Developing the fast charger network in Ireland

BoatMad

The Ievoa is attending the next session of the LEV taskforce stakeholder day and yours truely will be preeent.

This half day session is to consider viewpoints on the next stage of FCP development, given that money is being made available by DCCAE to assist their deployment.

The Ievoa position has been to concentrate on developing fast charger parks ( multiple units ) along all major transport arteries as a priority

I would be interested in posters views on the future makeup of the fcp network in Ireland

Vronsky

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/03/ford-bmw-vw-daimler-building-electric-charging-network-twice-the-power-of-teslas.html

Is there really any need when the manufacturers are finally getting the finger out regarding charging?

BoatMad

Vronsky wrote: »

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/03/ford-bmw-vw-daimler-building-electric-charging-network-twice-the-power-of-teslas.html

Is there really any need when the manufacturers are finally getting the finger out regarding charging?

In Ireland yes , demographics and spatial distribution suggests that fast charging will be uneconomic for some time.

cros13

Vronsky wrote: »

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/03/ford-bmw-vw-daimler-building-electric-charging-network-twice-the-power-of-teslas.html

Is there really any need when the manufacturers are finally getting the finger out regarding charging?

Yes, those plans do not include any sites in Ireland.

FastNed is the only foreign network with aspirational expansion plans including Ireland and even then they only aspire to three sites in the next 5 years (and they are much more likely to spend their money increasing the density of their continental network).



There is no commercially viable case for a rapid charging network here until we have at least ~100,000 EVs on the road (around 50 times the current EV fleet).
Norway is just about getting to that point now and they have circa 50% of their monthly vehicle sales PHEV and EV. We're still below 2% on an annual basis.

Water John

See in The Irish Examiner that, the four car makers, BMW, Ford, VW and MB, are rolling out a 350kw European Network on Motorways.
Coming to Ireland in 2019.
Here's a link to it elsewhere.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/3/16603616/bmw-daimler-ford-vw-electric-charging-europe

Orebro

Any idea on what their plans are for charging to use the facilities? Presume it'll be done in conjunction with / run by Ecars? It has to concentrate on having multiple chargers together at various locations off the motorways anyway - I'd be much more inclined to travel long distances in my Leaf if I knew there were going to be lots of chargers in the one location dotted around the place.

BoatMad

Orebro wrote: »

Any idea on what their plans are for charging to use the facilities? Presume it'll be done in conjunction with / run by Ecars? It has to concentrate on having multiple chargers together at various locations off the motorways anyway - I'd be much more inclined to travel long distances in my Leaf if I knew there were going to be lots of chargers in the one location dotted around the place.

we dont know any of the detail as yet, we dont know if this funding is going to ECars ( I hope not ) or is an independent setup under TfI etc

Forget 45 Kw chargers, no one will want to buy an EV if charge times are 1hr 30 mins to 80% that isn't exactly fast.

100+ kw chargers are really the only sensible solution.

People laugh when I tell them it can take 40 mins to get my leaf 24 Kwh to 80% if the battery is cold. Imagine what they would say if I told them 1 Hr 30 Mins ?

45 Kw was 2011 fast charger tech, today they need to be considered slow chargers.

TBi

Deleted User wrote: »

Forget 45 Kw chargers, no one will want to buy an EV if charge times are 1hr 30 mins to 80% that isn't exactly fast.

I'd be happier with more 45kw chargers than less 100kw ones. You only need 100kw ones on the motorway. 20 minutes at a 45kw charger will give at least 100km on new EV's. Who'd really need to stay longer if they are doing most of their charging at home?

Water John

It will be either slow charging at home for anyone who can and fast charging, as quickly as possible, is all other situations. Nothing else makes sense to me, esp considering human nature.

TBi

Water John wrote: »

esp considering human nature.

This is why I’d prefer 2x 45kw vs 1x 100kw at each stop.

Lads, this infrastructure isn't to benefit us enthusiasts and early adopters who will wait at 45 Kw chargers due to lack of choice, I guarantee the majority of the motoring public in Ireland will not.

Yes most charging will take place at home but the average Joe doesn't get this and so when asked how long does a fast charge take when they hear 30-40 mins they loose interest straight away. Now imagine telling them an 80% charge will take 1hr 30 mins ? no chance !

People take longer trips and 300 Kms range would be great but even this range will mean fast charging on longer trips and yes on the motorway charging as fast as possible is key then all other areas can have 45 Kw.

liamog

Thanks BoatMad for reaching out to us.

Any expansion to the current strategic network should focus on addressing current issues whilst ensuring that any new equipment is suitable for future use. I see today's issue as Single Point of Failure and Lack of CCS in the North West.

I believe it's important that any investment is not wasted on installing more 50kW chargers.
These may be adequate for 2016 Models, but are already under spec for the Ioniq.
I would like to see a commitment to install multi-dc capable 150kW Rapid Chargers with dynamic dc splitting enabled.
www.evtec.ch/files/8915/0840/1653/factsheet_2_espressocharge_1000_en_1-2.pdf

If all the current DC rapids on inter-urban routes had one of these installed alongside, we'd go from the current 1DC +1AC43 charging at a time, to 3DC+2AC43+1AC22.
For the sites with the older non-ccs models, we'd still only have one CCS point, but at least that's an improvement.

Load sharing is fine however cap an EV to 45-75 Kw and you're back to the problem of slow charging and inefficient use of a 150 Kw charger.

It's crucial that the infrastructure is right the first time around, or 2nd but anyway it's still early days and it needs to be a good system for people to adopt. No one would sit pumping petrol for 30 mins to 1hr 30 mins and the majority of people will not wait that long for an ev to charge and to think otherwise would be foolish.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

Load sharing is fine however cap an EV to 45-75 Kw and you're back to the problem of slow charging and inefficient use of a 150 Kw charger.

The whole idea of load sharing is that Car A arrives and takes the max possible it can handle.
Load splitting prevents capping, if your car is capable of 150Kw then it will take the full capacity. When the taper starts Car B can start taking the left overs. Ramping up as Car A ramps down.

At this moment we don't have 150Kw cars so in reality an Ionic and Leaf charging at the same time would max out at 120Kw. Even 100Kw CCS cars would'nt limit the Chademo connection.

If they don't use the load splitting option we'd be back to current joke of waiting for a Leaf charging to 100% who's sipping power at 3kW blocking the other DC ports.

Oh sure, that's fine in theory provided they don't split it 3 or 4 ways and cripple everyone at a low SOC which is what they could do thinking to themselves " oh well, 4 leaf 24 Kwh charging will pull 120 Kw so that's ok then"

And that's ok until faster charging cars come onto the market.

liamog

If they try and do that its not dynamic load splitting . That's just a 4 head charger.

Dardania

Suggest considering 3 types of EV drivers:

- people on long range motorway drives

- people in medium density towns / suburbs who mightn’t have driveways or want to try using an EV for a while before buying / committing to a home charger

- tourist driving destinations like the Wild Atlantic Way to encourage eco tourism


With the motorway chargers, if they were possible to located in such a way that medium density towns were nearby, there could be a great usage of resources by allowing locals access as well as long distance drivers

Dardania

Dardania wrote: »

Suggest considering 3 types of EV drivers:

- people on long range motorway drives

- people in medium density towns / suburbs who mightn’t have driveways or want to try using an EV for a while before buying / committing to a home charger

- tourist driving destinations like the Wild Atlantic Way to encourage eco tourism


With the motorway chargers, if they were possible to located in such a way that medium density towns were nearby, there could be a great usage of resources by allowing locals access as well as long distance drivers

See the thing is that as I witnessed regularly in Naas, locals abuse the free network which is why I would like to see charging for usage brought in sooner than later.

Dardania

Deleted User wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Suggest considering 3 types of EV drivers:

- people on long range motorway drives

- people in medium density towns / suburbs who mightn’t have driveways or want to try using an EV for a while before buying / committing to a home charger

- tourist driving destinations like the Wild Atlantic Way to encourage eco tourism


With the motorway chargers, if they were possible to located in such a way that medium density towns were nearby, there could be a great usage of resources by allowing locals access as well as long distance drivers

See the thing is that as I witnessed regularly in Naas, locals abuse the free network which is why I would like to see charging for usage brought in sooner than later.

Absolutely agree that it should be paid for- people don’t value things that are free

bk

Dardania wrote: »

- tourist driving destinations like the Wild Atlantic Way to encourage eco tourism

This, I think it would be important not to completely forget routes like the Wild Atlantic Way and the other odd rural tourist destinations.

It is a disgrace that their is no charger in Glendalough. Folks from up North showing us up with multiple chargers in Newcastle at the foot of the Mournes and at the Marble Arch Caves near the new Cuilcagh way walk.

liamog's idea of split chargers also sounds like a very good idea.

I also agree that in general charger parks on the main motorways are probably the most important.

Water John

One can pitch at any time, 10,15 or 20 years time when most transport will be EV. That's the vision one uses the structure the charging network.

So oddly it won't be that different from the present oil system. The main diff being one can charge at home overnight. So the price at the 'filling station' cannot be totally out of sync with that, base cost.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

Thanks BoatMad for reaching out to us.

Any expansion to the current strategic network should focus on addressing current issues whilst ensuring that any new equipment is suitable for future use. I see today's issue as Single Point of Failure and Lack of CCS in the North West.

I believe it's important that any investment is not wasted on installing more 50kW chargers.
These may be adequate for 2016 Models, but are already under spec for the Ioniq.
I would like to see a commitment to install multi-dc capable 150kW Rapid Chargers with dynamic dc splitting enabled.
www.evtec.ch/files/8915/0840/1653/factsheet_2_espressocharge_1000_en_1-2.pdf

If all the current DC rapids on inter-urban routes had one of these installed alongside, we'd go from the current 1DC +1AC43 charging at a time, to 3DC+2AC43+1AC22.
For the sites with the older non-ccs models, we'd still only have one CCS point, but at least that's an improvement.

Thanks , very interesting

BoatMad

Dardania wrote: »

Suggest considering 3 types of EV drivers:

- people on long range motorway drives

- people in medium density towns / suburbs who mightn’t have driveways or want to try using an EV for a while before buying / committing to a home charger

- tourist driving destinations like the Wild Atlantic Way to encourage eco tourism


With the motorway chargers, if they were possible to located in such a way that medium density towns were nearby, there could be a great usage of resources by allowing locals access as well as long distance drivers

I dont think , you can mix up the two.

Firstly people on interurban journeys do not want go deviate into towns simply to charge

Secondly in my opinion public charging cannot be a substitute for home charging and where home charging isnt possible we need to look at what options are available , but I dont believe the FCP network can address that

Driving the altantic way , is really going to be covered by local charging ( fast slow, whatever ) , provided by either destination chargers of small facilities in local garages , where it makes commercial sense

In time , the range of EVs will be such that this wont be a general problem , so I dont think its worth focussing too much on that area

The current issue is enabling people to complete interurban driving in simple and timely fashion because the current network is not fit for that purpose ( for various reasons )

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

One can pitch at any time, 10,15 or 20 years time when most transport will be EV. That's the vision one uses the structure the charging network.

So oddly it won't be that different from the present oil system. The main diff being one can charge at home overnight. So the price at the 'filling station' cannot be totally out of sync with that, base cost.

I have argued the opposite to the LEV taskforce

I have argued that too much future gazing is misleading. this technology is moving too fast to predict what will be need in 5 years . dont mind 10 or 20.

we dont know the impact of wide scale home charging
(a) can we sustain it
(b) will the Grid handle it
(c) will we see differential pricing on home electricity

we dont know the penetration and time scale for the technology
(a) how will range affect user charging decisions
(b) the speed and scale of higher fast charger rates
(c) the ramp up of EV usage

we dont know the economics of the process
(a) will domestic energy remain cheap for EV charging
(b) what will be the retail price of fast charging
(c) the effect of competition
(d) micro generation
(e) is fast charging going to be economic, is there a real business model



hence my own view is

(a) Focus initially on interurban routes and journeys
(b) multiple chargers per site
(c) easy access , pay and go model , no subscriptions
(d) modular chargers that can be upgraded as tech changes and car accommodate increase charge rates

None of this precludes other types off installations including fast chargers in filing stations , installed by the filling station operator, or supermarket car parks etc , but these chargers are purely commercial ( or intend to be ) and play no part in a strategic network

Water John

Are you proposing, as per your title of it 'strategic infrastructure', that the core system you are in favour of is similar to the ESB National Grid, a publicly owned utility?

With hints of the Leaf supporting faster charging on DC I came across this, 150 Kw chargers and looks like Nissan dealers might get these in 2018.

So does Leaf II have ChaDeMo II spec ?

Anyway, perhaps ESB can start installing these ? 45 Kw chargers in my opinion would be a big waste.

https://insideevs.com/new-leaf-150-kw-dc-fast-charging-via-dbt/