Most reliable car of all time?

redcup342

Saw this today, jesus never realised they put so much thought into it !

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-dependable-car-in-human-history-and-car-manufacturer

Without any doubt, THE most dependable car ever built was Citroen’s 2CV Sahara Bi-Motor 4-wheel drive. For dependability, even in the harshest conditions, nothing else even comes close!

Reading through the post I can't think of another car with that many redundancies in it.

Anyone have any ?

Very subjective and I'm surprised at the 2CV suggestion tbh.

Toyotafanboi

Carina E.

Thread closed.

seannash

Didn't Topgear leave a Hilux on a beach and had the tide completely submerge it, Drop it from a height, crash it and burn and still got it running with some very basic tools.

Del2005

Much like a broken watch is the most accurate in the world a car that won't start could be considered the most reliable, you can rely on it not starting

crosstownk

Del2005 wrote: »

Much like a broken watch is the most accurate in the world a car that won't start could be considered the most reliable, you can rely on it not starting

Yeah, but the beauty of broken watch is that it will be right twice each day.

JohnBoy26

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Carina E.

Thread closed.

The carina II was more reliable, probably one of the most reliable cars ever tbh. Id also give a vote to the 1996-2001 ej/ek civic.

joujoujou

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Carina E.

[...]

^^ This. ^^

Or Mercedes W123.

Starscream25

Toyota Corolla, plenty mid 90's still on the road today.

Titzon Toast

Pretty much any Honda, take your pick.

Alanstrainor

redcup342 wrote: »

Saw this today, jesus never realised they put so much thought into it !

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-dependable-car-in-human-history-and-car-manufacturer





Reading through the post I can't think of another car with that many redundancies in it.

Anyone have any ?

What an interesting thing. I love some crazy French engineering.

Moomat

Starscream25 wrote: »

Toyota Corolla, plenty mid 90's still on the road today.

I have a '96 1.3 Corolla and would be very reluctant to change. It does everything I need a car to do at the moment.

Just from casual observation, it certainly seems that they make up a large portion of early to mid 90's cars on the road.

monkeysnapper

I've got a Citroen c4 . they seem to have dropped standards since the 2cv haven't they.

Wouldn't fancy my chances against a rhino driving it on the school run.

fancy pigeon

I can rely on plenty of bickering to follow... Does that count?

I vote a UK imported 2008 Peugeot 307 1.6HDi SW. Trounces any old Carina 2 :cool:

selectamatic

2008-2012 insignia

Mycroft H

Some of the PSA group diesels were extremely reliable.  The XUD for example.

Kenny Logins

Has to be a beetle (a good one). They were designed to run reliably on poor quality fuel and in any weather/climate. Very little to go wrong. The engines are even used in aircraft.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

CalamariFritti

Mercedes W123 200d?

The Mulk

2nd Gen Nissan Almera. There must be a million of them on the road in Ireland still...

biko

Old Volvo

Cee-Jay-Cee

My vote is for EG/EJ Civic with D series engine. Super reliable cars, engines and transmission.

ION08

There are numerous examples of over engineered, super reliable cars from the 80's and 90's and even early 00's

Carina, Corollas, Merc W123d, 90's Peugeot Diesels, K11 Micra etc, Honda's , older gen 1.9 TDI VAG's . list goes on...


Questions is, what super reliable cars are there since 2008 or post 2010

Seems like cars nowdays have really lost their way and there are no more over engineered, bullet proof models

Even successors to cars which had a rep as being super reliable have turned to crap from a pure reliability perspective.

eg Peugeot 406 > 407, K11 Micra > K12 Micra, Mercedes , BMW, Audi etc

jca

Titzon Toast wrote: »

Pretty much any Honda, take your pick.

Not a 2.2 accord anyway!!

JohnBoy26

ION08 wrote: »

There are numerous examples of over engineered, super reliable cars from the 80's and 90's and even early 00's

Carina, Corollas, Merc W123d, 90's Peugeot Diesels, K11 Micra etc, Honda's , older gen 1.9 TDI VAG's . list goes on...


Questions is, what super reliable cars are there since 2008 or post 2010

Seems like cars nowdays have really lost their way and there are no more over engineered, bullet proof models

Even successors to cars which had a rep as being super reliable have turned to crap from a pure reliability perspective.

eg Peugeot 406 > 407, K11 Micra > K12 Micra, Mercedes , BMW, Audi etc

Little goes wrong with corollas and auris's from 08-10 the 06-11 civic in petrol form is also a very reliable car

JohnBoy26

The Mulk wrote: »

2nd Gen Nissan Almera. There must be a million of them on the road in Ireland still...

Those were dreadful yokes, timing chains, gearboxes melted headlights, rust, headgaskets. The 1st almera had decent reliability though.

CalamariFritti

ION08 wrote: »

There are numerous examples of over engineered, super reliable cars from the 80's and 90's and even early 00's

Carina, Corollas, Merc W123d, 90's Peugeot Diesels, K11 Micra etc, Honda's , older gen 1.9 TDI VAG's . list goes on...


Questions is, what super reliable cars are there since 2008 or post 2010

Seems like cars nowdays have really lost their way and there are no more over engineered, bullet proof models

Even successors to cars which had a rep as being super reliable have turned to crap from a pure reliability perspective.

eg Peugeot 406 > 407, K11 Micra > K12 Micra, Mercedes , BMW, Audi etc

I always understood 'over-engineering' having a negative meaning.
More engineering than good or necessary. Something that works fantastic when all is well but needs a lot of minding. Something unreliable, complicated and hard to fix.

I would say those cars you listed are well engineered not over engineered.

Todays cars are over-engineered. Its all those features and the electronics. Todays cars have dozens of control units, computers effectively, all connected through bus systems running through body and chassis. They break and they are expensive. And the mechanical bits are probably much more on the edge in terms of design, production cost, effectivity etc vs durability and reliability.

I think the late 70ies, 80ies and early 90ies produced such good cars because they had rust and mechanical problems more or less sorted and not yet introduced new ones. Like features, electronics and stripping down production cost of every bit of fat possible.

EPAndlee

Any Toyota with a 4efe engine

Del2005

ION08 wrote: »

There are numerous examples of over engineered, super reliable cars from the 80's and 90's and even early 00's

Carina, Corollas, Merc W123d, 90's Peugeot Diesels, K11 Micra etc, Honda's , older gen 1.9 TDI VAG's . list goes on...


Questions is, what super reliable cars are there since 2008 or post 2010

Seems like cars nowdays have really lost their way and there are no more over engineered, bullet proof models

Even successors to cars which had a rep as being super reliable have turned to crap from a pure reliability perspective.

eg Peugeot 406 > 407, K11 Micra > K12 Micra, Mercedes , BMW, Audi etc

Emissions control is what's making newer cars unreliable. Complex systems have more parts than can break, not helped by putting small highly tuned engines into cars now. 90s cars are way simpler than anything from this century and that is why they last.

If you want reliable look at what people use in remote areas and it's descents

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J40)

micks_address

Titzon Toast wrote: »

Pretty much any Honda, take your pick.

While I'm a big fan of honda they do still have issues. In my 05 civic the gearbox bearings went and the steering rack had started to give up when I traded. The early diesel Accords had manifolds that cracked, the 09 accord had rusty sunroof issue's.. my 142 civic had a clutch shudder on start up that they couldn't sort.

I'd say all makes have problems at various stages. Father in law's 05 e class had to be basically scrapped due to electric issues.

Fathers 131 Octavia had an egr replacement.. had an uncle with a brand new avensis that the clutch went in.

A neighbours a6 had an engine give up after two months a few years ago..

So I'd say it's a tough call to make.
Cheers,
Mick

TrailerBob

Del2005 wrote: »

Emissions control is what's making newer cars unreliable. Complex systems have more parts than can break, not helped by putting small highly tuned engines into cars now. 90s cars are way simpler than anything from this century and that is why they last.

If you want reliable look at what people use in remote areas and it's descents

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J40)

This..

It's incredibly easy for a car to be reliable pottering around on good tarmac roads, or cruising endlessly on motorways. The true meaning of reliability is when conditions are tough, and in many cases, when your life depends on the vehicle you choose.. in these cases there are very few that make the grade..

W123 Merc
Peugeot 504
Toyota Landcruiser - several variants
VW Beetle

There are others that do well, but these are my top picks

ION08

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I always understood 'over-engineering' having a negative meaning.
More engineering than good or necessary. Something that works fantastic when all is well but needs a lot of minding. Something unreliable, complicated and hard to fix.

I would say those cars you listed are well engineered not over engineered.

Todays cars are over-engineered. Its all those features and the electronics. Todays cars have dozens of control units, computers effectively, all connected through bus systems running through body and chassis. They break and they are expensive. And the mechanical bits are probably much more on the edge in terms of design, production cost, effectivity etc vs durability and reliability.

I think the late 70ies, 80ies and early 90ies produced such good cars because they had rust and mechanical problems more or less sorted and not yet introduced new ones. Like features, electronics and stripping down production cost of every bit of fat possible.

Possibly. I took “over engineered” to mean that the cars were engineered to such high standards that most often that cars engines and mechanical parts would outlast the body.

You might be right though. I could be misusing the term.

elperello

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/classic/rare-twin-engined-four-wheel-drive-citroen-2cv-goes-hammer/

It's an interesting proposition to pick the most reliable and I guess they were being deliberately controversial with the Citroen but there were only 694 of them produced. For that reason I would class them more as an exotic than a car tested over time in everyday conditions.
There would have been more Corollas produced before the tea break on any day of their production run. You'd be more likely to meet a Ferrari on the road than one of those Citroens. As you can see from the link they are now very rare and collectible.

I'd be inclined to give it to the Corolla or Peugeot 404.

JohnBoy26

micks_address wrote: »

While I'm a big fan of honda they do still have issues. In my 05 civic the gearbox bearings went and the steering rack had started to give up when I traded. The early diesel Accords had manifolds that cracked, the 09 accord had rusty sunroof issue's.. my 142 civic had a clutch shudder on start up that they couldn't sort.

I'd say all makes have problems at various stages. Father in law's 05 e class had to be basically scrapped due to electric issues.

Fathers 131 Octavia had an egr replacement.. had an uncle with a brand new avensis that the clutch went in.

A neighbours a6 had an engine give up after two months a few years ago..

So I'd say it's a tough call to make.
Cheers,
Mick

Honda in general are excellent though. They have had a few issues on some of their models but still they are very decent even if they are not bombproof like the 90's hondas.

This to me was the very best.



They would still drive like day one even with 300k miles and they were a much better car than the much vaunted but overrated carina e which was actually one of toyotas poorer efforts back in the day(by toyota standards) especially uk built examples.

Needles73

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Carina E.

Thread closed.

Ahhhhh no. The Japanese built ones yes, not the British built ones. (Plus a lot of them had power steering failure). The 02 model diesel Corolla on the other hand-far more reliable !!

elperello

Carina E great car
Carina 2 legend

JohnBoy26

Del2005 wrote: »

Emissions control is what's making newer cars unreliable. Complex systems have more parts than can break, not helped by putting small highly tuned engines into cars now. 90s cars are way simpler than anything from this century and that is why they last.

If you want reliable look at what people use in remote areas and it's descents

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser_(J40)

Yeah but there was still some pretty unreliable cars back then too and not all cars today are unreliable even with emission controls in place. The majority of naturally aspirated modern petrol cars for example are still very reliable even though they have small emissions.

JohnBoy26

selectamatic wrote: »

2008-2012 insignia

Reliable at not being reliable

Harry Palmr

Peugeot 505 diesel

theoneeyedman

The mid 90's early 00's was the golden era alright, especially for 'cheap'/affordable Japanese cars, like the Carina2/Avensis, XLi Corolla, roundy Micra, square Primera etc etc.
If you work manufacturing, you will be sick of listening to Toyota and Lean Manufacturing BS. IMHO, this has had a huge detrimental effect on the actual cars, they are being made cheaper and have any 'gold plating' or over engineering removed bit by bit. We had an 05 avensis here, and replaced it with an 08. In the 3 years, the feel and quality of the car felt wrong, and IMHO cost 'improvements' played a part in that. The mid 00 corolla is not as well designed or put together as the older XLi one.

JimmyMcGill

I remember we had an old Opel Kadett estate that thing took some abuse and no love whatsoever but withstood everything easily. 768DIF what a car. Prompted the father to splash out new on an 84 Kadett the biggest heap of sh1t ever came out of a factory. Flogged that for an 88 Carina 2. I wouldnt be surprised if its still going. Brother bought a 91 next generation Carina 2 on the strength of the father's success and that too turned out to be a right turnip.
Who's to say? I think it comes down to each individual car myself, bar the blatant lemons.

Wibbs

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Todays cars are over-engineered. Its all those features and the electronics. Todays cars have dozens of control units, computers effectively, all connected through bus systems running through body and chassis. They break and they are expensive. And the mechanical bits are probably much more on the edge in terms of design, production cost, effectivity etc vs durability and reliability.

I think the late 70ies, 80ies and early 90ies produced such good cars because they had rust and mechanical problems more or less sorted and not yet introduced new ones. Like features, electronics and stripping down production cost of every bit of fat possible.

+1. The level of complexity has gone way up. In my humble, pre circa the 70's cars tended to be agricultural and fully mechanical and weren't designed for the most part to last a long time. Now being agricultural and fully mechanical it does mean they're more easily maintainable even down to today. One could also say that about very early cars. They were very agricultural and handmade so if a hand can build them, another later hand can fix them. EG a Type 35 Bugatti could be maintained with hammers, decent measuring kit and a lathe.

For me the "golden era" for potential long term reliability is from about the mid 80s' to 2000. The cars had passed the point where you needed to grease up your trunnions on a regular basis and fiddle with your points and that was before(again for the most part) the IT electronics took over. Even the electronics in that period were stone age compared to today, didn't control so many systems and could be reproducible on the cheap these days if need be.

I was reminded of that only last week. A lass I know has a mid noughties Renault and her throttle was acting up and the car was cutting out. Her mechanic had narrowed it down(IIRC) to either the leccy dohicky in the pedal, or the leccy dohicky at the intake end, or in the ECU. In my late 90's Honda - actually early 90's in design - the loud, there goes me licence pedal is connected to the engine by a dumb old stylee steel cable*. It's either connected or snapped(or maybe needs adjusting).

That's before we get to ever more complex systems in suspension and braking and steering, never mind all the internal mod cons. Add complexity, add faults longterm and more entropy. Cars have gotten heavier too, which also affects potential longevity. Mechanical bits can be repaired or reengineered, complex computer bits once they go obsolete not so much, or it's harder, especially as complexity increases. Take the McLaren F1 from the early 90's. For a time McLaren who have promised lifetime maintenance on them were buying ancient laptops to talk to the ECU(and it requires a new petrol tank after so many miles/years and the drive shafts need replacing on the regular etc etc).

The main issue with the "golden age" cars and pretty much most cars is corrosion and metal fatigue. Mainly the former. Rust proofing wasn't great back then in most cases and even galvanising gives up the fight after a time. If you can keep the tin worm at bay then something like a 90's Toyota will likely outlive God.

You want fixable, agricultural and mad longevity?



Ford Model T. Though the gearbox is a nightmare and its not exactly user friendly, it's very agricultural, the steel it's made from is incredibly resistant to corrosion and a blacksmith could repair it. Funny enough one of the advertising slogans at the time was "the only car you'll ever need". It was seen as a lifetime, or near enough car. Kinda like a house. On that score we could build a near lifetime car today, but the consumer culture would reject it. Don't start me on people buying cars on "green" concerns... Somebody driving a 50's VW Beetle over decades is more "green" than a Leaf driver.





*which IMHO also gives a better connection and "feel" and yep I can tell the diff. My mechanic who is also a mate, didn't believe me and "tested" me and is now a believer. Though he did say "you're effin weird",

demanufactured

seannash wrote: »

Didn't Topgear leave a Hilux on a beach and had the tide completely submerge it, Drop it from a height, crash it and burn and still got it running with some very basic tools.

Yep . But they actually declared the range rover to be the most reliable car ever.

Pinch Flat

Had three hondas, 91 civic 98 civic and a 2002 accord. Each one bomb proof. Each serviced regularly - Other than replacing the AC hose on the accord, can’t recall any other fails.

gctest50

Car and driver ? Packard

( lol @ arms at 00:42 seconds in )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMdi8NZUscY

Tuco88

Well being most names have been said....

Im gona mention the 80/90s Ford transit van, what a dog of a thing. Notorious diesel and transmission noise a classic gives me a smile every time. The body rust was the only issue.

Also the D series lorry and Cargo. I cant tell you how many times iv come across a D series engine stuck in a Boat/tractor.

selectamatic

Tuco88 wrote: »

Also the D series lorry and Cargo. I cant tell you how many times iv come across a D series engine stuck in a Boat/tractor.

Great shout they're a tank of an engine the lorries were mighty too but rust was the main killer. I've a cargo horsebox located that was in hiding that I'm hoping to cannibalize for a 6 cylinder major swap should funds free up; eventually...

Del2005

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Yeah but there was still some pretty unreliable cars back then too and not all cars today are unreliable even with emission controls in place. The majority of naturally aspirated modern petrol cars for example are still very reliable even though they have small emissions.

Of course there where unreliable cars and there always will be unreliable cars. But the more complex an item is the more likely it is to break. Look at the urban legend of the USA spending millions to make a pen that'll work in zero G and the Soviet's using a pencil, both are reliable but one has more chance of a part failing.

The other issue with new cars is that no one knows how to fix them, you have to stick it on diagnostics and replace the part it tells you. Then you get told another part is faulty and replace that. Eventually after several diagnostic sessions someone thinks to check the wiring and its a short causing spurious errors due to Can Bus wiring . Cars from the late 80s to early noughties had much simpler electrics that usually could be diagnosed by a good mechanic listening to it.

Noveight

How did the E10 Corollas fair out in terms of reliability? I know of 2 which are still used locally as daily drivers and a third which was only retired recently.

gctest50

Del2005 wrote: »

........

The other issue with new cars is that no one knows how to fix them, you have to stick it on diagnostics and replace the part it tells you. Then you get told another part is faulty and replace that. Eventually after several diagnostic sessions someone thinks to check the wiring and its a short causing spurious errors due to Can Bus wiring . ..........

That's someone not being able to diagnose though - always been there that.

Jim Murphy 69

MK1 Lexus LS400 - 1UZ-FE (Astonishingly reliable vehicle in almost every way). Engine is also aviation certified if I remember correctly!

The only vehicles to compare in terms of engineering levels of quality are the 3 cars to come out of the Takanezawa plant in Tochigi, Japan. Hondas finest only worked at the plant so only the best and brightest assembled the following;

1. Honda NSX

NSX is arguably the finest made car ever made. Panel gap tolerances are measured in the microns! Astonishing engine and overall design package.

2. Honda S2000

Unparalleled reliability record for an engine that goes over 9k! F20C engine will go down as THE best 4 cylinder NA engine ever assembled into a road car.

3. Honda Insight MK1 (Marmite car)

1 liter, 3 cylinder, lean burn engine that has been known to top 600,000 miles without pausing for breath. Honda lost about 35% on each car sold simply to highlight how good they could make a hybrid and by god they didn't disappoint. Full aluminium body and an average of 83MPG back in 1999! Back then, Honda were untouchable!

As I have discussed on these forums before car manufacturers now care more about short term profits than producing a good car. Imagine cars such as these coming along now and literally losing money on each one. The Takanezawa plant closed down for being too expensive to operate and is now a R&D center.

It is a shame because the 90's were are a bygone era where cars were made to last, none of this planned obsolescence in mind. Engineers were allowed to implement designs without analyzing economic data. No wonder economics takes up such a large portion when studying engineering these days, it's the world we live in!