a basic understanding of corporate tax. Corporate tax is never owed in countries where products are consumed. The consumption tax is VAT.

There's plenty of other places to discuss the Apple tax bill, a thread on the luas is not one

lawred2

knowledge88888 wrote: »

It baffles me the time and money spent on the luas. Its not a huge project. Its a scam. If they just built it and stop blocking up roads pretending to work. Ive seen parts city hole dug, then fenced off and not touched for months. Crazy. If it was private it would be built year max at least 1/3 budget

Well that's just all nonsense

bren2002

The green line cant be extended any further down the old harcourt line to bray. The line has been filled in a built on through shankill.

I think the option is to go around rathmichael and down crinken lane to a new (unbuilt) shanganagh suburb and link with dart at the same point, ie a new station between shankill and bray.

Realistically though with all the building happening in cherrywood and along the ballyogan rd there needs to be a major uplift in capacity.

machiavellianme

Surely the next big Luas project has to be the replacement of drivers with robots / automation?

runnerholic

Has to come to Lucan. We're choking in traffic here.

magicbastarder

i wonder what would be the best route to serve lucan? branch off the red line at inchicore, and take in liffey valley on the way? i guess there'd be capacity issues on the red line then though.

Cookie_Monster

Multiple shorter integrated lines with smaller trams rather than the monstrous ones they're currently going for IMO.
Need to develop an actual network rather than a couple of individual lines.

lawred2

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Multiple shorter integrated lines with smaller trams rather than the monstrous ones they're currently going for IMO.
Need to develop an actual network rather than a couple of individual lines.

what exactly would you integrate with without the main trunk lines?

Cookie_Monster

lawred2 wrote: »

what exactly would you integrate with without the main trunk lines?

the main lines are already in place... my point being there is no need to just look at another long single line from A to B with a single point of connection.

lawred2

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the main lines are already in place... my point being there is no need to just look at another long single line from A to B with a single point of connection.

There's only two lines. I'd hardly consider that a finished job.

It's shouldn't be an either or situation anyway.

LeinsterDub

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Multiple shorter integrated lines with smaller trams rather than the monstrous ones they're currently going for IMO.
Need to develop an actual network rather than a couple of individual lines.

That would destroy frequency

LeinsterDub

runnerholic wrote: »

Has to come to Lucan. We're choking in traffic here.

Like pretty much every where else in Dublin

strandroad

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would destroy frequency

How? It's a standard in Europe, often with 3 or 4 min frequency.

GerardKeating

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wonder what would be the best route to serve lucan? branch off the red line at inchicore, and take in liffey valley on the way? i guess there'd be capacity issues on the red line then though.

The original plan for Luas Line F, was to join the Red line near Bluebell, split away near James Hospital and follow the canal and Dame street to join the Green line.

It was however due to open by 2013.

LeinsterDub

strandroad wrote: »

How? It's a standard in Europe, often with 3 or 4 min frequency.

We are already maxed out in terms of capacity at peak on both green and red lines. We'd need 5 or 6 more truck lines first

IE 222

Personally I'd like a spur built between Suir Rd - Grand Canal Dock. Its one of the busiest traffic routes in the country for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians and not even one bus travels the route. This would also provide connections to Dart and Green line Luas eliminating the need to travel into the city centre for transferring from one line to another.

The canal is not used any more and can be easily narrowed to allow a running line and have the road widened slightly to allow one continuous bidirectional cycle lane to be installed.

Construction could also allow a rebuild of many of dangerous bridges and awfully planned juctions hopefully allowing some under/over passes especially in Harolds Cross and Portobello.

A second route id like to see is and a line built from Smithfield through the Phoenix Park to Blanc with a Spur branched off to Lucan. Using the park would eliminate numerous stop giving a faster journey time directly to the areas served. Building a large transfer luas station on the waste land opp the Law Library (Smithfield stop) would give enough space for 2 through platforms and 3 turn back platforms.

L1011

I suspect the canal banks are listed and there would be massive opposition to narrowing it even if not.

lawred2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would destroy frequency

Like the Howth dart spur?

MGWR

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

Now as the cross city project is coming to a close was just wondering what bordies think the next big Luas project will be.

Extension of the green line to Bray using the reminder of the old Harcourt Street line? Or maybe Luas to Lucan?

Should be none. Luas is slow, congested, unable to take on more passengers due to lack of capacity, and per many anecdotes seems to attract anti-social types. Whatever tramway segments exist (mostly in the city centre) ought to be replaced with underground metro, and stations ought to be barrier-fare-controlled with platforms lengthened.

The Harcourt Street Line should have been underground DART from Bray to Maynooth anyway with stops at Trinity College, GPO and Broadstone while getting rid of the Broombridge station. And speaking of Lucan, the Adamstown station is already open, but the former Lucan North station on the Maynooth service (adjacent to Laraghcon and with a connecting local bus service on the 239) does need to be reopened.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

I suspect the canal banks are listed and there would be massive opposition to narrowing it even if not.

Not sure if they are listed but narrowing the canal leaving the northern bank untouched would be possible for most of the section. There is 10 - 15 foot of litte used space in many parts of the southern bank between the path and the water. Some parts wouldnt even require the canal it self to be narrowed.

Of course there would be people opposed to the idea but overall it would benefit most. The canal infrastructure is causing its own issues on transport and really is taking up a lot of useful space with little or no return. Most of the current walkways ect would remain intact also allowing the removal of the cycle track on the northern bank.

dazberry

GerardKeating wrote: »

The original plan for Luas Line F, was to join the Red line near Bluebell, split away near James Hospital and follow the canal and Dame street to join the Green line.

Some of the Line F plan notably around the split at James never seemed to be finalised, but my understanding was that it would run down James St and Thomas St to terminate in College Green. There was the provision of a set of points at Trinity College in the cross city plans but these were never constructed.

If Line F was to be built, and sharing the canal segment of the existing Red Line, I would like to see it split at Suir Rd, follow the canal until Cork Street and proceed down Cork Street into Stephens Green.

D.

jimmycrackcorm

magicbastarder wrote:

i wonder what would be the best route to serve lucan? branch off the red line at inchicore, and take in liffey valley on the way? i guess there'd be capacity issues on the red line then though.

With the Clonburris development plan under easy, it would make sense to take that into account.

LeinsterDub

lawred2 wrote: »

Like the Howth dart spur?

The DART's frequency is destroyed by main line trains

traveller0101

Some more tramlines from the southside into the city centre please

Mutant z

What was wasted on the LUAS should have been spend building a Metro system much more needed IMO, it should have been built there and then when the money was available now it will be years if ever before our capital city gets a much needed underground system.

Phil.x

I'd like to see a line to blanch/ongar area, another to Lucan and then the piece de resistance a line from howth to bray following the m50 route.

TallGlass

A Luas around the M50

Phil.x

We don't need a metro north, we have the port tunnel!! If on a aircoach at the airport how long does it take to get to the city through the tunnel...20mins Max I'd say.

Phil.x

TallGlass wrote: »

A Luas around the M50

Yes, and I'd say people stuck in traffic on it day in day out and paying for it would like that option.

eeguy

bk wrote: »

Scam! It carries 34 million people a year and is expected to grow by 10 to 12 million with the opening of Luas Cross City, which would mean it would carry more then the entire Irish Rail network!
people!
By comparison Luas is a massive success.

The cross city LUAS was a nightmare to plan. They had to dig right through the heart of Dublin, through centuries of infrastructure, move thousands of tonnes of material, rail and concrete in and out, manage people and traffic, keep businesses happy, integrate both lines and meet their deadlines.

Hats off to whoever planned it, they did a fantastic job.

magicbastarder

Phil.x wrote: »

We don't need a metro north, we have the port tunnel!! If on a aircoach at the airport how long does it take to get to the city through the tunnel...20mins Max I'd say.

please tell me you're joking?