I am an atheist that has had nothing but a good experience with catholic schools

Hooks Golf Handicap

6 years ago we came to enroll our oldest, told them about the non-god thing from the get go & we had no issue.

Our 2nd started 2 years later & it's been the exact same experience.
The teachers allow our kids to get on with homework during religion class & that suits us fine as working parents, less to do at home.

Finally our youngest started this year & now there are 4 in his class not baptised & won't be taking communion.

Luckily we are a small town with a new school so they needed all the enrollments they could get to keep up teacher numbers.

The best thing has been the principal allowing us to take the kids out the week leading up their first communion where we go on a family holiday to Salou. As it's not high season flights & accommodation can be less than half the July cost & the temperatures are just perfect.

So a big shout out to jesus schools & the waste of a week before communion.
It's given us some of our best memories as a family.

TheChizler

Glad you've had such a good experience, unfortunately not everyone has had the same experience as you.

mikhail

This is how it should work in a mostly homogeneous region. Good people make allowances for difference. Sad it often goes otherwise.

branie2

That's great

recedite

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

The best thing has been the principal allowing us to take the kids out the week leading up their first communion where we go on a family holiday to Salou.

Thank god for small mercies :pac:
But lots of people in Ireland do that anyway, without asking, regardless of what patronage the school is. In the UK they make a much bigger deal about it, and one guy was taken to court over the issue last year.

Yes, its "frowned upon" but if you were to get into the legalities of it, I'm not sure the principal would have any more authority than the parents when it comes to your breaking the state's rules for school attendance.

GritBiscuit

recedite wrote: »

Yes, its "frowned upon" but if you were to get into the legalities of it, I'm not sure the principal would have any more authority than the parents when it comes to your breaking the state's rules for school attendance.

Article 42 of the Constitution would easily usurp any presumed authority on the part of a principal...parents are only obliged to ensure their offspring receive a minimum standard of education on this side of the water. Holiday at will OP - just make sure the days absent are still within the 20 day limit where schools report to the CFA. :cool:

recedite

GritBiscuit wrote: »

- just make sure the days absent are still within the 20 day limit where schools report to the CFA. :cool:

OK, I wasn't sure of the exact rule. Its a bit rich of the principal saying which particular week you can take though, that's my point.
Its like the foreman telling you when you can take your sick leave.

I get that the principal is basically saying "we are only teaching BS this week, so don't bother sending your kids in". So kinda doing the OP a favour by giving the heads up.
Still, take those holidays whenever it suits you, not when the school principal decides to opt out of education. That's my advice. Having said that, it probably is the perfect week; cheap holiday, and the kids not missing anything.

Vlove

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

6 years ago we came to enroll our oldest, told them about the non-god thing from the get go & we had no issue.

Our 2nd started 2 years later & it's been the exact same experience.
The teachers allow our kids to get on with homework during religion class & that suits us fine as working parents, less to do at home.

Finally our youngest started this year & now there are 4 in his class not baptised & won't be taking communion.

Luckily we are a small town with a new school so they needed all the enrollments they could get to keep up teacher numbers.

The best thing has been the principal allowing us to take the kids out the week leading up their first communion where we go on a family holiday to Salou. As it's not high season flights & accommodation can be less than half the July cost & the temperatures are just perfect.

So a big shout out to jesus schools & the waste of a week before communion.
It's given us some of our best memories as a family.

Wish I had that chance when I went to a catholic school, I wish we never had to do religion because it was pure ****e and bland in my opinon..

flaneur

The problem is this is totally dependent on the good will and understanding of one or two individuals. It’s not always the case that schools are very accommodating and, as you said, it’s a small rural school that needs the numbers.

My experience is that all it takes is one teacher or principal who feels it’s his or her moral duty to evangelize and you’ve a big problem. The experience that two family members have had was that where they’re another religion, that’s respected but non religious, Irish person with Irish name and so on to some teachers’ minds = lazy catholic who needs to be “brought back into the flock”.

Decades of allowing schools to blatantly ignore the constitution and no consequence for doing so has resulted in a very strange situation.

We need proper law to protect all kids and parents from religious discrimination in de facto public schools whether they’re non majority religion or no religion.

kerryjack

I have one down 3 more for this communion bull****e I cringe to sit there while I look at a grown man in a dress talk nonsense for an hour, OH wants to run with it as she said we would be ran out of town and condemned for ever, her family would be fairly religious so I supose I am going to have to sit there and look interested for the sake of peace.

robindch

kerryjack wrote: »

OH wants to run with it as she said we would be ran out of town and condemned for ever, her family would be fairly religious so I supose I am going to have to sit there and look interested for the sake of peace.

Ah, welcome to family politics - as you know well, toeing the line sets a precedent for compliant behavior which can be hard to break further on. While not toeing it can seem to break a truce implicitly signed the day that this wasn't discussed and agreed previously.

Can't speak for you, but for myself, I decided long ago that the upside of my integrity and my kid's integrity + innocence were more important than the downside of the indignant offence and anger offered by one senior individual in my extended family.

Your mileage may, of course, vary.

Snotty

This thread is like congratuling the junkie who mugged you for not sticking a needle in you before they leave.

Most parents of non Christians are put through so much hassle that they just allow their child to confirm with whatever religion is pushed on them, and I really don't blame them for taking the easy route, kids will make their own mind up eventually.

robindch

Snotty wrote: »

[...] kids will make their own mind up eventually.

Many don't - again, choosing the easy way out; or possibly, having been got-to early enough, never learn how to see past the carefully-constructed skein of religious fantasy.

smacl

robindch wrote: »

Many don't - again, choosing the easy way out; or possibly, having been got-to early enough, never learn how to see past the carefully-constructed skein of religious fantasy.

That does seem to be on reason why religions are so keen to attach themselves to primary education, 'Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man' and all that.

Frank Bullitt

I'd be the same as the OP, went to a CB school and it was fine, despite the "religion" class part, which was just Catholic propaganda. I did, however, have one teacher for 2 years who was nothing but a grade A prick. He was very fire and brimstone and was only a hairs breath short of wanting to his us for not doing homework or something similar. He also loved the crap with the local church, I remember one of my classmates who was an alter boy who decided to stop doing that so he could play football instead. The mother was called in to discuss it as well, our parents were in the same circle.

I probably wouldn't have had the same experience of a CB school though if it had been the 60's or 70's mind you.

seamus

robindch wrote: »

Many don't - again, choosing the easy way out; or possibly, having been got-to early enough, never learn how to see past the carefully-constructed skein of religious fantasy.

Indeed, one only has to see the effect of upbringing on a person's opinions in general - not just religion - to know that most people don't really swing very far from the things that they are taught as fact when they're young.

As much as the OP has had a good experience, one only has to look at how bizarre the "allowance" is to realise that the school is being praised for not being assholes.

You are permitted to take your child out of school on a holiday so as to not attend a religious class. That is, attend religious instruction or don't attend at all. That's not "generous" of the school, it's crazy.

It becomes crazier when you find out that the basis of this "generosity" is the fact that the school refuses to educate children who do not want to attend religious instruction. The rules for most religious schools are that parents who opt-out of religion must provide alternative arrangements for their children - because the school will not. The schools literally refuse to educate the children.

What's worse is that this comes with conditions. Parents are allowed to supervise the children in the school, but the children are not permitted to engage in any curricular work within the school walls while the other children are receiving their indoctrination. My nephew's school has agreed that the pagan children can all gather in a single classroom while the rest are off doing their communion prep-work, but whatever the parents decide to do with those children, must not be on the school curriculum.

Think about how crazy that is - children, in a school, during the school day, are not permitted to learn the national curriculum simply because they're not Catholic.

Schools aren't being "nice" to non-Catholic children. They're doing the absolute bare minimum necessary to accommodate non-Catholics, without making it look like a better option that other parents or children might choose to do.

My sister-in-law is considering arranging a computer science/computer studies course in the case of my nephew. She's hoping that not only will those kids learn some valuable skills, but they won't feel like the communion kids are doing something that's more fun.

recedite

seamus wrote: »

Think about how crazy that is - children, in a school, during the school day, are not permitted to learn the national curriculum simply because they're not Catholic.

Its a special kind of crazy alright. Teachers being paid by the state to prevent kids educating themselves while on the school premises.
Just in case the pagan kids might gain an "unfair" educational advantage relative to their religious peers, who are kept busy being religiously indoctrinated by the school.

Hotblack Desiato

Can we stop calling non-christians pagans? Thanks.

seamus

That was tongue-in-cheek on my part

Odhinn

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

6 years ago we came to enroll our oldest, told them about the non-god thing from the get go & we had no issue.

Our 2nd started 2 years later & it's been the exact same experience.
The teachers allow our kids to get on with homework during religion class & that suits us fine as working parents, less to do at home.

Finally our youngest started this year & now there are 4 in his class not baptised & won't be taking communion.

Luckily we are a small town with a new school so they needed all the enrollments they could get to keep up teacher numbers.

The best thing has been the principal allowing us to take the kids out the week leading up their first communion where we go on a family holiday to Salou. As it's not high season flights & accommodation can be less than half the July cost & the temperatures are just perfect.

So a big shout out to jesus schools & the waste of a week before communion.
It's given us some of our best memories as a family.

There is absolutely no consistency between schools on the matter, so while your experience is a good one, it says little about anywhere else. And there's no guarantee that a change in staff/management might reverse the situation.

Roger Hassenforder

smacl wrote: »

That does seem to be on reason why religions are so keen to attach themselves to primary education, 'Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man' and all that.

It'll take about 5mins to knock that nonsense out of them though.
Sent my kids to the local Catholic school rather than an Educate Together. at 9, one seems to have already copped the gig.

smacl

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It'll take about 5mins to knock that nonsense out of them though.
Sent my kids to the local Catholic school rather than an Educate Together. at 9, one seems to have already copped the gig.

Probably also due to the fact that a large number of the teachers have to lie about their religion to get into the school too. I think the number of genuine hardliners is rapidly dwindling. Hopefully it will be a nonsense that is long gone when our kids are sending their's to school. Anyhoo, for a few smiles on the subject some FA&H;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Ou3lAGl-M

branie2

Sure, ye can go to Mass on Saturday as well!

Hotblack Desiato

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It'll take about 5mins to knock that nonsense out of them though.
Sent my kids to the local Catholic school rather than an Educate Together. at 9, one seems to have already copped the gig.

Did you opt them out of religion? What did you do during communion year? Any particular reason you didn't want to send them to the ET?

Odhinn

branie2 wrote: »

Sure, ye can go to Mass on Saturday as well!

If it's good enough for the Jews....

Galbin

Why not send kids to a non-denominational school if it's that important? I really don't understand why people complain about Catholic rituals in a Catholic school. I wouldn't be uber offended if I sent my kid to a Jewish school and they expected him to read the Torah etc.

Roger Hassenforder

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did you opt them out of religion? What did you do during communion year? Any particular reason you didn't want to send them to the ET?

nope! they made their communions with the rest of their class. Some kids opted out all right, which I thought was a bit peculiar, as its a Catholic school.
I dont feel hypocritical as I'm not Catholic, but their mother is (but non church going!)

My reason is probably going to come across as very "racist/bigoted", but the local Educate Together seems to have a lot of non Irish national kids, seem to be a lot of parents whose certain very obvious values I wouldn't necessarily like my children being exposed to, or see their education suffering because a teacher is spending a lot of time explaining stuff to children who dont speak English.
I'd prefer if it was non-denom, but i'll take my chances with the Catholic education for a while, its a good school and my girls are happy, which to me is the important thing. as i said, the oldest has already copped the gig without any effort from me.

TheChizler

Galbin wrote: »

Why not send kids to a non-denominational school if it's that important? I really don't understand why people complain about Catholic rituals in a Catholic school. I wouldn't be uber offended if I sent my kid to a Jewish school and they expected him to read the Torah etc.

Exactly how many non-denomination schools are in the country?

Roger Hassenforder

TheChizler wrote: »

Exactly how many non-denomination schools are in the country?

I think a lot of Atheists are choosing Catholic schools. I did, as I perceived a bit the standard of education was higher than the local educate together. Obviously I've no issue sacrificing my principles where my kids are concerned!

looksee

Choosing Catholic schools is fine if there is actually a choice.

Galbin

TheChizler wrote: »

Exactly how many non-denomination schools are in the country?

No idea. I don't know a town in my area without one though. Personally I would find a non-denominational school if there were only Jewish/Islam etc. schools in my area. Or, if I sent them to say a Jewish school I would see it as inevitable that the school would have a Jewish ethos and Jewish rites.

smacl

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I think a lot of Atheists are choosing Catholic schools. I did, as I perceived a bit the standard of education was higher than the local educate together. Obviously I've no issue sacrificing my principles where my kids are concerned!

A lot more Catholics are choosing Educate Together at a national level though, as figures indicate that rates of over subscription in ET schools are considerably higher than religious ethos schools. I'd agree entirely in not letting your principles come in the way of getting what's best for your kids, though sometimes what this is can be less than obvious. While I'm a big fan of ET schools, I'd say a bigger problem than religious ethos at second level is gender segregation. At senior cycle religion basically boils down to wasted time in a busy academic schedule, which is an annoyance but not much more. Subject choice and streaming is the real issue in an all girls school. In my older girls school for example forget engineering, woodwork, metalwork or applied maths. Getting a physics class for the leaving cert was very touch and go, and pass and honours are mixed which is far from ideal. At the same time, every stream has home economics. Hardly a wonder women are under represented in areas like the sciences, engineering and technology in this country when so many schools seem more geared to turning girls into housewives and mammies. Unfortunately, historically part of the Catholic ethos was that a woman's place was in the home and this still lingers on more than you might think. If you've daughters like myself, figuring out what makes for the best education can be fraught.

One eyed Jack

looksee wrote: »

Choosing Catholic schools is fine if there is actually a choice.

That choice doesn't happen though if there is insufficient pressure on politicians from the electorate to provide such choice for those parents who would avail of it.

smacl wrote: »

A lot more Catholics are choosing Educate Together at a national level though, as figures indicate that rates of over subscription in ET schools are considerably higher than religious ethos schools. I'd agree entirely in not letting your principles come in the way of getting what's best for your kids, though sometimes what this is can be less than obvious. While I'm a big fan of ET schools, I'd say a bigger problem than religious ethos at second level is gender segregation. At senior cycle religion basically boils down to wasted time in a busy academic schedule, which is an annoyance but not much more. Subject choice and streaming is the real issue in an all girls school. In my older girls school for example forget engineering, woodwork, metalwork or applied maths. Getting a physics class for the leaving cert was very touch and go, and pass and honours are mixed which is far from ideal. At the same time, every stream has home economics. Hardly a wonder women are under represented in areas like the sciences, engineering and technology in this country when so many schools seem more geared to turning girls into housewives and mammies. Unfortunately, historically part of the Catholic ethos was that a woman's place was in the home and this still lingers on more than you might think. If you've daughters like myself, figuring out what makes for the best education can be fraught.

It's a fair bit more nuanced though than that. For example according to this article in the Irish Times from 2013, the number of post-primary single-sex schools in Ireland is 34%. The majority then of Irish post-primary schools are co-ed schools, but as the article notes, while whether the school is single-sex or co-ed makes no difference to academic achievement, the quality of the education provided by schools can vary, and by quite a bit as it happens.

Roger touched on this (touched on it? He hit it with a frickin' sledgehammer :pac:) with the point that his decisions for the education of his children were based more on socioeconomic and demographic factors than religion or politics. While I have always appreciated your perspective and your experience of the ET model, eviltwin the same, and I think it's great that such a standard exists, that same standard of the ET model just isn't representative of what the ET model should be in the rest of the country. Nor would I suggest that the top religious ethos school is representative of the religious ethos model around the rest of the country either.

It's a mix of factors rather than one single factor really, and I would say it was just as frought for me to enrol my son in a school which I believed was in his best interests in giving him an education which would serve to further his development into adulthood and further prepare him to contribute to society. The under-representation of women in STEM is surely an unrelated issue entirely, particularly obvious when you visit the Young Scientist Exhibition every year, and by far the most popular and increasing year on year category is the social and behavioural sciences, skewed in favour and popularity of one gender (or biological sex even). It's not boys!

If my son were to turn round to me in the morning and say to me "Hey dad, I'm an atheist!", I'd simply remind him that I really don't give a... well, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I've always been more concerned about giving him the necessary education to be able to be gainfully employed and contribute to society rather than ever be dependent upon the State.

Roger Hassenforder

smacl wrote: »

In my older girls school for example forget engineering, woodwork, metalwork or applied maths. Getting a physics class for the leaving cert was very touch and go, and pass and honours are mixed which is far from ideal. At the same time, every stream has home economics. Hardly a wonder women are under represented in areas like the sciences, engineering and technology in this country when so many schools seem more geared to turning girls into housewives and mammies.

If you've daughters like myself, figuring out what makes for the best education can be fraught.

My girls (and boys) are still primary, I've a STEM background, so a lot of natural science / how things work etc influences around the house. I do a lot of cooking and baking with them all, but the girls seem drawn to it more than your man who just loves kicking bowls. While I agree not enough girls go into STEM, is this by choice I wonder sometimes.
I just want them to be happy and lead a reasonably fulfilling life. Wherever it goes!
Im more worried.about life.coping skills and assertiveness than whether they'll be good at maths.
Hard to know what the right answer is.

smacl

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

While I agree not enough girls go into STEM, is this by choice I wonder sometimes.

Yes and no. My older girls experience of an all girls secondary school is that the most popular optional subjects are home economics, art and biology. That means that if you're not into those subjects your choices are curtailed. I guess in an all boys school you'd have a similar effect but with different subjects. In a mixed school this will be less defined leaving choices more open.

I just want them to be happy and lead a reasonably fulfilling life. Wherever it goes!
Im more worried.about life.coping skills and assertiveness than whether they'll be good at maths.
Hard to know what the right answer is.

I think the ET secondary schools absolutely nail these criteria and are in a different league in this regard (anecdotally from a sample size of 1). The emphasis is very much on research and presentation as opposed to learning by rote. That said, no excuse not to be good at maths as well.

I don't think there is any single right answer per se, what is right for one kid may be wrong for another.

smacl

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If my son were to turn round to me in the morning and say to me "Hey dad, I'm an atheist!", I'd simply remind him that I really don't give a... well, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I've always been more concerned about giving him the necessary education to be able to be gainfully employed and contribute to society rather than ever be dependent upon the State.

My eldest did actually say to myself and her mother at one point 'Hey guys, I'm a Buddhist'. My outward response was to congratulate her, inwardly it was 'thank fcuk she didn't say Catholic' She's back to being an atheist and a vegetarian, which I can't really fault. From the article you linked, it seems pretty clear that boys do better in co-ed than single sex, and while I've no expertise in the matter, I firmly believe girls do to. Talking to my older girls boyfriend, his school (all boys) seems more than a bit 'Lord of the flies' by times and he hates it.

As for priorities for my kids, top of the list is happy. It's a short list. That's about it really. Getting there and staying there is a bit more involved, but you can only do so much.

Roger Hassenforder

smacl wrote: »

She's back to being... a vegetarian, which I can't really fault.
.

You have so failed your kids!!

yabbav

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

6 years ago we came to enroll our oldest, told them about the non-god thing from the get go & we had no issue.

Our 2nd started 2 years later & it's been the exact same experience.
The teachers allow our kids to get on with homework during religion class & that suits us fine as working parents, less to do at home.

Finally our youngest started this year & now there are 4 in his class not baptised & won't be taking communion.

Luckily we are a small town with a new school so they needed all the enrollments they could get to keep up teacher numbers.

The best thing has been the principal allowing us to take the kids out the week leading up their first communion where we go on a family holiday to Salou. As it's not high season flights & accommodation can be less than half the July cost & the temperatures are just perfect.

So a big shout out to jesus schools & the waste of a week before communion.
It's given us some of our best memories as a family.

Of course, those educate together schools are always rubbish anyway

smacl

yabbav wrote: »

Of course, those educate together schools are always rubbish anyway

How many have you had first hand experience with?

yabbav

None, I don't live in one of their areas

smacl

yabbav wrote: »

None, I don't live in one of their areas

So why are they rubbish?

smacl

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You have so failed your kids!!

Sure we'll all be eating soylent green before too long

Hotblack Desiato

yabbav wrote: »

None, I don't live in one of their areas

Well fcuk off then.

Hotblack Desiato

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

nope! they made their communions with the rest of their class. Some kids opted out all right, which I thought was a bit peculiar, as its a Catholic school.
I dont feel hypocritical as I'm not Catholic, but their mother is (but non church going!)

My reason is probably going to come across as very "racist/bigoted", but the local Educate Together seems to have a lot of non Irish national kids, seem to be a lot of parents whose certain very obvious values I wouldn't necessarily like my children being exposed to, or see their education suffering because a teacher is spending a lot of time explaining stuff to children who dont speak English.
I'd prefer if it was non-denom, but i'll take my chances with the Catholic education for a while, its a good school and my girls are happy, which to me is the important thing. as i said, the oldest has already copped the gig without any effort from me.

That's entirely your choice, although I don't know why you'd think it peculiar that non-catholic families would opt out of religion in a catholic school. What's peculiar is that our education and health systems are still dominated by churches and their interests rather than the interests of the taxpayers who fund them.

There are lots of non-Irish kids in the Church of Ireland school my kids go to*, nobody in this school sees this as a bad thing, our stagnant gene pool needed a stir ironically the children of african parentage often speak English at home, the white Poles or Latvians don't, but their kids cope easily with multiple languages and everyone gets on very well.

If it relied on "Irish" children only, this school would be closed down, if it relied on CoI children only it would be closed down by now too. It's the only non-RC school in the large Dublin suburb I live in, and it's the only mixed gender school too.

* both my wife and I were brought up RC, never believed in any of it, are atheists but (with good reason) reckoned that the local CoI school would be more tolerant of non-belief than the local RC schools. She grew up here and they were nasty in the 80s, whacking kids with a leather in religion class for asking a question.

Roger Hassenforder

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's entirely your choice, although I don't know why you'd think it peculiar that non-catholic families would opt out of religion in a catholic school. What's peculiar is that our education and health systems are still dominated by churches and their interests rather than the interests of the taxpayers who fund them.

There are lots of non-Irish kids in the Church of Ireland school my kids go to*, nobody in this school sees this as a bad thing, our stagnant gene pool needed a stir ironically the children of african parentage often speak English at home, the white Poles or Latvians don't, but their kids cope easily with multiple languages and everyone gets on very well.

If it relied on "Irish" children only, this school would be closed down, if it relied on CoI children only it would be closed down by now too. It's the only non-RC school in the large Dublin suburb I live in, and it's the only mixed gender school too.

* both my wife and I were brought up RC, never believed in any of it, are atheists but (with good reason) reckoned that the local CoI school would be more tolerant of non-belief than the local RC schools. She grew up here and they were nasty in the 80s, whacking kids with a leather in religion class for asking a question.

I suppose Im lucky in that I have a lot of choice re schools, something I appreciate a lot of parents don't. And with that choice, we've chosen, as have other parents, to send them to a Catholic school for many reasons. Their school, their rules. I don't have a problem with it.
If parents choose to send their kids to a Catholic school, when there is choice, I find it peculiar when they reject the Catholic aspects of it. Send your kids elsewhere if the Catholic aspect is an issue. I think the Catholic school is very accommodating, which is the point of this thread? Maybe the point is 'choice".
I as a Non-catholic, and my wife a nonpractising Catholic, chose a Catholic school in preference. And I suspect many others like us did.

(It's not the 'nonirishness' my issue was with, plenty of irish kids of nonirish parents in our school, it was a particular manifestation of a religion I had issues with)

smacl

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Their school, their rules. I don't have a problem with it.

Though most likely funded in part by my taxes, and almost entirely by the population's taxes. While no doubt many do prefer religious ethos schools and gender separation, many do not. As a society we are not asked by those who spend our money in providing education for our children about our preferences, yet it is something we agree on is so important that we are willing to put our own firmly held principles to one side to do best for our kids. I do have a problem with that.

If parents choose to send their kids to a Catholic school, when there is choice, I find it peculiar when they reject the Catholic aspects of it. Send your kids elsewhere if the Catholic aspect is an issue. I think the Catholic school is very accommodating, which is the point of this thread? Maybe the point is 'choice".

Why? Surely if we're talking about making the best choice for our kids sometimes it is still not the ideal choice. You rejected the ET school on the basis that it "seems to have a lot of non Irish national kids, seem to be a lot of parents whose certain very obvious values I wouldn't necessarily like my children being exposed to, or see their education suffering because a teacher is spending a lot of time explaining stuff to children who dont speak English." If on balance I preferred a Catholic ethos school for those reasons but didn't like the religious instruction, I'd opt my child out of religion as is my constitutional right. I'm a bit baffled that as an atheist you'd put your kids through communion unless you were planning on raising them as Catholic. Surely that's being disrespectful of others taking part who are genuinely religious and cynical in the extreme.

Re non-nationals, I enjoy the multicultural aspect of the ET my daughter goes to, as does she, and I think it is very healthy and broadens her education.

recedite

Galbin wrote: »

No idea. I don't know a town in my area without one though. Personally I would find a non-denominational school if there were only Jewish/Islam etc. schools in my area..

Correct answer is; there aren't any non-denominational state schools.
You are probably thinking of multi-denominational, or maybe not thinking at all....

smacl wrote: »

Re non-nationals, I enjoy the multicultural aspect...

I prefer the term "foreign nationals", because they do have a nationality. Just not the same one as you.

lazygal

We chose an ET school. We also have lots of choice. The 'best' school locally is the most Catholic and a gaelscoil with zero diversity so we ruled it out. Other schools are catholic but 'inclusive', I've heard very mixed reports from other parents about opting out and a different principal, dogmatic teacher or new parish priest seems to have caused hassle in more than one school for children who aren't catholic.
I had a 'good' experience in schools as a catholic child who went to catholic schools where we were indoctrinated. It's only now that we're raising our children in a more honest way than our parents did (our parents were total go along with the crowd a la carte catholics) I realised how damaging imposing religious practice is, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time.
I don't hold up the ET model as perfect either. There's far too much tolerance of religious crap, with various sky gods being talked about and none of the awful sides of religion discussed in any great depth. However, it does foster a more inclusive atmosphere and encourage a more child centred, independent sort of learning. I'd far prefer a non-denom school system though. I tolerate the learn together programme rather than laud it.

Roger Hassenforder

smacl wrote: »

I'm a bit baffled that as an atheist you'd put your kids through communion unless you were planning on raising them as Catholic. Surely that's being disrespectful of others taking part who are genuinely religious and cynical in the extreme

because its meaningless (to me)
I'm not planning on raising them anything, and I'm certainly not going to shove my beliefs (or lack thereof) down their throats. this has shown to cause problems since religion first made an appearance. Maybe you're ok with opting them out of religion because of your beliefs (or lack thereof), but can you see how someone might see a double standard?

They'll find their own way in life. If they want to be Catholic, leave them off. if they want to be Hindu, grand. I dont have the answers. I'm merely floating along in the river of life!

it would be disrespectful for me to tell the other parents its meaningless, or to impose my views on them, or to tell someone else they're wrong.

looksee

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

it would be disrespectful for me to tell the other parents its meaningless, or to impose my views on them, or to tell someone else they're wrong.

But you are happy to accept that others will tell you and tell your children that you are are all wrong, and will happily impose their views, with government sanction, on your children at a vulnerable age? This in the same environment where they teach factual material, and are willing to emphasise the importance of the doctrine they are teaching by suggesting divine retribution for non-believers.

Maybe not in the school you are fortunate to have locally, but other parents are not so lucky. Until it is a genuine option to have a Catholic education, rather than the default, this needs to continue to be argued.

Roger Hassenforder

looksee wrote: »

But you are happy to accept that others will tell you and tell your children that you are are all wrong, and will happily impose their views, with government sanction, on your children at a vulnerable age? This in the same environment where they teach factual material, and are willing to emphasise the importance of the doctrine they are teaching by suggesting divine retribution for non-believers.

Maybe not in the school you are fortunate to have locally, but other parents are not so lucky. Until it is a genuine option to have a Catholic education, rather than the default, this needs to continue to be argued.

maybe that's my problem, I'm having it exactly the way I want it!

I'd be fairly annoyed if the shoe was on the other foot, having a Catholic doctrine shoved down my kids' throats with no say in the matter. Maybe then I might be a bit more exercised about the matter.
But at the same time, I still find it peculiar that someone chooses to send their kid to a Catholic school, with an ET very close, but opts out the crap religious bit*. In fairness to the school, they're being rather accommodating, which is the point of this thread.

(*I suppose they could say they're having it the way they want it!)