Is depression a disease of modern civilization?

badabing106

Is depression caused by a high-stress, industrialized, disconnected, Isolating, modern lifestyle that is incompatible with our genetic evolution?

s4uv3

badabing106 wrote: »

Is depression caused by a high-stress, industrialized, disconnected, Isolating, modern lifestyle that is incompatible with our genetic evolution?

Sometimes. Sometimes not.
There are infinite reasons someone might become depressed. Circumstantial, mental disorder, chemical imbalance, injury, hormonal issues, grief, isolation, perceived failure to name but a small few.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

It is far from a modern disorder. Off the top of my head, a Greek physician (whose name escapes me at the moment) in the 1st century referred to a complaint 'dull or stern; dejected or unreasonably torpid, without any manifest cause'. I don't get where you get any link between depression and comparability with 'genetic evolution' as it seems to display a complete misunderstanding of evolution.

badabing106

When I say modern civilization, I mean before the last 10 thousand years. The move from being hunter gatherers to being settled farmers

It would have been very difficult for Hunter gatherers to be depressed considering that they had to live in the moment and depend on each other to survive

Let's face it. We are still hunter gatherers today.Our brains and body have not changed. We were designed to live in a hunter gatherer environment

In a study of 2000 Kaluli aborigines from Papua New Guinea, only one marginal case of clinical depression was found. Why? Because the Kaluli lifestyle is very similar to our hunter-gatherer ancestors’ lifestyle that lasted for nearly 2 million years before agriculture, Ildari said.

“99.9 percent of the human experience was lived in a hunter-gatherer context,” he added. “Most of the selection pressures that have sculpted and shaped our genomes are really well adapted for that environment and that lifestyle.”

badabing106

badabing106 wrote: »

Today, one in four Americans will be diagnosed as clinically depressed

There's the knub (?), While there are depressed people, there are many more who are on the bandswagon. If I feel a bit sad, should I go to the doctor for a little pink pill?

tigger123

I always think about it in the context of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: the closer you move towards the point of self actualization (and away from fearing for personal safety, food etc) the more likely you are to get bogged down in the direction of your life.

In short, in some instances you need to be in a relatively comfortable position (like we are in western society) to be depressed.

nice_guy80

I presume palaeolithic hunters got stressed about their food supply, attacks from wild animals and other tribes/family groups

and therefore depressed when things didn't go their way

branie2

It might be

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

Is depression caused by a high-stress, industrialized, disconnected, Isolating, modern lifestyle that is incompatible with our genetic evolution?

I'm out. You just posted a comment straight from Dr. Stephen Ildari

It’s a disease caused by a high-stress, industrialized, modern lifestyle that is incompatible with our genetic evolution.

Is this a homework assignment? Just read his book but please read somebody else as well, for balance.

pitifulgod

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I presume palaeolithic hunters got stressed about their food supply, attacks from wild animals and other tribes/family groups

and therefore depressed when things didn't go their way

Average life span of maybe hitting your thirties. Constant threats of deadly illnesses, infections and predators... Mightn't get depression but constant threats to one's mortality also means that any form happiness probably wasn't the most forthcoming....

badabing106

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I presume palaeolithic hunters got stressed about their food supply, attacks from wild animals and other tribes/family groups

and therefore depressed when things didn't go their way

Complete opposite actually. They were very skilled at what they did and learned how to survive and thrive in their environment.

If you have to hunt or gather in order to survive on a day to the day basis, it is not possible to be depressed, you don't hunt or gather you die. Depression cannot come into consideration

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

Complete opposite actually

If you have to hunt or gather in order to survive, it is not possible to be depressed, you don't hunt or gather you die. Depression cannot come into consideration

That notion is quite insulting in some ways. "Snap out of it and keep yourself busy" - almost. Of course hunter gathers could suffer from depression that stems from a chemical imbalance, hormonal issues, or even inherited abnormalities. You are falling for the USP of the book. Stress can lead to depression and hunter gatherers are/were subjected to stress. I spent time with the San people in the 1970s and, believe me, they too knew depression but called it many other things.

suicide_circus

There is a lot of money to be made via frequent diagnosis.

pitifulgod

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

That notion is quite insulting in some ways. "Snap out of it and keep yourself busy" - almost. Of course hunter gathers could suffer from depression that stems from a chemical imbalance, hormonal issues, or even inherited abnormalities. You are falling for the USP of the book. Stress can lead to depression and hunter gatherers are/were subjected to stress. I spent time with the San people in the 1970s and, believe me, they too knew depression but called it many other things.

Plus you'll find plenty of high functioning people with depression. I wouldn't really be in the category of low functioning at any point. I'm highly effective at my job and wouldn't meet any standard picture of a depressed person. But I've been dealing with depression and anxiety since I was a teen. This discussion reminds me a bit of the ridiculous plugs for paleo diets...

Funny how?

I actually think social media has a lot to do with people developing it when it's not something physically wrong like a chemical imbalance.

It's more common than anything.

badabing106

It's not snap out of it and keep busy. It's if you don't snap out of it, you are dead and your offspring are dead.

pitifulgod

badabing106 wrote: »

It's not snap out of it and keep busy. It's if you don't snap out of it, you are dead and your offspring are dead.

You're assuming that depression doesn't fit into evolution... There's research into if depression provides advantages to those suffering from it. Intellectual faculties can rise allowing for improved problem solving abilities. Highly creative people also have a higher proclivity for depression. There's plenty of reasons for something to occur that's purpose isn't at first obvious in evolutionary terms. Eg hunter gatherers would have been subject to anxiety as fight or flight. This provides an improved chance of survival.

https://lifehacker.com/5483797/the-evolutionary-reason-for-depression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_approaches_to_depression

badabing106

pitifulgod wrote: »

You're assuming that depression doesn't fit into evolution... There's research into if depression provides advantages to those suffering from it. Intellectual faculties can rise allowing for improved problem solving abilities. Highly creative people also have a higher proclivity for depression.

https://lifehacker.com/5483797/the-evolutionary-reason-for-depression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_approaches_to_depression

If hunter gather bands are only thinking about their next meal in order to survive . Depression is impossible. Your next meal will have your 100% undivided attention. If one in 4 Americans has clinical depression today. That is a modern phenomenon

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

If hunter gather bands are only thinking about their next meal in order to survive . Depression is impossible. Your next meal will have your 100% undivided attention. If one in 4 Americans has clinical depression today. That is a modern phenomenon

Do you really believe that? If so, it is a very naïve view of both the life of a hunter gatherer and of depression.

badabing106

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

Do you really believe that? If so, it is a very naïve view of both the life of a hunter gatherer and of depression.

Survival instinct trumps everything

pitifulgod

badabing106 wrote: »

If hunter gather bands are only thinking about their next meal. Depression is impossible. Your next meal will have your 100% undivided attention. If one in 4 Americans has clinical depression today. That is a modern phenomenon

And a higher intellectual capacity as a result of depression would actually benefit them in terms of hunting.... You're treating it as some sort of modern malady but there is growing evidence that it's an adaptation.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

We also have written record going back to Ancient Greece that describes the symptoms of depression. That's a considerably different lifestyle to a modern one but it still existed. I've also pointed to the fact that it could very well have been beneficial even in a hunter gatherer scenario. So maybe you're simply wrong?

badabing106 wrote: »

Survival instinct trumps everything

Survival instinct, fight or flight etc is effectively anxiety. Which is closely associated with depression.... So are you saying anxiety has an evolutionary benefit? You do know where this logic follows through?

badabing106

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

Do you really believe that? If so, it is a very na view of both the life of a hunter gatherer and of depression.

Hunter gatherers had to live in the moment they could maybe wager 3 or 4 meals ahead. When your mind and body is craving for food, that is the only thought in you mind. Food is everything. Survival survival survial

markodaly

Someone once said that "In the future we will lack nothing of want but want itself"

I am the firm believer of modern life contributing massively to depression. Humans are a product of nature and the environment, yet people are totally unattached from both.

lazybones32

suicide_circus wrote: »

There is a lot of money to be made via frequent diagnosis.

Psychoanalysis is a huge con imo. You talk, stream of consciousness, for the duration of the session and the analyst makes connections; often offers no practical advice in a non-directive style but encourages you to return for multiple sessions.
As if simply talking about an issue is itself the solution to it.

Huge money to be made in it.

badabing106

pitifulgod wrote: »

And a higher intellectual capacity as a result of depression would actually benefit them in terms of hunting.... You're treating it as some sort of modern malady but there is growing evidence that it's an adaptation.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

We also have written record going back to Ancient Greece that describes the symptoms of depression. That's a considerably different lifestyle to a modern one but it still existed. I've also pointed to the fact that it could very well have been beneficial even in a hunter gatherer scenario. So maybe you're simply wrong?



Survival instinct, fight or flight etc is effectively anxiety. Which is closely associated with depression.... So are you saying anxiety has an evolutionary benefit? You do know where this logic follows through?

Not at all. Next meal is important. Or we die

badabing106

pitifulgod wrote: »

And a higher intellectual capacity as a result of depression would actually benefit them in terms of hunting.... You're treating it as some sort of modern malady but there is growing evidence that it's an adaptation.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/

We also have written record going back to Ancient Greece that describes the symptoms of depression. That's a considerably different lifestyle to a modern one but it still existed. I've also pointed to the fact that it could very well have been beneficial even in a hunter gatherer scenario. So maybe you're simply wrong?



Survival instinct, fight or flight etc is effectively anxiety. Which is closely associated with depression.... So are you saying anxiety has an evolutionary benefit? You do know where this logic follows through?

For hunter gatherer depression did not exist. I can assure you,. They had more important things to worry about. Like themselves, their loved ones etc

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

Not at all. Next meal is important. Or we die

I'm sorry but that is absolute baloney. I assume you have no experience of depression or mental health issues. I also take it you have neither studied anthropology nor evolution.

Edit Dr Ilardi basically has no understanding of genetics or evolution and advocates taking omega 3, using Seasonal Affective Light treatment and exercising, as the basic tenants of his magical six step cure for depression in all it's forms.

badabing106

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is absolute baloney. I assume you have no experience of depression or mental health issues. I also take it you have neither studied anthropology nor evolution.

I believe that hunter gatherers lived day to day. 100%?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

For hunter gatherer depression did not exist. I can assure you,. They had more important things to worry about. Like themselves, their loved ones etc

So, worry does not lead to stress or to depression? Come off it!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

I believe that hunter gatherers lived day to day. 100%?

You can believe all you like. It's a free world. But you are so wrong it's not even funny.

pitifulgod

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is absolute baloney. I assume you have no experience of depression or mental health issues. I also take it you have neither studied anthropology nor evolution.

Edit Dr Ilardi basically has no understanding of genetics or evolution and advocates taking omega 3, using Seasonal Affective Light treatment and exercising, as the basic tenants of his magical six step cure for depression in all it's forms.

It's pretty telling that his sole source is this book and he entirely ignores all other sources and fields of study including evolutionary psychology etc... Then ascribes his conclusion to evolution, no less...

badabing106

pitifulgod wrote: »

It's pretty telling that his sole source is this book and he entirely ignores all other sources and fields of study including evolutionary psychology etc... Then ascribes his conclusion to evolution, no less...

I gave one reference. Who is respected. And you gave none?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

pitifulgod wrote: »

It's pretty telling that his sole source is this book and he entirely ignores all other sources and fields of study including evolutionary psychology etc... Then ascribes his conclusion to evolution, no less...

Plus he thinks hunter gatherers could not possibly have had low doses of Serotonin although the Tryptophan, from which it is derived, was often lacking in their diets.

badabing106

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

Plus he thinks hunter gatherers could not possibly have had low doses of Serotonin although the Tryptophan, from which it is derived, was often lacking in their diets.

Izaiah Whispering Trainee, you know better than anyone


Who do you think were happier?


Hunter gatherers?


Or

Post industrial people

pitifulgod

badabing106 wrote: »

I gave one reference. Who is respected. And you gave none?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2734449/

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nesse/Articles/Nesse-EvolMood-APAText-2006.pdf

You can check the other references from the Wikipedia evolutionary psychology section on depression that I linked too. Plenty of papers available on the topic. Srameen actually found the source of your claim btw, it's not a credible reason to believe depression did not exist in prehistoric times. Do you have any peer reviewed papers that back up your claim?

badabing106

[QUOTE=pitifulgod;105116594personal.umich.edu/~nesse/Articles/Nesse-EvolMood-APAText-2006.pdf[/url]

Srameen actually found the source of your claim btw, it's not a credible reason to believe depression did not exist in prehistoric times.[/QUOTE]

Huh

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

Srameen, you know better than anyone


Who do you think were happier?


Hunter gatherers?


Or

Post industrial people

That's a completely different question than maintaining that pre-argi peoples did not suffer from depression.

Are we now moving to post industrial revolution? And are we moving to levels of happiness rather than depression? Are we forgetting the 'genetic evolution' nonsense?

The answer is neither or both. I have met Hunter Gatherers who were extremely happy and others who were what we would call clinically depressed. I know people today who have mental health issues around depression but I, and many people, am exceptionally happy.
For sure more people are diagnosed as depressed nowadays but that's contributed to by more and better diagnostics and less reluctance to seek help.
In many ways life for people in first world countries is less stressful than for pre industrial times and even pre agrarian times. For some people modern life bring pressures and stresses that affect happiness. But not all depression is related to lifestyle or stresses.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

Huh

I think pitifulgod was quite clear regarding that book the book ...

it's not a credible reason to believe depression did not exist in prehistoric times.

badabing106

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

That's a completely different question than maintaining that pre-argi peoples did not suffer from depression.

Are we now moving to post industrial revolution? And are we moving to levels of happiness rather than depression? Are we forgetting the 'genetic evolution' nonsense?

The answer is neither or both. I have met Hunter Gatherers who were extremely happy and others who were what we would call clinically depressed. I know people today who have mental health issues around depression but I, and many people, am exceptionally happy.
For sure more people are diagnosed as depressed nowadays but that's contributed to by more and better diagnostics and less reluctance to seek help.
In many ways life for people in first world countries is less stressful than for pre industrial times and even pre agrarian times. For some people modern life bring pressures and stresses that affect happiness. But not all depression is related to lifestyle or stresses.

I think we were happier as hunter gatherers.
ONe in Four Americans are diagnosed with depression. That is 25 %population describing themselves as mentally ill

Do you think hunter gatherers were less healthy? Do you give give any significance we were hunter gatherers for 99.9 % of our lives,that is what matters

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

badabing106 wrote: »

I think we were happier as hunter gatherers.
ONe in Four Americans are diagnosed with depression. That is 25 %population describing themselves as mentally ill

Do you think hunter gatherers were less healthy? Do you give give any significance we were hunter gatherers for 99.9 % of our lives,that is what matters

With this I'm out of here because you are spurting unsubstantiated nonsense at this stage,.

You have no idea what we were lime as a hunter gatherer society except what's in that one poor book. According to the WHO 6.7% of Americans experience one major depressive episode in a year. You know what percentage of ancient hunter gathers had a single day in the year when they were depressed? Of course not.

I never mentioned general health of hunter gatherers - although their diet was lasting in many essential elements.
How long we existed as hunter gathers has nothing to do with any of this. You are just rambling now.

/out

badabing106

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

You have no idea what we were lime as a hunter gatherer society except what's in that one poor book. According to the WHO 6.7% of Americans experience one major depressive episode in a year. You know what percentage of ancient hunter gathers had a single day in the year when they were depressed? Of course not.

I never mentioned general health of hunter gatherers - although their diet was lasting in many essential elements.
How long we existed as hunter gathers has nothing to do with any of this. You are just rambling now.

/out

How long we existed as hunter gatherers is important, 99.9% of our existence.

222233

badabing106 wrote: »

Is depression caused by a high-stress, industrialized, disconnected, Isolating, modern lifestyle that is incompatible with our genetic evolution?

Depression can be caused by any number of factors, indeed isolation and factors pertaining to modern lifestyle may in some instances contribute to it's development.

I would not say that depression is a disease of the modern civilisation, what I would say is that the diagnosis of depression has perhaps changed.

For example there are different types and manifestations of depression (e.g Major Depressive Disorder, Dysthymic disorder, SAD, PND etc) the term "depression" is really just a one size fits all label. What I have noticed is that often times people will diagnose themselves, for on example online where it may suggest that two weeks of a low mood "means you have depression", when in fact it could be the case that say for example someone has just gone through a break up and is experiencing a temporary low mood.

Similarly a lot of people may take being on antidepressants prescribed by a GP to combat symptoms not formally diagnosed as a depressive episode or disorder.

Hmmmm, Chore Sex Guy has the same fixation about things being better in hunting gathering times...here's your last effort OP...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104884642

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmmm, Chore Sex Guy has the same fixation about things being better in hunting gathering times...here's your last effort OP...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104884642

He's like a broken record. The sooner he moves on to a new book the better - but that could be a few weeks. A little learning is a dangerous thing.

Izaiah Whispering Trainee

Izaiah Whispering Trainee wrote: »

He's like a broken record. The sooner he moves on to a new book the better - but that could be a few weeks. A little learning is a dangerous thing.

It won't. He'll be at it months from now.

The strange thing is how he manages to pop up under some guises that remain, some that are gone before dawn, and kinda allocates topics to the various personas.

qwerty ui op

this is the disease of the insecure man