VRT

Sarah 1111

Hi - I have brought in a Peugeot 307 estate car from the UK. It is registered on log book as a seven seater. However these cars were all sold in the UK and in Ireland with five seats (as an estate car) with bolts in the floor and additional seat belts for the OPTION of an additional two seats. All this is clear if you look in the back of the car and in the manual. BUT the fellow at the VRT is refusing to register the car as he says it should have 7 seats and I have modified it to reduce it to 5 seats. He wants me to pay 200 euros to get an engineers report to say it has been modified. It has NOT been modified. It NEVER had seven seats, it has the OPTION of 7 seats. The Peugeot dealers (at head office in Ireland in the UK) are scratching their heads.
Has anyone had this problem? Do I just have a problem with this particular fellow? How do I solve it?
Extra seats, which I don't need, are expensive.
Thanks for any advice.
I am not disputing the tax amount - just need a new number plate...

colm_mcm

There's the 307 estate, then there's the 307SW, You have an SW. The 'estate' doesn't have the rear belts AFAIK You are correct abuout the SW having the seat belts there for the rear seats with the option of seats. I'd imagine they'd all have to be registered as 7 seats regardless.

One option might be getting a lend of rear seats. I think 308SW seats fit too.

Isambard

How do you solve it? get an engineers report I suspect.

CiniO

To be honest if logbook says car has 7 seats while in fact it has five, then I thing your vrt fellow is fully right to refuse to register it.

Sarah 1111

That is what he says I have to get - however it costs 175.00 euros plus VAT to say the car has been modified - but it hasn't been modified. Also once that comes they change the car to say it has five seats and then the bolts in the floor are still there and the extra seatbelts which means anyone in the future can still add a seat but it will then be illegal because the log book has changed....

Sarah 1111

I asked Peugeot head office and they said because the car is capable and set up to take 7 seats it must say that on the log book. However they sell them with five (as an estate) and then people can buy extra if and when they need them (500 euros new).
I just can't believe I am the only person since 2006 when this car came in that has had this issue.

Del2005

Sarah 1111 wrote: »

I asked Peugeot head office and they said because the car is capable and set up to take 7 seats it must say that on the log book. However they sell them with five (as an estate) and then people can buy extra if and when they need them (500 euros new).
I just can't believe I am the only person since 2006 when this car came in that has had this issue.

Can you ask to see the VLC for an Irish registered 307 similar to yours? Check donedeal and other sites for one in a close by dealership if you can't get it from Peugeot, pretend to be buying and want to make sure that the VIN matches the VLC.

If they have 7 seats on the VLC then you can ask Peugeot how they VRTd them without the back seats, if 5 you'll need to get a loan of rear seats or pay for the report.

Sarah 1111

colm_mcm wrote: »

There's the 307 estate, then there's the 307SW, You have an SW. The 'estate' doesn't have the rear belts AFAIK You are correct abuout the SW having the seat belts there for the rear seats with the option of seats. I'd imagine they'd all have to be registered as 7 seats regardless.

One option might be getting a lend of rear seats. I think 308SW seats fit too.

Yes, I did think I might have to do that - but it seems so pedantic - when the car was obviously designed (too clever by half) to be optional of 7 seats.

He actually told me that I probably wouldn't be insured if I was driving around with only five seats, in estate mode, rather than seven because the weight of the car would be altered... The weight of the seat is less than a suitcase or a person so plainly nonsense.

Sarah 1111

Del2005 wrote: »

Can you ask to see the VLC for an Irish registered 307 similar to yours? Check donedeal and other sites for one in a close by dealership if you can't get it from Peugeot, pretend to be buying and want to make sure that the VIN matches the VLC.

If they have 7 seats on the VLC then you can ask Peugeot how they VRTd them without the back seats, if 5 you'll need to get a loan of rear seats or pay for the report.

I asked our local Peugeot dealer (who I bought our previous car from) who said all estate cars in Ireland were sold with five seats only - but with the option of adding and extra one or two at any time - so yes, it says seven seats. The fellow I spoke to actually has the same car himself and said that when it goes to NCT it comes back marked that two seats are missing - still passes though.

colm_mcm

Sarah 1111 wrote: »

Yes, I did think I might have to do that - but it seems so pedantic - when the car was obviously designed (too clever by half) to be optional of 7 seats.

He actually told me that I probably wouldn't be insured if I was driving around with only five seats, in estate mode, rather than seven because the weight of the car would be altered... The weight of the seat is less than a suitcase or a person so plainly nonsense.

Loads of older 7 seaters have removable back row seats.

Sarah 1111

CiniO wrote: »

To be honest if logbook says car has 7 seats while in fact it has five, then I thing your vrt fellow is fully right to refuse to register it.

If that is the case he will have refused every single estate car imported into Ireland that has this system. Peugeot said that most estate cars have the same option and are sold with only five seats, giving people the option of buying more if required. They told me Citroen are the only ones that actually sold the car with all seven seats in the vehicle.

colm_mcm

Nah. It’s very rare to have an estate car with extra seat belts as standard. Very rare as in maybe 3 models. It’s also very rare to have an 7 seat estate in the first place.

Sarah 1111

colm_mcm wrote: »

There's the 307 estate, then there's the 307SW, You have an SW. The 'estate' doesn't have the rear belts AFAIK You are correct abuout the SW having the seat belts there for the rear seats with the option of seats. I'd imagine they'd all have to be registered as 7 seats regardless.

One option might be getting a lend of rear seats. I think 308SW seats fit too.

I rang the local breakers yard and they have only one seat for the 307SW available, for 50 euros - good to know that the 308SW has the same seats. Asking for a loan from a friend is a good idea - will ask around.
However, still think it is mad - when the car was clearly designed to be OPTIONAL seven seats (its very clear in the manual that only five were supplied).

Sarah 1111

colm_mcm wrote: »

Loads of older 7 seaters have removable back row seats.

Exactly. This one is 2006. The manual is very clear that the car is intended to be driven with five seats or six or seven and has the bolts in the floor and seat belts to allow for changing the configuration around. Quite clever design but too clever for the VRT fellow unfortunately... Or to be kind to him, too clever for his form that he has to tick the box of....

Sarah 1111

Anyway, thanks everyone - I am waiting to hear back from head office in the UK - to see if they will give me a report saying the car was sold when new with five seats but states seven to allow for an extra two to be added if required. Then I have to send that to the DVLA in Swansea to see if they will change the log book from seven to 5/7.

colm_mcm

Sarah 1111 wrote: »

Exactly. This one is 2006. The manual is very clear that the car is intended to be driven with five seats or six or seven and has the bolts in the floor and seat belts to allow for changing the configuration around. Quite clever design but too clever for the VRT fellow unfortunately... Or to be kind to him, too clever for his form that he has to tick the box of....

They don’t even bolt in! There’s just spring latches that go into those holes in the floor



Someone once said that the middle row middle seat also fits in the rearmost row. Not sure how true that is but it’s worth trying as it’d mean getting a spare would be easier.

Sarah 1111

colm_mcm wrote: »

They don’t even bolt in! There’s just spring latches that go into those holes in the floor



Someone once said that the middle row middle seat also fits in the rearmost row. Not sure how true that is but it’s worth trying as it’d mean getting a spare would be easier.

The set up for the rear (third row) seats is the same as for the second row. You can move the middle and / or the side seats into the rear (third row). They hook on to a bar on the floor and then click back into the hole in the floor - exactly the same way the second row seats fit in.

So finding spares to fit in shouldn't be too hard - the local breakers yard has only one seat for this model for sale at the moment - but its also the principle of the thing! Don't want to have to buy and then store spare seats I don't need. Every mechanic I have spoken to just rolls their eyes.

Will try to borrow some....

Del2005

If Peugeot have registered them as 5 seaters you should be able to.

Is there any issues with going to a different NCT center to see if they will register it? Otherwise I'd be asking for an escalation to revenue as they have already registered these cars with 5 seats so it looks like you just hit a jobsworth.

colm_mcm

Del2005 wrote: »

If Peugeot have registered them as 5 seaters you should be able to.

Have they though?

Del2005

colm_mcm wrote: »

Have they though?

According to the OP they have, see their previous reply to me.

Sarah 1111

Del2005 wrote: »

If Peugeot have registered them as 5 seaters you should be able to.

Is there any issues with going to a different NCT center to see if they will register it? Otherwise I'd be asking for an escalation to revenue as they have already registered these cars with 5 seats so it looks like you just hit a jobsworth.

From my understanding - I called again to the local Peugeot dealer - these cars are registered as seven seaters, because they are capable and designed to take seven seats. However they were all imported into Ireland with only five seats actually in the car and any purchaser has to order additional seats if they want them.

The Peugeot dealer thinks I hit a jobsworth and can't understand why he didn't see that the car is obviously designed so that the seats can be moved about and one or two can be added as desired (or not). Even though it physically had five seats, he could easily have ticked Yes for the Seven seat box as it is geared up to take them. They had to have done this when every Peugeot dealer in the country who has sold these cars imported them in the first place.

Sarah 1111

Del2005 wrote: »

If Peugeot have registered them as 5 seaters you should be able to.

Is there any issues with going to a different NCT center to see if they will register it? Otherwise I'd be asking for an escalation to revenue as they have already registered these cars with 5 seats so it looks like you just hit a jobsworth.

From my understanding - I called again to the local Peugeot dealer - these cars are registered as seven seaters, because they are capable and designed to take seven seats. However they were all imported into Ireland with only five seats actually in the car and any purchaser has to order additional seats if they want them.

The Peugeot dealer thinks I hit a jobsworth and can't understand why he didn't see that the car is obviously designed so that the seats can be moved about and one or two can be added as desired (or not). Even though it physically had five seats, he could easily have ticked Yes for the Seven seat box as it is geared up to take them. They had to have done this when every Peugeot dealer in the country who has sold these cars imported them in the first place. He said he would have lent me two extra seats to keep him happy but hasn't got one in stock at the moment....

Sarah 1111

Sarah 1111 wrote: »

From my understanding - I called again to the local Peugeot dealer - these cars are registered as seven seaters, because they are capable and designed to take seven seats. However they were all imported into Ireland with only five seats actually in the car and any purchaser has to order additional seats if they want them.

The Peugeot dealer thinks I hit a jobsworth and can't understand why he didn't see that the car is obviously designed so that the seats can be moved about and one or two can be added as desired (or not). Even though it physically had five seats, he could easily have ticked Yes for the Seven seat box as it is geared up to take them. They had to have done this when every Peugeot dealer in the country who has sold these cars imported them in the first place. He said he would have lent me two extra seats to keep him happy but hasn't got one in stock at the moment....

Sorry posted twice - my internet is very dodgy here at the moment.... bad since Ophelia....

colm_mcm

If you went in with an Avensis Verso or an old Galaxy or something and the 2 rear seats were out, I can't see how they wouldn't let you register it.

I think you got the wrong person on the day.

Sarah 1111

Tomorrow morning I am going to ring the VRT number and ask to speak to a superviser / customer service person. I think I will just say that I think there must have been a misunderstanding because he was insisting I had altered the car but in fact it is made that way and I can send them the manual to prove it (he didn't actually look at the manual, just inside the car, even though to my very untrained eye it was still pretty obvious how the system worked). At the time of talking to him I was not absolutely certain that the extra seats were optional extras - I now know that they were never in the car in the first place.

If that doesn't work I will do the rounds of local garages who sell second hand cars (I personally know 3 local to me and there are several more in the nearest town) and just hope they have one and will ask if they will lend / hire me two seats for that day. Not sure of my chances though (think they would lend me the seats, just not sure they will have the same car model).

I can't ask for an engineers report to say it has been converted from a seven seater to a five seater because it hasn't been converted - and if he gives me a report to say it has then it will be a lie - and if not a lie then I will have to pay to have the connectors taken out and the seatbelts removed which will cost even more on top on the report.

I want it done properly so I don't run into trouble every time it is NCT'd in future. But also need the car registered! Very frustrating!

Going to a different centre might be a good plan....

bazz26

The problem with going to a different VRT centre is that the car maybe flagged on their system now.

Sarah 1111

bazz26 wrote: »

The problem with going to a different VRT centre is that the car maybe flagged on their system now.

Unfortunately I think you could be right so I will ring them on Monday first thing and just ask what I should do? I will say that I can't get the engineers report as I have been asked to because it hasn't been altered - so what do they suggest? It is still a seven seater - just without the optional extra seats in it ('optional extra' being the key)... so I can't see that there should be a problem. However.....

Appealing to them for their expert advice will hopefully work better than just getting angry which I would have done if I had rung them on Thursday when I got back from the centre...

The next available appointment isn't until 16th November so I have a little bit of time - but my insurance on the UK plates runs out on the 23rd....and I am now over time as you are supposed to be registered within 30 days of bringing in the car which will be passed, so I will be fined as well...

Sarah 1111

colm_mcm wrote: »

If you went in with an Avensis Verso or an old Galaxy or something and the 2 rear seats were out, I can't see how they wouldn't let you register it.

I think you got the wrong person on the day.

This guy wouldn't register it. If it says 7 seater, it must have 7 seats according to him. Like I said, he told me totally straight faced that it would be unsafe to drive it with the seats taken out because the weight of the car would be wrong.... not sure how he views driving on your own in a car versus having 4 adult passengers and some luggage in the boot...

Marcusm

Sarah 1111 wrote: »

This guy wouldn't register it. If it says 7 seater, it must have 7 seats according to him. Like I said, he told me totally straight faced that it would be unsafe to drive it with the seats taken out because the weight of the car would be wrong.... not sure how he views driving on your own in a car versus having 4 adult passengers and some luggage in the boot...

Just being completely practical, do you or the Peugeot dealer know anyone else with the same car? See can you borrow a few seats for the period of the initial VRT inspection. In my experience, it is performed by the receptionist at the centres, unlike the actual NCT inspections.

Sarah 1111

Just an update - Couldn't find anyone I knew with the exact same car in time - VRT absolutely refuse to budge even though I have a letter from Peugeot head offices to say that the cars were all sold in both the UK and Ireland with only five seats but with the fittings for an additional two seats if required and to allow for moving the seats around in the car to allow for carrying awkward shapes. I am not disputing the tax at all and the car is exactly as it came from the manufacturer.

After ringing countless breakers yards I eventually found one with the correct two seats for sale which are being delivered tomorrow. It has cost me but cheaper than alternatives and at least now I won't have a problem with any future NCT as I don't trust them at all not to do the same to me then. Got to find somewhere to store the two spare seats now....

colm_mcm

You'll have no trouble selling them on.