Catholic & Protestant Church interiors

bobbyss

Excuse my ignorance in this but if anyone can clarify. Catholicism was the main Christian religion in pre reformation England and therefore churches built at this time would have been Catholic churches. What are the main features of a Catholic church in terms of the buildings themselves? What happened all of these churches after the reformation?

I usually associate a protestant church with a pulpit accessed through winding spiral steps. The absence of statues? Do protestant churches have stained glass windows depicting what?

For example, Canterbury Cathedral would have been a Catholic cathedral pre reformation but now is a protestant cathedral.

What changes in its interior would have been made to reflect this?

Manach

The transition of a church from Catholic to Protestant depended on the context on the ground and how much of a Purtian influence was present. This would be from Henry VIIIs time to that of William of Orange, when religious fever died down. In many cases it was a gradual transition with very little changes in the architecture, except to remove any overt Catholic presense. In some cases, it was a Year-Zero style change, with coloured windows smashed,statues overturned and cyrpts emptied. To confuse things, the Anglican Church went through a Gothic phase around the time of the Regency and into Victorian time. The upshot was that many churches were retrofitted with features that were deemed by detractors as "Papist".
A good book on how to read the meanings and style of a church would be "How to read Churches" by Robert McNamara.

bobbyss

Manach wrote:

The transition of a church from Catholic to Protestant depended on the context on the ground and how much of a Purtian influence was present. This would be from Henry VIIIs time to that of William of Orange, when religious fever died down. In many cases it was a gradual transition with very little changes in the architecture, except to remove any overt Catholic presense. In some cases, it was a Year-Zero style change, with coloured windows smashed,statues overturned and cyrpts emptied. To confuse things, the Anglican Church went through a Gothic phase around the time of the Regency and into Victorian time. The upshot was that many churches were retrofitted with features that were deemed by detractors as "Papist". A good book on how to read the meanings and style of a church would be "How to read Churches" by Robert McNamara.

Thanks for that and the recommendation. I often wonder while looking at a church if it's possible to say whether its a Catholic or protestant one. Don't protestant churches have stained glass windows?

Full Marx

If the church is of historical significance and you are charged to go in you can sure its not a (current) Catholic one.

pedroeibar1

bobbyss wrote: »

I often wonder while looking at a church if it's possible to say whether its a Catholic or protestant one.

Yes. Rule of thumb = generally Protestant churches do not have a crucifix on the spire.

Del.Monte

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks for that and the recommendation. I often wonder while looking at a church if it's possible to say whether its a Catholic or protestant one. Don't protestant churches have stained glass windows?

They have stained glass windows. a lack of (scary) statues and lots of plaques commemorating war dead. If it looks very old chances are that it's a Protestant church - and cathedrals (Christ Church, St.Patrick's etc.) were the spoils of the Reformation. Thankfully in the 20th/21st centuries the Protestant community (excluding NI) generally hasn't had the need or the money to build any architectural monstrosities.

Ipso

Aren't Presbyterian churches supposed to be very bare, I w heard it's down to the first and second commandment (graven images etc).

L1011

European protestant churches that aren't Anglican are often very plain, US and African ones the exact opposite. You'll find some of the gaudiest things going in COI premises at times.

Jellybaby1

To confuse matters more, I have been in CoI churches which certainly have icons displayed. This is probably due to the fact that the leadership in the parish lean towards a more Catholic faith than Protestant, but that could be argued I guess. Its been discussed at length elsewhere here viz., Anglican Catholics / Catholic Anglicans. Hard to distinguish the difference in some churches. On the plus side, there is always a notice board at the entrances to churches which clearly states the religion of said church, so really its not necessary to over work the grey cells.

tabbey

In this country we tend to divide christian religion into Catholic v. non catholic.

Traditionally the Anglican congregation saw itself as catholic, the word just means universal or worldwide.
For this reason we should say Roman Catholic or Anglo Catholic.

Unfortunately the RC population take offence at being labelled RC, while the Anglican people have been conditioned by their neighbours into accepting the non catholic category thrust upon them.

If we were all a bit more christian, we would accept our neighbours self identity, but unfortunately historical prejudices survive just below the surface in many of us.

Another fact that most Irish do not appreciate, is that the Anglican churches can be High Church or Low Church. I was once at a High Church Mass in London, as a (Roman) catholic, I thought it was very similar to RC.

tabbey

Ipso wrote: »

Aren't Presbyterian churches supposed to be very bare, I w heard it's down to the first and second commandment (graven images etc).

The DLR lexicon library has been described as resembling a Presbyterian cathedral.

Odhinn

bobbyss wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance in this but if anyone can clarify. Catholicism was the main Christian religion in pre reformation England and therefore churches built at this time would have been Catholic churches. What are the main features of a Catholic church in terms of the buildings themselves? What happened all of these churches after the reformation?

I usually associate a protestant church with a pulpit accessed through winding spiral steps. The absence of statues? Do protestant churches have stained glass windows depicting what?

For example, Canterbury Cathedral would have been a Catholic cathedral pre reformation but now is a protestant cathedral.

What changes in its interior would have been made to reflect this?

Wall paintings painted over, statues and (often) shrines and tombs destroyed or removed.

It has to be said that the proliferation of statues, art and the rest isn't some canon of faith. Modern catholic churches I've been in are quite bare in comparison to older ones.

bobbyss

Odhinn wrote:

Wall paintings painted over, statues and (often) shrines and tombs destroyed or removed.

Why would tombs be destroyed/ removed?

splinter65

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks for that and the recommendation. I often wonder while looking at a church if it's possible to say whether its a Catholic or protestant one. Don't protestant churches have stained glass windows?

All Catholic Churches have Stations of the Cross in some form on the walls.
Protestant churches don’t do that.

the_pen_turner

stations of the cross in catholic churches
a lot more gold and marble in catholic churches
incense burners in RC
more integrated kneelers in RC

the_pen_turner

L1011 wrote: »

European protestant churches that aren't Anglican are often very plain, US and African ones the exact opposite. You'll find some of the gaudiest things going in COI premises at times.

in what way. iv always thought it the other way around

looksee

While unusual, it is perfectly possible for churches of the Anglican communion to have Stations of the Cross. 'High' Anglican churches also have incense and often quite elaborate decorations. As has been pointed out, 'low' Anglican churches can be as plain as a Methodist or Baptist chapel.

Odhinn

bobbyss wrote: »

Why would tombs be destroyed/ removed?

Iconoclasm. Anything along the lines of a shrine were targeted, and that included well decorated tombs in churches, afaik.

Avatar MIA

Ah, I thought all COI (I'm assuming all COI = Anglican) were classed as High Church.

looksee

The Church of England and the Church of Ireland - and a large number of others around the world - are separate organisations but all of the Anglican Communion. High church refers to those Anglican churches that look and act almost like Roman Catholic churches, some of them call their services Mass. The only significant difference (afaik) is transubstantiation. At the other end of the scale are Anglican churches which are very plain and modest in appearance, and the services are much less complex while still using the same prayer book and doctrine.

Mancomb Seepgood

High church parishes are quite rare in the Church of Ireland.An example of one would be St.Bartholomews in Dublin.Its far more common in the Episcopal Church in America,and in the Church of England,which actually has an organisation of clergy called the Society of Catholic Priests (Anglo-Catholic churches would be at the high end of the High church,with incense and statues).

Peregrinus

The Church of Ireland is generally regarded as being on the lowish end of the spectrum, but with some spots that are higher (like St. Bartholemew's). But it's also generally regarded as a church that doesn't get steamed up about this. In some of the other churches in the Anglican communion, the low and high camps have at time been dismissive of, or hostile to, one another, or at any rate there has been tension and conflict along the low/high split. This happens very little, if at all, in the C of I. The C of I is therefore a very broad church; it can comfortably accommodate both low and high Anglicans without experiencing stresses as a result of that.

bobbyss

Odhinn wrote:

Iconoclasm. Anything along the lines of a shrine were targeted, and that included well decorated tombs in churches, afaik.

Yes I thought something along those lines yet protestant places of worship have tombs e.g. Westminster Abbey is replete with same.

looksee

One place where I lived in England - this was 50 years ago - had two CofE churches for some obscure historical reason. On was considered high - the congregation addressed the Vicar as 'Father' - and the other was low.

road_high

the_pen_turner wrote: »

in what way. iv always thought it the other way around

Me too. COI chuches I've been in tend to be bare bones, no sense affairs. RC churches can be gawdy, big and ostentatious by comparison.

bobbyss

Del.Monte wrote:

They have stained glass windows. a lack of (scary) statues and lots of plaques commemorating war dead. If it looks very old chances are that it's a Protestant church - and cathedrals (Christ Church, St.Patrick's etc.) were the spoils of the Reformation. Thankfully in the 20th/21st centuries the Protestant community (excluding NI) generally hasn't had the need or the money to build any architectural monstrosities.

Yes I have noticed plaques commemorating war dead but what explains this? Why? More Irish RCs died in WW1 than protestants I would imagine yet no Catholic church has these plaques. Is there some connection between the military and the protestant church. Many officers for sure would have been COI for sure but I am sure more than officers are commemorated.

the_pen_turner

Think a lot if that is because the ones being remembered are the sons of the estate owners. As a result they had the money and "importance" to put up a monument.
Also loosing 2 or 3 very influential members of a congregation of 100 is a lot

Del.Monte

bobbyss wrote: »

Yes I have noticed plaques commemorating war dead but what explains this? Why? More Irish RCs died in WW1 than protestants I would imagine yet no Catholic church has these plaques. Is there some connection between the military and the protestant church. Many officers for sure would have been COI for sure but I am sure more than officers are commemorated.

I think that you will find the majority of plaques commemorate officers - presumably their families were able to afford to have them erected. There was no connection between the CoI and the military, but especially in WW.I. most of the Anglican community would have identified more closely with Britain and the King rather than with Ireland.

tabbey

bobbyss wrote: »

Yes I have noticed plaques commemorating war dead but what explains this? Why? More Irish RCs died in WW1 than protestants I would imagine yet no Catholic church has these plaques. Is there some connection between the military and the protestant church. Many officers for sure would have been COI for sure but I am sure more than officers are commemorated.

It is only RC churches in Ireland which fail to honour their war dead. This is because of the anti-British sentiment which haunted Ireland from 1918 onwards.

French and Belgians do not have that problem so rightly commemorate their dead in catholic churches.

bobbyss

Del.Monte wrote:

I think that you will find the majority of plaques commemorate officers - presumably their families were able to afford to have them erected. There was no connection between the CoI and the military, but especially in WW.I. most of the Anglican community would have identified more closely with Britain and the King rather than with Ireland.

Yes. I am thinking of St Nicholas' coi in Galway where there are many plaques. Next time I am there I must check them out. I recall being in a Catholic church neat Letterfrack and looking at a small wooden plaque (I think it was) to a local parishioner who died in 9/11. I was struck with how ornate the COI plaques were in St Nick's. Different worlds.

tabbey

the_pen_turner wrote: »

incense burners in RC
more integrated kneelers in RC

Anglican High Church have incense also, that is why they are known as the "bells and smells"branch.

Kneelers in churches have developed over time. When RC churches were developed in Ireland, largely from about 1790, money was scarce. Chapels would have had a rough floor at first, then depending on funding, tiled or timber floors, followed by seating. The padding on kneelers only date from the 1960s.

Lots of Anglican churches have kneelers, some with luxurious cushions. I suppose these are not integrated.

Mancomb Seepgood

tabbey wrote: »

It is only RC churches in Ireland which fail to honour their war dead. This is because of the anti-British sentiment which haunted Ireland from 1918 onwards.

French and Belgians do not have that problem so rightly commemorate their dead in catholic churches.

A lot of people would feel uncomfortable with the outward displays of nationalism which some churches take part in-flags inside the church,plaques,regimental insignia,etc.I know that I would,although I can understand the history behind it.

I'm not aware of any churches which commemorate the dead of the post-independent Irish army or people who were involved in the war of independence?Which possibly suggests that there is more to it than anti-British sentiment.

Jellybaby1

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Church of Ireland is generally regarded as being on the lowish end of the spectrum, but with some spots that are higher (like St. Bartholemew's). But it's also generally regarded as a church that doesn't get steamed up about thisve. In some of the other churches in the Anglican communion, the low and high camps have at time been dismissive of, or hostile to, one another, or at any rate there has been tension and conflict along the low/high split. This happens very little, if at all, in the C of I. The C of I is therefore a ry broad church; it can comfortably accommodate both low and high Anglicans without experiencing stresses as a result of that.

Actually, there are at times 'a split' but usually unspoken. Those in the higher echelons would like you think that everything is hunky dory but I know numerous people who have left their parishes due to them becoming 'too Catholic'. They don't have a problem with Anglicans worshipping whichever way they want, but a lot object to having it imposed on them.

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Think a lot if that is because the ones being remembered are the sons of the estate owners. As a result they had the money and "importance" to put up a monument.
Also loosing 2 or 3 very influential members of a congregation of 100 is a lot

Yes I agree to a great extent, though not all of those honoured were wealthy landowners.

tabbey wrote: »

.....Lots of Anglican churches have kneelers, some with luxurious cushions. I suppose these are not integrated.

Oh, the number of times I've knelt on hard wooden kneelers, the pain of it! Haven't come across much in the way of luxurious cushions to date though occasionally I have come across very deep cushions only, no wooden frame at all.

This would be a good thread for the Christianity forum.

Ursus Horribilis

There's a BBC series called Churches - How to Read Them which is pretty interesting. The fourth episode is about the Reformation and about 15 minutes in, he talks about how they destroyed stained glass windows, broke screens etc.

Avatar MIA

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

There's a BBC series called Churches - How to Read Them which is pretty interesting. The fourth episode is about the Reformation and about 15 minutes in, he talks about how they destroyed stained glass windows, broke screens etc.

That was interesting.

Full Marx

tabbey wrote: »

It is only RC churches in Ireland which fail to honour their war dead. This is because of the anti-British sentiment which haunted Ireland from 1918 onwards.

French and Belgians do not have that problem so rightly commemorate their dead in catholic churches.

Might have something to do with the fact that it was not Irelands war...

riffmongous

I'd guess a lot of protestant communities were also hit much harder by WW1, casualties would have had a much greater effect on the smaller communities, and I'd also guess the enlistment rate would have been higher?

bobbyss

riffmongous wrote:

I'd guess a lot of protestant communities were also hit much harder by WW1, casualties would have had a much greater effect on the smaller communities, and I'd also guess the enlistment rate would have been higher?

I wonder why there seems to be a fixation on WW1. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Boer War was commemorated but there were other conflicts. WW2 for example.

pedroeibar1

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

A lot of people would feel uncomfortable with the outward displays of nationalism which some churches take part in-flags inside the church,plaques,regimental insignia,etc.I know that I would,although I can understand the history behind it.

I disagree with that. Religion – certainly the Anglican and RC sects - plays a big part and is integrated into the military establishment. The history of the parts fulfilled by military chaplains is well documented.
In WW1 for e.g. there was Fr Willie Doyle who was killed in action, Fr. Browne (who survived and became a well-known photographer), and Fr. John Gwynn who died of wounds.
Fr Frank Gleeson was another. His diary entry on the eve of the Battle of Aubers Ridge. “I ride on my horse. Give absolution to the battalion during rest in the road...The men all sing hymns, ‘Hail Glorious St Patrick’. I go further up — near the trenches, and bid goodbye to all. So sad.” Robert Graves the poet/writer (I Claudius, etc) and WW1 officer wrote “Jovial Father Gleeson of the Munsters, when all the officers were killed and wounded at the first battle of Ypres, had stripped off his black badges and, taking command of the survivors, held the line”.

There is a ceremony called ‘The Blessing of the Colours’ – e.g. the painting by Lavery of the RC Archbishop of Dublin with a kneeling officer holding the Tricolour. That ceremony still exists – belowis one from Collins Barracks, Cork.

On the difference between High/Low Church it is necessary to understand the significance of Arminianism and the roles played by James1, Charles 1 and bishop William Laud.

whisky_galore

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

There's a BBC series called Churches - How to Read Them which is pretty interesting. The fourth episode is about the Reformation and about 15 minutes in, he talks about how they destroyed stained glass windows, broke screens etc.

I vaguely remember an RTE(?) series on church architecture during the 1980's, can't think for the life of me what it was called. It had very haunting music played during the end credits.


One thing, what's with the Marian fixation in RC churches and RC monuments in general?

Full Marx

One should not leave out the historical close relationship between the state/ascendency and the established church.

Peregrinus

tabbey wrote: »

It is only RC churches in Ireland which fail to honour their war dead. This is because of the anti-British sentiment which haunted Ireland from 1918 onwards.

French and Belgians do not have that problem so rightly commemorate their dead in catholic churches.

You’re missing the big factor, which is that the C of I generally adheres to the Lutheran idea that praying for the dead is vain, whereas the RCs hold praying for the dead to be a holy and a wholesome thing. This profoundly affects how each church addresses the issue.

There’s a human need to deal with death, and while Anglicans (and Lutherans) don’t pray for the dead (what would be the point, they have been judged already?) they do remember the dead before God. A pretty fine distinction, you may think, but there you go. One of the ways they remember the dead is by erecting memorials in churches. Go into any English country church and you’ll find the walls festooned with plaques erected to the memory of (a) members of notable local families, and (b) former clerics or other people heavily involved with the parish. A few of these, particularly those from the notable local families, will have served the defence forces and may have died in service, and if so this will be mentioned, but mostly not.

Whereas Catholics pray for the dead, rather than erecting memorials to them - they arrange for masses, or mentions in masses, particularly at anniversary time. You’ll usually only find a memorial to a someone in a Catholic church if (a) he’s actually buried in the church, which is rare, or (b) he has paid for, e.g. a stained-glass window or an item of church furniture, in which case he may be mentioned as a benefactor on a nearby plaque. (Note that in this case he may not be dead, or may not have been dead when the plaque was erected.)

OK. With the Anglican tradition of memorial monuments to the dead, it wasn’t a big stretch when the community experienced communal grief, as in response to the Great War, to erect communal memorials to local people who had died in the war, or to members of a local regiment, or whatever. These memorials (if they listed names, which they didn’t always) would list everybody, whether or not a member of the parish, whether or not Anglican. This is natural and Christian, and it also reflects the tradition self-conception of the Anglican church as the national church, with a responsibility and role to the nation, including the non-Anglican part of it. Obviously this wasn’t quite as strong in Ireland as in England, with the Cof I having been destablished more than forty years before the Great War. But, still.

It’s unfair to say that Catholic churches don’t have war memorials because it was anti-British. They generally don’t have war memorials to the IRA, either, or to the Defence Forces of the state. Memorials to the dead are simply not part of the tradition of the Irish Catholic church, because (a) they didn’t need them - they could pray for the dead instead - and (b) they never - or, at least, not after the Reformation - filled the role that English churches did (and that the CofI did to some extent) of supporting and being connected with local landowning families.

Plus, yes, the Irish Catholic church, while it has often sought to influence the state, also maintains some distance from the state. It’s extremely rare, for instance, to see the national flag displayed in an Irish Catholic church, whereas it’s quite common to see that in Catholic churches in other countries. The Catholic church in Australia has special services and liturgies for secular, political holidays - Anzac Day, Australia Day, Remembrance Day - and the same is true in other countries, but I have never seen that in Ireland. And so forth. This may be a relic of the Irish Catholic church’s “outsider” status in British days; it may also reflect a wariness of becoming embroiled in political or party controversy; or it may reflect a distaste for anything which smacks of submission to or endorsement of the state. Whatever the reason, the phenomenon is undeniable.

tabbey

You also have to consider the plaques in churches in France etc.
Look at Amiens Cathedral, it is full of memorials to all nations who fought to preserve French liberty in the Great War, Ireland included, as well as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, United States. there are also memorials to individuals, for example, Asquith's son.

The main difference between RC churches in Ireland and elsewhere, is that in Ireland there are no memorials to the fallen, due to the fear that it was divisive, and might attract negative attention.
A case of whatever you say, say nothing.

pedroeibar1

Surprised that the Confessional has not yet been mentioned.

Avatar MIA

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Surprised that the Confessional has not yet been mentioned.

Think this thread has lost its way...

bit like the Protestant Church :pac::P

Del.Monte

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Think this thread has lost its way...

bit like the Protestant Church :pac::P

How so? It may have lost numbers, but is still thriving - in this neck of the woods anyway.

Avatar MIA

Del.Monte wrote: »

How so? It may have lost numbers, but is still thriving - in this neck of the woods anyway.

Is that not a contradiction in terms?

Anyway it was only a :pac: considering how off topic the thread has become.

pedroeibar1

Del.Monte wrote: »

How so? It may have lost numbers, but is still thriving - in this neck of the woods anyway.

It had a 'head' start down there - John Darby fell off his horse down there, landed on his head and took to preaching in a big way. I recall that Wicklow & North Wexford area had the highest protestant numbers as a % of population in the 1800s. Darby's notions have caused a lot of conflict since then.

bobbyss

pedroeibar1 wrote:

Surprised that the Confessional has not yet been mentioned.

Yes indeed. The Confessional. Did indeed forget about it. Very quaint aspect to churches. Are the days gone when there would be queues outside? It's been a while since I saw their interior, the last time waiting my turn inside I could hear every word being said and knowing both parties. Then wondering about that fact when it was my turn. As mentioned, it's been a while.
But I do like the actual architecture of the boxes.

Del.Monte

One of the best things about digging with the wrong foot is the lack of the confession box; I would be a complete heathen by now if we had them.

They do make great movie props though - below is a scene from the 1970 movie "Underground" shot inside St.Aidans Cathedral in Enniscorthy.



Left to right: Robert Goulet, Carl Duering, Joachim Hansen.

Now that's what I call going off topic.!

Peregrinus

tabbey wrote: »

You also have to consider the plaques in churches in France etc.
Look at Amiens Cathedral, it is full of memorials to all nations who fought to preserve French liberty in the Great War, Ireland included, as well as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, United States. there are also memorials to individuals, for example, Asquith's son.

The main difference between RC churches in Ireland and elsewhere, is that in Ireland there are no memorials to the fallen, due to the fear that it was divisive, and might attract negative attention.
A case of whatever you say, say nothing.

Amiens Cathedral is unusual in that regard. It has all these memorials largely because it's adjacent to the site of the Battle of the Somme. Most of the memorials relate to the Somme, and most of them in fact commemorate British. or British Empire, forces. Note that they were erected by The Commonwealth War Graves Commission, not by the French authorities.
Amiens Cathedral is effectively hosting the expression of a British memoralialising tradition. A number of other French Cathedrals adjacent to battle sites have similar monuments to British Empire forces, also erected by the CWGC.

There are substantial memorials to the French soldiers who died at the Somme, but they are not in Amiens Cathedral (or in any church). That has simply never been a French tradition.

There are some memorials to individual French officers in Amiens Cathedral - there's one to General Leclerc, for instance. (He was born in Amiens.) But I don't think there's much in the way of collective memorials to the French war dead.