Teacher Shortage?

userb

I am just wondering regarding this teacher shortage that has been reported of late;
1) How real is this in the post-primary sector?
2) Why is this, is it because there aren’t enough qualifying in certain subjects?
3) What are the subjects they are projecting shortages in? All? Or is it European Languages, Irish, Home Economics as one publication suggested.
4) How are they in the STEM subjects- there was a drive for Maths teachers, what about English?

mengele

userb wrote: »

I am just wondering regarding this teacher shortage that has been reported of late;
1) How real is this in the post-primary sector?
2) Why is this, is it because there aren’t enough qualifying in certain subjects?
3) What are the subjects they are projecting shortages in? All? Or is it European Languages, Irish, Home Economics as one publication suggested.
4) How are they in the STEM subjects- there was a drive for Maths teachers, what about English?

I often wonder is there a shortage at this time of the year because the hours on offer are so poor. For example what good is a maternity leave which is 8 hours? You would be better off on the dole. Theres a lot of jobs up which are for less than 11 hours. Then when nobody applies for these, principals think there is a shortage. These hours are bad enough on an rpt contract never mind just for sub work.

userb

This is never included in the debate when it comes to post-primary about 2-3 hours be advertised in subjects- people don't go to college to train for full time work, to work part-time hours indefinitely

MouseTail

My guess is couple of contributing factors, graduates going abroad to get some cash together/adventure and a multitude of career opportunities for Home Ec/language/STEM graduates outside teaching.

userb

Have they been explicit about what areas they are short in or is it a general

SligoBrewer

userb wrote: »

I am just wondering regarding this teacher shortage that has been reported of late;
1) How real is this in the post-primary sector?
2) Why is this, is it because there aren’t enough qualifying in certain subjects?
3) What are the subjects they are projecting shortages in? All? Or is it European Languages, Irish, Home Economics as one publication suggested.
4) How are they in the STEM subjects- there was a drive for Maths teachers, what about English?

1) Very, especially in Dublin. Starting to creep in all over country wide though.
2) There's a lack of teachers in all subjects because of people leaving for better paid contracts abroad.
3) All, but it is very much felt in all subjects apart from English, History, Geography and Business. Everything else is in very short supply.
4) In dire straits. No graduates from any of the 4 year non-teaching courses is going to do the masters because it is 2 years, too expensive and not paid enough compared to what people can earn in the private sector.

userb

How did they not know this was going to happen?

evolving_doors

userb wrote: »

I am just wondering regarding this teacher shortage that has been reported of late;
1) How real is this in the post-primary sector?

Real enough. I'd guess most schools are just ticking over but if certain subjects go out on leave then it's crunch time.

userb wrote: »

2) Why is this, is it because there aren’t enough qualifying in certain subjects?

Yes.
Or else qualifying and saying adios to Ireland.
International schools, UAE, New Zealand, 'hours'!!!... it's called a full time job, with very juicy perks.

userb wrote: »

3) What are the subjects they are projecting shortages in? All? Or is it European Languages, Irish, Home Economics as one publication suggested.

The ones you suggested.

userb wrote: »

4) How are they in the STEM subjects- there was a drive for Maths teachers, what about English?

Stem ain't too bad.. usually most teachers do 2 subjects (and can be thrown in to maths along with the business teachers if needs must (no offence)). Physics is rare enough although the dept. seem happy to let it die when teachers retire (going by previous anecdotes on here). Classes are usually small from what I know anyway.. which is a pity cos its a very doable subject.
Just bump up the chemistry and biology classes.

English.... no shortage.
Definitely no shortage.

The teaching council have issued a report recently and it was interesting enough. An often unnoticed problem is the scoring system to gain entry. They identified cases where stem candidates were turned down as other more common subjects scored higher to gain a place.

Anyhow.. things are going to get worse as the population is increasing significantly over the next few years. Peaking at 2025 and then a decline is envisaged. And I doubt that'll be a sharp decline either.

Unless another recession starts again and people emigrate. I think the stock markets are due a correction so it could impact on the American companies, and all that comes with it. Although there's probably numerous predictions of a correction every year.

userb

Well surely then the minister et al should look at the post-primary sector directly and realise that this is not just simply a case of supply and demand. Clean up the mess that has been going on for years with a few hours advertised- I don't know how they would do this but it is absurd.

The Hdip allowed for trainee teachers to plug the holes for years and this was never ever addressed or looked at.

If they really want to do education justice, then they will have to look properly at this. Ridiculous

evolving_doors

userb wrote: »

Well surely then the minister et al should look at the post-primary sector directly and realise that this is not just simply a case of supply and demand. Clean up the mess that has been going on for years with a few hours advertised- I don't know how they would do this but it is absurd.

The Hdip allowed for trainee teachers to plug the holes for years and this was never ever addressed or looked at.

If they really want to do education justice, then they will have to look properly at this. Ridiculous

They're looking into it at the moment

userb

Lol the abyss!

doc_17

There is a crisis and the causes of it are so blindingly obvious. The decimation of the terms and conditions of employment since 2009. Pension levy, an extra 4 weeks unpaid work per year, pay cuts, increasingly aggressive attitude from the Department/Inspectorate/Teaching Council towards teachers, the changes to pension entitlements (for both post 2004 and 2011 entrants) and the relatively low pay that teachers get after studying for 6 years.

Remember that it is often said teachers are drawn from the top quartile of LC students. So gifted, hardworking people will be clued in and follow a career path that rewards them more than Teaching currently does.

feardeas

Definitely a shortage. Irish is a huge problem. However maybe there are just not that many studying it in the universities.

The two year PME is ridiculous. It is also crazily expensive. I mean over a third of starting salary assuming one gets full hours. That is just crazy and how some person either in TC or the Department couldn't see that is amazing.

People are emigrating rather than hanging around so it becomes impossible to get teachers for maternity or sick leave.

Id imagine that if it's a nightmare for principals. Bruton has acknowledged the issue, the only silver lining is that it might help grease the wheels of pay scale equality like with the nurses.

Postgrad10

And when people get a few hours (mostly not in their subjects), they are expected to move across the country and wait up to three months to get paid. So yes, they go abroad with the promise of full time work , a contract, paid accomodation, and bonuses for staying on.

r93kaey5p2izun

I have to laugh at my ETB being in desperate dire straits for teachers now. Crisis talks being held, teachers being urged to ask anyone we know who is qualified to phone head office for work, trips, matches and CPD cancelled left right and centre due to lack of cover. We have several schools with exam classes with no teacher, including my own. There has been a mass exodus of CID teachers from our schools and recruitment drives have failed. And the ETB is just baffled.

The same ETB who right up until this summer has been deliberately avoiding CID by changing subject combinations in the second year ads so the teacher from year 1 can't reapply. The same ETB who took on average 8-10 years to give teachers full time CID despite the hours always being there. The same ETB that doesn't pay new teachers or those starting a new contract until late October. The same ETB that has persisted in paying the unqualified rate to subs if the majority of their timetable is outside their subject area - and deliberately bulks it up with CSPE and SPHE to ensure that's the case. The same ETB that doesn't issue contracts until this week (last minute before the early Nov deadline for contracts paying for holidays) and even now is putting in nasty surprises that were never mentioned before. The same ETB whose application form takes an hour to complete and whose recruitment website is so dodgy that it regularly loses saved applications so people just give up. The same ETB that even subtracts parts of classes from subs timesheets if for example a class was delayed coming back from an assembly.

And they just don't know why they can't get teachers.

ethical

...BUT remember 87 yr old Tony is overworked!!!!

mirrorwall14

Ansley Substantial Rafter wrote: »

I have to laugh at my ETB being in desperate dire straits for teachers now. Crisis talks being held, teachers being urged to ask anyone we know who is qualified to phone head office for work, trips, matches and CPD cancelled left right and centre due to lack of cover. We have several schools with exam classes with no teacher, including my own. There has been a mass exodus of CID teachers from our schools and recruitment drives have failed. And the ETB is just baffled.

The same ETB who right up until this summer has been deliberately avoiding CID by changing subject combinations in the second year ads so the teacher from year 1 can't reapply. The same ETB who took on average 8-10 years to give teachers full time CID despite the hours always being there. The same ETB that doesn't pay new teachers or those starting a new contract until late October. The same ETB that has persisted in paying the unqualified rate to subs if the majority of their timetable is outside their subject area - and deliberately bulks it up with CSPE and SPHE to ensure that's the case. The same ETB that doesn't issue contracts until this week (last minute before the early Nov deadline for contracts paying for holidays) and even now is putting in nasty surprises that were never mentioned before. The same ETB whose application form takes an hour to complete and whose recruitment website is so dodgy that it regularly loses saved applications so people just give up. The same ETB that even subtracts parts of classes from subs timesheets if for example a class was delayed coming back from an assembly.

And they just don't know why they can't get teachers.

My school didn't hold official interviews until last week. The new teachers have barely been paid yet. Its an absolute disgrace.

I think the crisis is actually getting worse and is much much worse than just the new entrants and recently qualified.

I'd love to know the figures on retention. I know of mass exodus of people from 50-65 with a lot of the excellent and experienced teachers bailing out. Schools feeling it in lack of experienced year heads etc.

I don't know any teacher my age 30-40 who is not making plans for the future, most of us looking into transferring from the classroom into a different career or upskilling to get out of the classroom. One of my friends has left already. She says she loved teaching but she doesn't miss it. Teachers have been left with no illusions as to the attitude the department, the minister and the public have to teaching. I will get out when I feel I need to and I'm laying the ground work now as will many many others which will cause even more problems.

This has been the toughest year so far I've found. Endless committees, the hours of planning are getting longer and longer. We are picking up the pieces of wasted croke park hours that couldn't be productive and of years of no promotions with no B posts and extremely limited A posts. No career progression available. Massive discontent and issues when the one post in 3/4 years gets advertised. The goodwill is gone. Everyone is grumpy. The amount of paperwork, policies and new curriculums has just reached a point where it seems never ending now. This year its one thing, next year its something else. All of it seems like a sticking plaster on a tide of work that is simply not helpful to actually teaching the students and is rapidly burning teachers out.

userb

I just don't know some of these things are so glaringly obvious why wouldn't the government be all over it to reform it and solve the problem the reason is simple people just won't work with the way the conditions are;

evolving_doors

You have to wonder if the spin will ever stop
Radio 1 news this morning...

"... retired teachers are returning to work DUE TO CAREER BREAKS AND MATERNITY LEAVES".
Talk about an elephant in the room why dontcha!

Yet again it's the pesky teachers fault!

evolving_doors

userb wrote: »

I just don't know some of these things are so glaringly obvious why wouldn't the government be all over it to reform it and solve the problem the reason is simple people just won't work with the way the conditions are;

In fairness the permanent government (civil servants etc) have to think in terms of decades so the next 15 years is just a small blip when it comes to planning for pensions 40 years down the line.
So if they hire a tonne of teachers full time to overcome the current shortage then when the population declines there'll be an overquota/redeployment problem.
Also thinking about the subjects needing replacement ... Irish, Home ec and languages 'some' might be of the opinion that they don't grab the public's attention as much as say science, business or maths shortages might.

userb

There is something there in the general psyche where it will only and ever be the teacher's fault and this will drive the profession in the wrong direction ultimately---"something rotten in the state of denmark..."

Mardy Bum

Any sign of these B/AP2 posts?

doc_17

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Any sign of these B/AP2 posts?

Haven’t heard a peep.

clunked

doc_17 wrote: »

Haven’t heard a peep.

Still being discussed I believe

evolving_doors

Would these AP2 posts reduce your teaching timetable?
What would the pay be like 3-4k ?

userb

What time of job are we talking with these like a Year Head role?

Kristopherus

evolving_doors wrote: »

You have to wonder if the spin will ever stop
Radio 1 news this morning...

"... retired teachers are returning to work DUE TO CAREER BREAKS AND MATERNITY LEAVES".
Talk about an elephant in the room why dontcha!

Yet again it's the pesky teachers fault!

I thought that nonesense was ended a year or two ago? Or was that just with the N.Ts?

doc_17

The new AP 2 will be similar to the old B post in terms of remuneration and there won’t be any time off I’d imagine. The reason it’s bane has changed is to allow management to assign more duties typically associated with and A post to the new AP 2 post. So you could be a year head.

Delphinium

Two retired teachers taking Home economics in my school to cover for ill teacher. Both doing great work but neither wants to be there but have a loyalty to the school. Not a single reply to ad for three months duration for a sub. Many Home ec. teachers who changed school this year have not been replaced as no one available.

doc_17

I’d imagine subjects have dropped off timetables over the past few years due to no chemistry/physics etc teachers.

evolving_doors

+ when a school looks at candidates for an AP1 post will a teacher whos subject id in short supply be automatically put at a disadvantage.

Corkgirl18

userb wrote: »

4) How are they in the STEM subjects- there was a drive for Maths teachers, what about English?

Physics teachers are low on the ground alright. Very small numbers qualifying in it each year which is not surprising since you can earn a lot more in another field if you've an interest in physics.
Chemistry and biology seem to be doing OK at the moment but I can definitely see a shortage in the next few years.

The PME is going to have a serious effect on numbers qualifying.
It is also incredibly difficult to secure full time work. I was on part time hours for my first year and was earning about €250 per week. Its very difficult to live on that.

userb

Yes agreed with Physics teaching, I think colleges themselves should ultimately look at combining the teaching degree and the BA Arts;

I agree with this part-time work thing in the post-primary this has to be looked at, I just don't know how really they could remedy that but who wants to apply for those jobs and be working them indefinitely it is ridiculous

NufcNavan

And now the Dept. of Education think the solution is to give player ratings on schools. It's like Croke Park deciding the best way to help the crisis in the intercounty game is to show up to a Leitrim game and rate them 'poor' on their website.

Postgrad10

Ooh look who's good and very good. It's like Bruton's naughty or nice list. Absolutely ridiculous.

Noveight

The 2 year PME is farcical and I don't see how it can last.

userb

I was outraged when I heard of this ratings carry on today- Is this definite?

byhookorbycrook

Ratings already occur in good/satisfactory etc on wse reports. I have no problem once there is a consistent standard among inspectors.I know of one school where they were told at feedback "standards should be higher in art" as they weren't a DEIS school (wft??) How can teachers know what standards an inspector is seeking- are all children meant to be "preforming" to some subjective pre conceived notion an individual inspector picks from the air?Or will we be so tied up in ticking boxes decided by someone in an office somewhere for every single child for every single curriculum objective that it will suck the remaining joy out of teaching and learning?

appleb

Hi. I am Deputy Principal in a special school in North County Dublin. We are looking for a teacher. Can guarantee full hour to at least Christmas but could go on all year. If anyone knows of someone, please PM me for further details!

TheDriver

Educationposts is prob your best bet

Seannew1

What is the minister's short-term solution on the lack of teachers apart from training up homemakers? Nothing seems to be occurring.

userb

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ratings already occur in good/satisfactory etc on wse reports. I have no problem once there is a consistent standard among inspectors.I know of one school where they were told at feedback "standards should be higher in art" as they weren't a DEIS school (wft??) How can teachers know what standards an inspector is seeking- are all children meant to be "preforming" to some subjective pre conceived notion an individual inspector picks from the air?Or will we be so tied up in ticking boxes decided by someone in an office somewhere for every single child for every single curriculum objective that it will suck the remaining joy out of teaching and learning?

But I worry about a consistent standard, I've heard and seen of one inspector singing from one hymn sheet and another from another hymn sheet...
Its going to be tied up into ticking boxes and this thing will become very clinical I'm all for effective teaching-strategies etc but this I fear will be overkill

Dickie10

im in year 2 of the PME, absolute joke ! two days a week a real filling up time course for 11500.
some lectures are interesting but everyone just wants to concentrate on teaching now and getting a good mark in the inspections. im full time farming only for that i wouldnt have a penny. to be honest i will be happy if i just get my money back out of teaching over the next few years. if i got my 12k back over a couple of years i would take it now, might just sub somewhere close and farm full time. had a BA in history and geography and said i would give teaching a go love the job in fairness but you wont make money at it.!

Starkystark

userb wrote: »

I agree with this part-time work thing in the post-primary this has to be looked at, I just don't know how really they could remedy that but who wants to apply for those jobs and be working them indefinitely it is ridiculous

+1 on this! I taught in England and when I described the employment issues to teachers over there - they were in complete shock and surprise at how someone may only get a contract for 4 hours a week and these may be "job-share hours", "secondment", etc. At least over there - your hours are your hours, full stop. This should be the case over here, if you're employed - you're employed on a full time contract.

They also couldn't grasp the idea that you could be employed to teach two (or more) subjects. Most comments regarding this were how much of a logistical nightmare it must be.

userb

Attention really needs to be drawn to this, we were discussing this at school, For example "3 hours of French" advertised. The reality is the ordinary person doesn't know about this and they just assume "oh grand for them: 3 months holidays... "

PowerToWait

userb wrote: »

Attention really needs to be drawn to this, we were discussing this at school, For example "3 hours of French" advertised. The reality is the ordinary person doesn't know about this and they just assume "oh grand for them: 3 months holidays... "

3 months holidays AND they only work 3 hours a week for their gold plated pensions.
This country needs a Maggie Thatcher. Put Michael O'Leary in charge. What about those in the private sector that took a 100% pay cut?

userb

LOL

Corkgirl18

PowerToWait wrote: »

3 months holidays AND they only work 3 hours a week for their gold plated pensions.
This country needs a Maggie Thatcher. Put Michael O'Leary in charge. What about those in the private sector that took a 100% pay cut?

Yep getting little hour contracts is really ideal. Great craic trying to survive on very little money and having zero job security.
If you've a spare 12K I'm sure the teacher training colleges would take you in.

userb

Yeah you have the three months off... to do what with? With what money?

Postgrad10

Three months of poverty in which the bills pile up and then another 5-6 weeks until you get paid if you get the 2nd year of the CID or another equally rubbish contract(if you are that lucky!).

userb

Yeap