Refusal to acknowledge royal personages

Fred Swanson · 29-10-2017 7:26pm #1

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Hitman3000 · 29-10-2017 7:28pm

Fred Swanson wrote:

If I call the so called queen Mrs Windsor and refused to acknowledge her as queen is there any law I could fall foul of?

We don't have royal titles in Ireland so if she ever comes back I'd say you'd be safe enough.

cursai · 29-10-2017 7:29pm

Queen of Ireland and England.

Hitman3000 · 29-10-2017 7:31pm

As an aside Nelson Mandela went further and called her( the queen) by her first name. No consequence or f**ks given.

Victor · 29-10-2017 8:28pm

Unlikely to be any legal issue here, but there may be elsewhere.

One would, of course, not be following protocol and that may be an issue if you were at work at the time.

lifeandtimes · 29-10-2017 8:52pm

Victor wrote: »

Unlikely to be any legal issue here, but there may be elsewhere.

One would, of course, not be following protocol and that may be an issue if you were at work at the time.

One also got the joke one made

Peregrinus · 30-10-2017 1:32am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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No, but you would face social ruin.

She could be Ms. Windsor. But if you're giving her the title "Mrs.", then she's Mrs. Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, this being the family into which she has married.

But seriously, folks; even in the UK there are no legal sanctions for falling to use the forms of address that protocol requires for royalty or for the peerage. There are certainly none in Ireland.

prinzeugen · 30-10-2017 1:45am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Is it all royal families or just the British one? If the Queen or king of Denmark was to visit how would you address them?

In the unlikely event that both were in the same place in Ireland and you referred to QE2 as "Mrs Windsor" but the Norwegian queen as "Her Majesty" is that not be discrimination under the Equal Status Act (to do with nationality?)

What you see is that most people in the UK (public) dont use titles. Its "William" or "Harry" not Your Highness etc.

Mam Does for the Queen if you are not in an official setting.

Peregrinus · 30-10-2017 1:46am

prinzeugen wrote: »

. . . Mam Does for the Queen if you are not in an official setting.

"Ma'am" does for the Queen if you are in an official setting.

"Betty" will do if you're not.

Esel · 30-10-2017 1:48am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Mam Does for the Queen if you are not in an official setting.

It's Ma'am to you, or Liz if you are having tiffin.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 30-10-2017 2:16am

Victor wrote: »

Unlikely to be any legal issue here, but there may be elsewhere.

One would, of course, not be following protocol and that may be an issue if you were at work at the time.

For example in Germany, Italy Switzerland and Poland it is illegal to disrespect a foreign head of state publicly. This could mean by failure to use appropriate titles.

Peregrinus · 30-10-2017 2:55am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

For example in Germany, Italy Switzerland and Poland it is illegal to disrespect a foreign head of state publicly. This could mean by failure to use appropriate titles.

Even there, I think you're probably safe enough. Laws like this are generally directed against explicit insults or derogatory actions- disruptive protests, the use of inherently offensive language, that kind of thing. Failure to use correct protocol, either because you are unaware of it or as an expression of, e.g. egalitarian or republican principles, wouldn't generally be covered, I would think. Obviously, this is going to depend on the exact terms of the law of the country concerned, but in any country which adheres to international human rights conventions, the scope of laws like this would have to be limited by laws protecting freedom of speech, freedom of opinion and freedom of political expression. But I'm not aware of any country in which anyone has been charged or convicted for failure or refusal to observe court protocol as regards forms of address.

The most likely candidate would be Thailand, I think, where they take these things very seriously. But, even in Thailand, simple failure to use the correct form, without some aggravating factor or element, is probably not a crime.

chasm · 30-10-2017 3:51am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Are there any legal consequences for a person who refuses to address members of the royal family by their royal titles?

If I call the so called queen Mrs Windsor and refused to acknowledge her as queen is there any law I could fall foul of?

"There are no obligatory codes of behaviour when meeting The Queen or a member of the Royal Family, but many people wish to observe the traditional forms." https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family

coylemj · 30-10-2017 10:43am

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, but you would face social ruin.

Ronan O'Gara met her somewhere in NI and shook hands with her while his other hand was in his pocket, all recorded by the TV camera that was pointing at them. Haven't heard it affected his social life.

Fred Swanson · 30-10-2017 10:54am

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nuac · 30-10-2017 3:06pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

For example in Germany, Italy Switzerland and Poland it is illegal to disrespect a foreign head of state publicly. This could mean by failure to use appropriate titles.

Germans have a a great respect for titles.

Some older German clIents used to address me as Herr Rechtanswalt (NUAC)

Sleeper12 · 30-10-2017 3:21pm

Fred Swanson wrote:

If I call the so called queen Mrs Windsor and refused to acknowledge her as queen is there any law I could fall foul of?

In Ireland you can call her anything you want. I would call her by her title out of respect for British people. The same way I'd call Trump Mr President. The fact that I think he is totally waste of space and a sorry excuse for a human being wouldn't come into it. I also pay respect to other countries national anthems and flags

exaisle · 30-10-2017 3:31pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

"Ma'am" does for the Queen if you are in an official setting.

"Betty" will do if you're not.

It's actually "Mam as in Dam" not "Ma'am as in shawm", "Mam" being a more accurate abbreviation of Madam....it's usually spelled "ma'am" but pronounced "Mam".

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-10-2017 3:38pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Just on the bowing. Protocol in Britain is that only her subjects are expected to bow or curtsy. So, you're clear there.

mdebets · 30-10-2017 4:29pm

nuac wrote: »

Germans have a a great respect for titles.

Some older German clIents used to address me as Herr Rechtanswalt (NUAC)

But that's just for a small number of titles like Rechtanswalt or (medical) Doktor and maybe in cases if someone has a PhD. Now, if you go to Austria on the other hand, they are really mad with titles.

mdebets · 30-10-2017 4:45pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

For example in Germany, Italy Switzerland and Poland it is illegal to disrespect a foreign head of state publicly. This could mean by failure to use appropriate titles.

While the law is still on the books in Germany, itwill be removed on 1/1/2018.

coylemj · 30-10-2017 5:10pm

exaisle wrote: »

It's actually "Mam as in Dam" not "Ma'am as in shawm", "Mam" being a more accurate abbreviation of Madam....it's usually spelled "ma'am" but pronounced "Mam".

+1 In the movie 'The Queen', one of the early scenes is set on the day after the 1997 UK General Election and sees Tony Blair arrive at Buckingham Palace to be appointed PM. An equerry (a uniformed RAF officer) escorts Blair up the stairs to the receiving room and literally on the hoof gives him a grounding on the protocol to be observed, including : 'it's Ma'am as in 'Ham''

Esel · 30-10-2017 6:32pm

exaisle wrote: »

It's actually "Mam as in Dam" not "Ma'am as in shawm", "Mam" being a more accurate abbreviation of Madam....it's usually spelled "ma'am" but pronounced "Mam".

Don't how how you got 'Mawm' from Ma'am... it's more like 'Mahm' to my ear.

Muahahaha · 30-10-2017 11:47pm

coylemj wrote: »

Ronan O'Gara met her somewhere in NI and shook hands with her while his other hand was in his pocket, all recorded by the TV camera that was pointing at them. Haven't heard it affected his social life.

That was gas. Brian ODriscolls reaction said it all

Fred Swanson · 30-10-2017 11:49pm

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vapor trails · 30-10-2017 11:57pm

Can we change the title of this thread to "O'Gara appreciation thread" and move it to rugby?

madmaggie · 31-10-2017 12:17am

Connor Sharp Kindergarten wrote: »

Just on the bowing. Protocol in Britain is that only her subjects are expected to bow or curtsy. So, you're clear there.

What if you have dual citizenship? A wee bit of a curtsy? :P

Carawaystick · 31-10-2017 12:32am

Try replace Elizabeth2 with Frank, king of the Vatican. Who'd care (legally) if some lad gave him shade?

Peregrinus · 31-10-2017 1:26am

madmaggie wrote: »

What if you have dual citizenship? A wee bit of a curtsy? :P

You just bend one knee. It's tricky to pull this off without falling over, so practice at home first.

Peregrinus · 31-10-2017 1:27am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Try replace Elizabeth2 with Frank, king of the Vatican. Who'd care (legally) if some lad gave him shade?

No one.

Indricotherium · 31-10-2017 6:15am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In Ireland you can call her anything you want. I would call her by her title out of respect for British people. The same way I'd call Trump Mr President.

That's different.

He (one way or another) earned his title.

Victor · 31-10-2017 8:35am

Indricotherium wrote: »

That's different.

He (one way or another) earned his title.

Or as some people see it, he (one way or another) bought his title.

Peregrinus · 31-10-2017 8:41am

Victor wrote: »

Or as some people see it, he (one way or another) bought his title.

In a capitalist economy, this is the highest form of earning something!

Fred Swanson · 31-10-2017 8:49am

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Victor · 31-10-2017 9:04am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Democratic? Less than 550 people got to vote in Trump's election. He lost the popular vote. The American system is skewed to benefit one/two dominant parties. While American citizens abroad can vote in presidential elections, residents of territories (several million) can't.

Democratic? Yeah, sure.

Peregrinus · 31-10-2017 9:09am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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No, it just means he presides over something. Vladimir Putin really is a president, just like Robert Mugabe.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Nobody (in this thread) is saying that you should bow down to her but, if you decide not to, I sincerely hope that it's not because you object to her ethnic origins!

She really is the queen of the United Kingdom, and I think its fair to say that her position really does enjoy popular assent and a degree of democratic support. Not that she has been elected to the position, but the British people have repeatedly elected and re-elected representatives who have sworn allegiance to her, and have not objected to doing so. So I think this particular monarchy does enjoy implicit democratic endorsement.

You may think that monarchy is silly or objectionable in principle. I wouldn't disagree. Still, its for the Brits to decide the UK's form of government; my views on this question are not something they have to pay any attention to. So in the unlikely event that I was called upon to meet her in her official capacity, I think I'd accord her the respect - including the gestures of respect - due to a head of state representing her country.

Refusal to acknowledge royal personages

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