How has the 8th amendment affected your care?

PhoenixParker

Simple question really, outside of abortion how has the 8th amendment affected the care you've received when pregnant in an Irish hospital?

My own story.
I had a missed miscarriage two years ago.
Went into the hospital for my 12 week scan and there was nothing there.

I remember so clearly the technician asking, "are you syre of your dates,"
I was and said so but she asked three times and there was a tone and urgency to her voice that simply didn't fit. I'm retrospect I realised that was the 8th amendment. The pregnancy was clearly over but any treatment plan rested firmly on how well that could be documented, no matter my feelings or needs.

The day proceeded with cups of tea, blood draws and doctors with concerned faces. The blood draws revealed the possibility of a partial molar pregnancy and treatment plans became clear and urgent but I'm left feeling almost lucky that they found such a serious issue so that everything was clear cut. It's a very uncomfortable, discomfiting feeling.

jadie

I'm very sorry to hear about your miscarriage and subsequent hospital experience. I'm glad you have brought it to our attention here. Since I've become pregnant I've read a lot about the 8th amendment in particular with regards to women's choices and consent in pregnancy. I find the AIMs website brilliant. I'm adament myself about particular birth choices. Time will tell I suppose whether the 8th will effect my pregnancy but I think it already has in some ways too. As a public patient I feel less in control too. After reading up about the GD test and having no risk factors I have decided not to get it done for now. I will monitor my own blood sugar as indicated.Again the AIMs website was informative here compared to just being told by the midwife

lazygal

I was pregnant shortly after Savita died and I was mildly terrified of being the next Savita. Knowing that in law you're equal to a foetus when you know the difference between what's inside you and the child you have at home is not very comforting.
I attended Holles Street for both pregnancies. I remember not being told anything about the options if a scan showed up anything unusual or being informed of how my consent wouldn't be required for procedures. I don't know any hospital that advises any pregnant women that the HSE consent policy doesn't cover them.
A friend of mine was told by her consultant he was the voice for her baby even if no one else was when she queried his decision on a procedure. She had a homebirth the next time.

LirW

It affected me in a "positive" way. My baby was breech and they left it until very late to decide what way to go in regards of birth. I have one at home already and decided I won't bother with trying to get the baby turned around. I was very adamant about that I wanted a C-section since the thought of uncertainty stressed me out a lot. In the end I was sent to the hospital, told the consultant (was public patient) what I wanted and explained my reasons, she made a call and I had my date. Nobody, not even the midwives tried to talk me into trying for getting her to turn once I made my position clear and it was a huge weight off my chest.
In the end I went into labour and had an emergency section.

I'm in favour of repealing the 8th because I've seen a lot of women during the course of my own pregnancy in Ireland that were affected by it in some way and they were miserable.

mrsmags16

Had to pay for chromosomal testing etc which is available to all on the NHS.
Most people here don't even know it exists. I had the Panorama done and it was about 300 quid but I dread to think how I would have been affected if I'd been diagnosed with fatal fetal abnormality...let's just say I would be a seriously unhappy taxpayer.

shesty

lazygal wrote: »

I attended Holles Street for both pregnancies. I remember not being told anything about the options if a scan showed up anything unusual or being informed of how my consent wouldn't be required for procedures..

I imagine they don"t tell you your options unless the scan actually does show abnormalities, as I've had a similar experience.But were you told your consent wouldn't be required for procedures?That's very odd.I remember on my first that I put in my birth plan (which was a very short reasonable document otherwise) that I wanted to be informed (where medically possible) of any procedures to be done, be they C-section, ventouse, episiotomy etc, and the staff who read it got quite offended that I thought they would do something to me without at least telling me first or asking was I ok with it.
I just felt I had heard so many stories and at the end of the day this was my body, and my baby, something which you can feel gets a bit lost in the medical nature of maternity hospitals.That said I can't fault them, they were excellent.

lazygal

The HSE consent policy specifically states it doesn't apply to pregnant people. I consented to some treatment and declined others, but that policy has been used to force women into procedures including c sections. No hospital I know tells anyone when you're pregnant your right to consent is affected.

rainbow kirby

mrsmags16 wrote: »

Had to pay for chromosomal testing etc which is available to all on the NHS.
Most people here don't even know it exists. I had the Panorama done and it was about 300 quid but I dread to think how I would have been affected if I'd been diagnosed with fatal fetal abnormality...let's just say I would be a seriously unhappy taxpayer.

Panorama (or other types of NIPT) test isn't generally covered on the NHS - some trusts are starting to offer it to women with certain risk factors but for me (low risk, under 35) it would have had to be done privately.

We get the nuchal translucency measurement and quad blood test at the 12 week scan, further screening is offered if indicated from there. The prenatal screening booklet I got both times is very matter of fact about TFMR being an option in the worst cases, which is a seachange from the "nudge nudge, wink wink" approach in Ireland.

Neyite

On my MMC, I was refused a scan.

On the next MC, when I began to bleed, the EPU would only give me an appointment 8 days after that. Not because they were over run, or short staffed, but because and I quote: "well by that stage, you'll have either stopped bleeding or you'll have passed everything and then we'll know one way or the other"

I was refused a progesterone pessary prescription. This is standard for all women in Poland for example if you've miscarried even one. Three is the magic number here in Ireland.

After I miscarried #3, I was supposed to be given that pessary prescription to activate when I got pregnant the next time. I discovered that on #4 when the midwife read my notes and said "oh, you're on progesterone?" Eh, no. Someone forgot to send it out, and I never knew that I had been prescribed it.

The EPU in the biggest hospital in the west of Ireland didn't have a form for pathology to do tissue testing on the products of conception. They didn't run out of them, they just don't do it. It gets done by the surgical department if you get a D&C, but otherwise, it's not a service they provide. Found that one out after #4.

I got very non-committal and hands-off care up until the point of viability. After that, they were excellent. Really brilliant. I feel incredibly sorry for the medics who have to work under the 8th. It cannot be easy to know that your counterparts in another country can and do provide aspects of care that you aren't allowed to.

I know that with a miscarriage, it is very often a wait-and-see scenario. I get that they work off statistics and that's why you only get investigations done after #3. I know that once the bleeding starts, very little can be done. I know that. But I also know that in other countries they try to find out what's wrong. They try to give you hormonal supplements that might help. They offer you tests to see if there is a condition that you might have. Here you have to beg and plead and demand. And you still get fobbed off half the time, or they just refuse.

Toastytoes

Neyite wrote: »

On my MMC, I was refused a scan.

On the next MC, when I began to bleed, the EPU would only give me an appointment 8 days after that. Not because they were over run, or short staffed, but because and I quote: "well by that stage, you'll have either stopped bleeding or you'll have passed everything and then we'll know one way or the other"

I was refused a progesterone pessary prescription. This is standard for all women in Poland for example if you've miscarried even one. Three is the magic number here in Ireland.

After I miscarried #3, I was supposed to be given that pessary prescription to activate when I got pregnant the next time. I discovered that on #4 when the midwife read my notes and said "oh, you're on progesterone?" Eh, no. Someone forgot to send it out, and I never knew that I had been prescribed it.

I had to pay a consultant €150 to prescribe progesterone for me because my gp refused to, even tho my blood work confirmed my levels were below normal.

I also got the “go home and test in two weeks” response from the same west of Ireland hospital you’re referring to above on my first mc.

Early pregnancy services in Ireland are shocking, I don’t know if that’s 8th related or just our health system. But whatever is the reason, it’s a very worrying place to be when you need the service and it’s not available.

Neyite

It's very much a 'wait and see' approach to miscarriage here in Ireland.

I get that. I understand that 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. I understand that statistically, women often experience one or two prior to carrying to term. I do understand that in most cases, those are just 'one of those things' and that those women go on to happy and healthy pregnancies.

My last MC was a couple of years ago. I can view my experiences quite dispassionately now. I can look at it from a cost-saving and clinical point of view and I do understand that often the tests /scans /treatment we come looking for when we begin to bleed is useless. The process has begun and you have to ride it out and emerge the other side with either a pregnancy or not.

I wonder sometimes if I'd been given progesterone before any of my mc, would I be a mother of more than one now. I feel that I would,but that could just be wishful thinking too. But I do firmly believe that irrespective of the outcome, the care I would have got in the EPU if the 8th was not there would have been very different. And I'm not sure I will ever be ok with that.

I'm very grateful to have my son. I count my blessings with the family I have and my hospital as I said before gave me excellent care once it appeared to be a sustainable pregnancy. The ante-natal unit were brilliant. The EPU, well, I'm really at a loss as to what they actually do. They don't actively manage miscarriage. They are reluctant to investigate miscarriage. They are reluctant to offer testing, pathology, investigations, medications or treatments. They kind of avoid dealing with any kind of bleed until a certain amount of time has passed. They obviously don't do terminations. So what does an EPU do?

shesty

I'm in Dublin as I've posted before and I have experience on the EPU in the Rotunda.They seem to manage the miscarriage here.They scan if you have a bleed and it is generally a 7-10 day wait before they will do the scan.They will tell you here that yes they could scan you when you come in, but if all looks ok they can't actually tell you what's going on until they have left it 7-10 days and they will then either see definite growth, or not, because it's so early.And decisions will be made then.They do the scan there, check everything and a lovely midwife then takes you to a separate room and goes through your options with you (and provides a box of tissues.seriously.)They monitor for the next few weeks, you go in for bloods etc.

The absolute lack of a joined up approach across the country to maternity care is quite scarey (to me).We are small country and really every hospital should be providing the same maternity services.I appreciate some are smaller than others but there are basic things that should be provided as standard like 20week scans, a defined number of scans during your pregnancy and a joint approach to miscarraige, EPUs etc. I can't understand why we cannot manage this.

Loveinapril

Shesty, you are so right about standardising care. I miscarried my first pregnancy last year. I started bleeding at 5 weeks 6 days. I wasn't attached to any hospital so phoned Holles Street. I was told that they "couldn't do anything about it" and to take a pregnancy test in 2 weeks and if I was still pregnant, give them a ring. I immediately rang the Rotunda who had me in for a scan the next day. They were unsure of the viability at that point so booked me in for a scan 10 days later but I miscarried the day before the scan. They then booked me in for a scan ten days after that to ensure everything had passed so no need for medical intervention. They were amazing. I am currently 37 weeks pregnant with my first baby (second pregnancy, first baby- I heard that phrase in the Rotunda and liked it) and have continued my care in the Rotunda. A friend had a similar experience in Holles Street during a miscarriage. I just cannot believe the standard of care is so different in two hospitals a few minutes away from each other.

pwurple

I too have miscarried, and the service is appalling, I completely agree there. I have written complaints to HSE and the hospital involved. I continue to maintain that involvement, and attend meetings with others who also experienced miscarriage , and the hospital to push for improvements and follow up on it.

But how is that linked to the 8th amendment? Because in those 6 years of following up, numerous discussions with clinicians and administrators, I have never heard it mentioned as having an impact. Funding, approach and organisational problems have come up, but not that. Have I missed something I need to ask?

I also agree the 8th should be revoked btw. It makes so logical sense for a grown woman to have the same rights in law as a foetus. There is clearly a conflict there.

Neyite, why is the 8th inhibiting the early pregnancy units improving? In my head, the existance of the 8th should not prevent early units coming up to standard, with better investigations and early stages care. I don’t get the link, it’s clearly better for outcomes for both to have it in place. If anything the 8th should be another argument for improvement there.

How do you think the care plan would have been different PhoenixParker? In my case they asked repeatedly about the dates as well. I remember getting annoyed, so I asked them why and showed them my tracker application, and a photo I had taken of the pregnancy test that I had sent my husband. They told me It was because the foetus had stopped developing weeks earlier, so the number of weeks of pregnancy did not match the development stage of the embryo. For my treatment plan, I was offered medication to induce, an EPRC (d&c) or the option to wait.

cbyrd

I was left with a badly damaged left leg and my daughter almost died in birth from being put in the gestational diabetes category without proper justification.
A bullied mandatory induction (despite my protestations) that was mismanaged and a general lack of care for me. It was all about a healthy baby. I'm all for that if it's necessary but almost killing her and leaving me with lifetime injuries is just wrong.

We had a developmental meeting for her last week where we were told that a few more minutes delay in getting her out would have left her with severe cerebral palsy or dead. I suffered post traumatic stress and needed a lot of counselling when I got pregnant again. I had tried to bury the impact her birth had on me, but I suffered flashbacks and started having panic attacks.
Not one word from the hospital afterwards. Not one. No explanation as to why her birth was induced on that particular day despite being told I wouldn't be induced as previous births had been overdue.
My experience was horrendous.
If it was any other medical issue I would have to consent to more than knowing the risks of a section. While not being able to comprehend what was going on.
I still have great difficulty talking about her birth.

muminpajamas

Cbyrd, have you thought about having your medical records reviewed by an independent third party? Sorry to hear you have suffered so much.

shesty

Some of these posts are saying a lot more about how we view pregnancy and childbirth as a medical entity in this country than anything else. And also the complete disparity in how different hospitals approach pregnancy and childbirth.I have heard even Holles st and the Rotund have very different approaches to 'managing' labour and birth.It makes me feel so awful for the many women who have suffered at the hands of the system in some way, when who knows, they could have had a great experience a couple of counties over.It is really so wrong.

tea_and_cake

shesty wrote: »

Some of these posts are saying a lot more about how we view pregnancy and childbirth as a medical entity in this country than anything else. And also the complete disparity in how different hospitals approach pregnancy and childbirth.I have heard even Holles st and the Rotund have very different approaches to 'managing' labour and birth.It makes me feel so awful for the many women who have suffered at the hands of the system in some way, when who knows, they could have had a great experience a couple of counties over.It is really so wrong.

It really is scary the differences. Question does this have more to do with our our poor health care system and not the 8th ammendment? I wonder how much will change if and when it's removed.

rainbow kirby

There has always been a very paternalistic approach to maternity care in Ireland - it's always about what The Man (whether that's the consultant, hospital policy in general etc) wants rather than what actually works for women, active management of labour is a case in point there. The original push for the 8th amendment came from a mixture of that sort of mindset and a certain sector of the population clutching its pearls at the growing liberalisation of abortion law in the UK, US and Europe in the 1960s and 1970s.

If the 8th is repealed it can no longer be used as a blunt instrument to force women to comply with hospital demands - the Mother B case (bringing a woman to court on her due date because she wanted to try for a VBA3C) would probably have been thrown out earlier than the High Court, it would also help to reduce the rate of legal bullying to force induction etc.

shesty

I think the 8th may have affected how EPUs kind of evolved and the attitude of the hospitals to early pregnancy maybe?I don't know, i am not sure how much the 8th is actually at play unless you are in a situation that is directly affected by it, such as (much as I hate the phrase) fatal fetal anomaly diagnosis, or situations such as Savita Halappanavar's.

And yes, it's a very paternalistic approach to pregnancy and childbirth, I can only imagine that stems from the heavy influence of the church and all that it entailed in the original setting up of the hospitals and health services.

PhoenixParker

The 8th is totally at play in any miscarriage situation. The hospitals don’t talk about it but it is, it has to be, and it’s the root cause for the terrible early pregnancy care. There’s no point improving epus with the 8th amendment in play, who would want to work in the area when you’ll run up against it at every turn.

3° The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

Now think about it from the point of view of a doctor with a woman in front of them. Simple but common scenario, she’s seven weeks pregnant but bleeding. she tests positive, the hcg numbers are maybe slightly increasing but not where you’d expect or going up fast enough. She’s just done and wants this over with. Nothing an Irish doctor can do. There’s a 0.5% that there’s a viable pregnancy there and it has the same right to life as the mother, unless she’s dying, she and the doctor are outta luck.

In my case my dates and the record of them were so important because it meant the pregnancy had 100% definitely failed and they could document that completely. Otherwise whatever my knowledge of my own pregnancy or feelings on it, maybe that little embryo that measured five weeks might spark a heartbeat next week.

grind gremlin

The 8th amendment made a very tough experience much more difficult in my situation.
In 2014 I had 3 miscarriages.on my second, I was using ovulation kits and was 100% clear on my dates. After my first loss I decided to pay for a private early scan. At that point I should have been 9+ weeks. Scan showed bub measure 6 weeks 2 days but without a heartbeat. I got a letter from them and faxed it to the epau in the Coombe.
They contacted me and I had a scan with them 2 days later (on a fri). Measurements were slightly smaller than the previous scan. I thought at this point that a miscarriage would be confirmed and I would be given tablets to bring on a mc..... not so in Ireland.... instead... because of the 8th... I was told I would have to wait another week for a follow up scan to 'confirm' the miscarriage. I absolutely fell apart. I'd already spent 3 days crying over this loss and now I was being sent home for another week.
Following week I arrived for a follow up scan. Miscarriage confirmed but as it was Friday, the earlier appointments for a d and c the following week were all gone. I was scheduled for surgery mid week. 2 weeks after I was first told there was no heartbeat.
My body finally realised what had happened and I miscarried naturally the night before my scheduled d and c.
The 8th ammendment needs to be repealed, not replaced. I would hate for anyone else to have to be in my position.

Neyite

pwurple wrote: »

Neyite, why is the 8th inhibiting the early pregnancy units improving? In my head, the existance of the 8th should not prevent early units coming up to standard, with better investigations and early stages care. I don’t get the link, it’s clearly better for outcomes for both to have it in place. If anything the 8th should be another argument for improvement there.

I'm not sure if I can explain it correctly but I'll try. It felt like the hospital have a 'do nothing' policy for miscarriage management. Very much a hands off policy. They want to avoid any potential partial management of miscarriage because they fear that offering even that would lead to more women asking for any procedure or treatment that is covered by the 8th. If they offer tissue testing for chromosomal issues for example, then it's a matter of time before one of those patients returns to request an early termination because they know they are likely to carry a child with a chromosomal disorder. By not offering this, by letting a couple go undiagnosed until halfway through the pregnancy when they then find out, the parents are invested then and it also means that the more palatable options of termination, such as pills are not an option so the hospital are not under pressure to prescribe them.

I asked in my appointment when I eventually got it, if I needed to be worried about infection. (this was early 2013 and only about 3 or 4 months after Savita died in that very hospital) The doctor told me "just keep an eye on it" when I asked for clarification she told me to "keep an eye out for a foul odour or discharge" and to come in if that happened. I asked if that foul odour meant I'd be septicaemic, she said yes. Frankly, by the time a woman can smell septicaemia coming from her vagina, you are talking multiple organ failure. To say that to a miscarrying woman given the news headlines at the time was appalling.

I would agree with you - I really thought that the 8th meant that the hospital would fight for my pregnancies to survive as much as I did. I thought they would try everything to save me miscarrying. So it was very much a shock to find out otherwise. I'd love to say that it was just the wrong person on the wrong day, but given I've had 4 miscarriages, and under that hospital each time, the only consistency for each incident was the apathy and unwillingness to have anything to do with my miscarriages.

pwurple

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Now think about it from the point of view of a doctor with a woman in front of them. Simple but common scenario, she’s seven weeks pregnant but bleeding. she tests positive, the hcg numbers are maybe slightly increasing but not where you’d expect or going up fast enough. She’s just done and wants this over with. Nothing an Irish doctor can do. There’s a 0.5% that there’s a viable pregnancy there and it has the same right to life as the mother, unless she’s dying, she and the doctor are outta luck.

I don’t know.... You think they deliberately under resource a unit just in case they are asked for an abortion and can’t provide it? Is that not disingenuous?

The general mismanagement of areas of the health service, lack of qualified personnel available, lack of resources and long waiting lists have nothing to do with it... it’s just the midwives, sonographers and doctors don’t want an awkward question to answer?

I’m afraid that doesn’t fit with my own experience, where I have seen and spoken to the professionals trying their damnedest to get the clinics staffed and back open for longer hours so they can see women for more scans, faster turn around on ERPC / d&c etc. Also, I saw a dramatic fall off in services in the EPU, in number of scans, waiting times, clinic opening hours between 2011 and 2015. Those coincided with funding reductions and changes in management structure, not any change to the 8th amendment during that time. Scans were reduced by 2/3rds.

I personally think any woman with a threatened, incomplete or missed miscarriage should have to option of being admitted or some follow up done to check they have a family member or next of kin with them who can keep an eye on their temperature, due to the risk of sepsis. From memory (sorry, Bit zonked, but there is a hse sepsis report available online)... Pregnancy related sepsis increased by something like 36% from 2011 to 2016. Up to over 300 cases a year here.

I was sent home, alone, to tell my husband what happened, and asked to come back in a week and decide what I wanted. In there somewhere they probably told me to watch out for a temperature, but I certainly didn’t take it in when I’d just realised what was happening. I certainly never conveyed it to him.


Honestly, I really think healthcare workers can and will answer every and any awkward question you can throw at them, and wouldn’t bat an eyelid, if it meant they could improve the service. That’s a training procedure and it’s covered.

pwurple

Just on the hands-off approach, my own experience was the opposite in CUMH. Yes, I felt I was on this conveyor belt of no choice too, but being pushed into procedures. I had to ask if I could avoid the ERPC and the pill and let my body deal with it without active management.

The risks with a D&C are perforated uterus (which happened my mum), weakened cervix (which increases further miscarriage risk) etc, so I was terrified of it.

Sepsis again was not mentioned to me then... I think there was an under-awareness of sepsis in the HSE. Appalling to see it continues.

lashes34

I don't know if my experience was different as I had a suspected ectopic but I went into Ballinasloe at 6 weeks with a bleed. Went into A&E and was examined, they didn't scan me, just done an internal exam. I was told it was likely an ectopic pregnancy and that I would either need surgery the next day (so no water or food from then on, 7pm) or if not too big I would be given a tablet to pass it (I assume similar to abortion pills). They refused to scan me as I was only 6 weeks and it was too early to pick up on the ultrasound, that I would need an internal scan the next morning and would be scanned at 9am. They then left me on a trolley overnight thinking tomorrow it would be all over.

Next day they brought gave me an injection for sickness, I had to ask was it ok to take if the pregnancy was viable as nothing was confirmed and the nurse didn't know so had to go check. Really felt like they were dealing with a confirmed ectopic when it wasn't at that stage.

They scanned me at 3pm and all was ok, pregnancy where it should be and I had a large ovarian cyst that caused the pain and bleeding. They also said it was a possible twin ectopic so I had to come back in a week to get re-scanned when the pregnancy would be bigger if that's what it was. Turns out it was a cyst and I am now nearly 34 weeks pregnant.

I don't even know if this is relevant, just feel early pregnancy care wasn't up to what I would have expected.

I am due to give birth in UCHG but went to Ballinasloe at the time of the bleed as we live half way between the hospitals but my husband was working in Ballinasloe so wanted him nearby. I don't know if the care would have been different in UCHG but the 8th amendment does scare me in that my life doesn't seem important in this pregnancy.

Lemonposset

I can completely empathise with the posters in this forum, I have had 2 miscarriages myself. I don't think l could blame the 8th for any poor management I got.

The health system in this country is shockingly bad and all areas are underfunded, not just maternity services. When I was pregnant I had a scan that probably showed a non-viable pregnancy. Even if I had wanted to I wouldn't have had an operation that day unless it was threatening my life because there just isn't the capacity in the system. There's very few medical conditions for which you can get same day treatment after diagnosis. That's not to say this is right, but it's not anything to do with the 8th.

Also, as sure as you might be about your dates, it's entirely possible to be wrong. Maybe you ovulated but conception didn't occur for 2 days after, and implantation took longer again. You may know when you ovulated but the sac may not be growing by your dates. It would be irresponsible not to offer a second scan a week later to make sure. This is the norm in the UK where abortion is available so I don't think repealing the 8th would change this practice either. And I know how crap it is to wait that extra week, half hopeful, half terrified, and to try get on with things as best you can. I've done it, twice. But the 8th wasn't the reason for that wait.

I completely support the repeal of the 8th by the way but some of the examples given here will still occur if and when the 8th is hopefully gone.

Neyite

You are right that the system is creaking in general Lemon, not just maternity or ante-natal services. And I think a lot that related to my experiences also came down to a lack of resources and funding - but I will still maintain that there were certain aspects of the care that were heavily influenced by the legislation surrounding the 8th. There are simply certain procedures, tests and medications (out-with of termination) that are routinely offered in UK and European hospitals that are just not offered as standard in Ireland, and even if you ask for them you are not given them. You are just told that they don't do that here. No reason other than an unwillingness to clinically manage any pregnancy loss, potential loss or threatened loss. And I can only assume that is down to an amendment that makes it a legally grey area for doctors to work in so they do their best to avoid it altogether.

missjuly

shesty wrote: »

I'm in Dublin as I've posted before and I have experience on the EPU in the Rotunda.They seem to manage the miscarriage here.They scan if you have a bleed and it is generally a 7-10 day wait before they will do the scan.They will tell you here that yes they could scan you when you come in, but if all looks ok they can't actually tell you what's going on until they have left it 7-10 days and they will then either see definite growth, or not, because it's so early.And decisions will be made then.They do the scan there, check everything and a lovely midwife then takes you to a separate room and goes through your options with you (and provides a box of tissues.seriously.)They monitor for the next few weeks, you go in for bloods etc.

The absolute lack of a joined up approach across the country to maternity care is quite scarey (to me).We are small country and really every hospital should be providing the same maternity services.I appreciate some are smaller than others but there are basic things that should be provided as standard like 20week scans, a defined number of scans during your pregnancy and a joint approach to miscarraige, EPUs etc. I can't understand why we cannot manage this.

I agree the Rotunda handled my miscarriage as well as possible really. I had bleeding and rang the epu but it was out of hours so I then rang the emergency department the told me to come straight in. They scanned me and the doctor wanted to get a second opinion. But I got very upset as I started passing huge clots and knew myself it was a miscarriage and just wanted to go home by that stage the two doctors calmed me down and were so supportive and scanned me again took my bloods. Had to get bloods again and it was confirmed miscarriage. The epu also contacted me back and I found them all very supportive. When I got pregnant again they brought me know for an early scan in epu at 9 weeks which was very reassuring.

But to be honest I have heard of shocking stories from other hospitals and would not go near certain hospitals. I think the variation of maternity care needs to changed and some of the regional hospitals need to be greatly improved

Toastytoes

missjuly wrote: »

I agree the Rotunda handled my miscarriage as well as possible really. I had bleeding and rang the epu but it was out of hours so I then rang the emergency department the told me to come straight in. They scanned me and the doctor wanted to get a second opinion. But I got very upset as I started passing huge clots and knew myself it was a miscarriage and just wanted to go home by that stage the two doctors calmed me down and were so supportive and scanned me again took my bloods. Had to get bloods again and it was confirmed miscarriage. The epu also contacted me back and I found them all very supportive. When I got pregnant again they brought me know for an early scan in epu at 9 weeks which was very reassuring.

But to be honest I have heard of shocking stories from other hospitals and would not go near certain hospitals. I think the variation of maternity care needs to changed and some of the regional hospitals need to be greatly improved

That is a world away from the level of care you could expect if you ended up in UCHG in the same situation. You would have been sent home without a scan.

shesty

It's unbelievable toastytoes, I'm reading some of the posts here and so glad the Rotunda is my nearest maternity hospital.Particularly the story about Ballinasloe, and no scans for a potential ectopic, that's scarey.I have had bleeds on all mine, gone straight into Rotunda ER where they scan on the spot (internal if necessary) and refer you on to EPU about 7-10 days later.But at least they can see the basics on the ER scanner and tell if there is a pregnancy there or not, and if not I'd imagine they would act very fast.I can't believe someone would be left overnight to wait for internal scan with nothing done, even though they are talking about an ectopic pregnancy.I was in the Rotunda again at the weekend due to a bleed, and the care is miles away from some of the experiences being described here, even if they are understaffed and you do have to wait a while.

How much that actually has to do with the 8th, I don't know but I'm beginning to wonder if we need to shout a lot louder about basic standardisation of care across the country.

scarepanda

Shesty, in my experience with ballinasloe, albeit a gyne issue (but your dealing with the same staff and department), the care I received was atrocious, to the point that when it came to deciding where to have my LO i travelled 50 minutes to go to Mullingar rather than the 10 minutes into portiuncla. I just couldn't trust them in portiuncla.

lashes34

Being pregnant has really opened my eyes to the 8th amendment. Going back years I was pro-life, thought it was just about abortion but the last few years I have realised if there was a referendum that I would vote for repealing the 8th as in its not my choice what others do with their bodies.

Since I got pregnant, I realise how wrong the whole thing is. Pregnancy is tough and to be forced to go through it against your wishes is horrendous. I tried for years to get pregnant and had 4 rounds of fertility treatment and while I am very happy to have this baby on the way, I am struggling with pregnancy. To be going through this when its not what you want must be torture.

The sooner the 8th amendment is gone, the better in my eyes.

shesty

scarepanda wrote: »

Shesty, in my experience with ballinasloe, albeit a gyne issue (but your dealing with the same staff and department), the care I received was atrocious, to the point that when it came to deciding where to have my LO i travelled 50 minutes to go to Mullingar rather than the 10 minutes into portiuncla. I just couldn't trust them in portiuncla.

Which would make me question why they have a maternity unit there at all then.....

rainbow kirby

shesty wrote: »

How much that actually has to do with the 8th, I don't know but I'm beginning to wonder if we need to shout a lot louder about basic standardisation of care across the country.

Check out the AIMS Ireland FB page - this is a big part of what they campaign for.

PhoenixParker

shesty wrote: »

Which would make me question why they have a maternity unit there at all then.....

Look what happened when they tried to close Monaghan.

A small unit delivering few babies in a relatively remote area will find it difficult to attract quality high level staff.
Delivering few babies and anything complicated being referred elsewhere means your mid level staff get de-skilled. Maintaining training levels is difficult because you have to cover few staff members but they're all working shifts at different times. You only need one piece of each equipment so if it breaks there's no redundancy and you're low priority for fixes.

Medically speaking they're a nightmare but politically speaking there a bigger nightmare to close.

scarepanda

shesty wrote:

Which would make me question why they have a maternity unit there at all then.....

I suppose ballinasloe has a massive catchment area. From ballinasloe east to west Mullingar and Galway are both an hour away, and it's not any better North to South.

All of my friends have had babies there and no one has had any major complaints about the place, that I know of, although most don't have any other option other than ballinasloe. However, in my opinion the care some received was substandard, but if you don't know any different you've nothing to compare it with. The only thing that ballinasloe does that Mullingar doesn't that I wish they did is that you get scanned at every or most appointments. In Mullingar you only get scanned if the Dr has a reason to (in my case the last two appointments to measure babys size).

shesty

Which really goes back to the overall thing of how badly the health system is set up.I can understand why people wouldn't want to lose a local hospital but honestly, they are basically saying they'd prefer to risk the lives of people (be they mothers, babies, whatever) with more serious conditions being mismanaged or missed completely, rather than accept that it is not viable to keep the smaller hospital open, that maybe a large 24/7 clinic to deal with minor matters and a proper community health system in it, would be the better option.

Sorry.The engineer in me gets deeply, deeply frustrated at the whole shambles of a system (not just health) when there ARE so many ways it could be fixed.All require money obviously but jeez, invest the money once, properly, and you save yourself millions in the following years.All stopped by apparent ignorance and petty rows over local 'fiefdoms' essentially.

Anyway.Back on topic.

rainbow kirby

A proper community midwifery system would save a bloody fortune.

I'm on #2 in the UK and low risk women see community midwives for the overwhelming majority of our care - I've literally only had to go to the hospital this time for the 12 and 20 week scans because all my midwife appointments have been in a clinic room in the local children's centre. I've seen the same midwife for all my appointments this time (along with half of them last time) and she's been really helpful, answered all my questions, given me work-friendly appointment times (9am every time works very well for me so I can drop my son to nursery first) and there's always a full 30 minute slot open.

There's no reason why women should have to be treated like they're in a cattle mart at hospital every few weeks when a community midwifery team could be seeing all the low risk women in community settings (this even involves home visits in rural areas) and doing a decent chunk of the medium risk basic antenatal care too.

Wesser

grind gremlin wrote: »

The 8th amendment made a very tough experience much more difficult in my situation.
In 2014 I had 3 miscarriages.on my second, I was using ovulation kits and was 100% clear on my dates. After my first loss I decided to pay for a private early scan. At that point I should have been 9+ weeks. Scan showed bub measure 6 weeks 2 days but without a heartbeat. I got a letter from them and faxed it to the epau in the Coombe.
They contacted me and I had a scan with them 2 days later (on a fri). Measurements were slightly smaller than the previous scan. I thought at this point that a miscarriage would be confirmed and I would be given tablets to bring on a mc..... not so in Ireland.... instead... because of the 8th... I was told I would have to wait another week for a follow up scan to 'confirm' the miscarriage. I absolutely fell apart. I'd already spent 3 days crying over this loss and now I was being sent home for another week.
Following week I arrived for a follow up scan. Miscarriage confirmed but as it was Friday, the earlier appointments for a d and c the following week were all gone. I was scheduled for surgery mid week. 2 weeks after I was first told there was no heartbeat.
My body finally realised what had happened and I miscarried naturally the night before my scheduled d and c.
The 8th ammendment needs to be repealed, not replaced. I would hate for anyone else to have to be in my position.

Are you sure that this triple checking is due to the 8th amendment? And not due to the miscarriage misdiagnosis scandal?
I know that midwives and doctors have to be 100% sure before they can book a D n C under HSE policy that emerged after that scandal.

ANXIOUS

Wesser wrote: »

Are you sure that this triple checking is due to the 8th amendment? And not due to the miscarriage misdiagnosis scandal?
I know that midwives and doctors have to be 100% sure before they can book a D n C under HSE policy that emerged after that scandal.

Everything is caused by the 8th amendment, have you not read the memo?

shesty

rainbow kirby wrote: »

A proper community midwifery system would save a bloody fortune.

I'm on #2 in the UK and low risk women see community midwives for the overwhelming majority of our care - I've literally only had to go to the hospital this time for the 12 and 20 week scans because all my midwife appointments have been in a clinic room in the local children's centre. I've seen the same midwife for all my appointments this time (along with half of them last time) and she's been really helpful, answered all my questions, given me work-friendly appointment times (9am every time works very well for me so I can drop my son to nursery first) and there's always a full 30 minute slot open.

There's no reason why women should have to be treated like they're in a cattle mart at hospital every few weeks when a community midwifery team could be seeing all the low risk women in community settings (this even involves home visits in rural areas) and doing a decent chunk of the medium risk basic antenatal care too.

But that would mean taking maternity out of the clinical setting and accepting that it's nature and not a medical procedure.......(obviously I mean within reason).

Cakerbaker

rainbow kirby wrote: »

A proper community midwifery system would save a bloody fortune.

I'm on #2 in the UK and low risk women see community midwives for the overwhelming majority of our care - I've literally only had to go to the hospital this time for the 12 and 20 week scans because all my midwife appointments have been in a clinic room in the local children's centre. I've seen the same midwife for all my appointments this time (along with half of them last time) and she's been really helpful, answered all my questions, given me work-friendly appointment times (9am every time works very well for me so I can drop my son to nursery first) and there's always a full 30 minute slot open.

There's no reason why women should have to be treated like they're in a cattle mart at hospital every few weeks when a community midwifery team could be seeing all the low risk women in community settings (this even involves home visits in rural areas) and doing a decent chunk of the medium risk basic antenatal care too.

I attended a community midwife clinic attached to Holles St in a Wicklow suburb of Dublin and it was brilliant. Never waited longer than 30 mins for appointments. Had some checks with my GP in between. Only went to the hospital for my 20 week scan and the birth. Will be doing the same this time round. It should definitely be made more common. And I was released early from hospital after the birth and midwives visited me at home.

Toastytoes

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Everything is caused by the 8th amendment, have you not read the memo?

People are discussing how they feel the 8th has affected their care. Do you have something useful to add to the discussion?

If not, what exactly are you doing here?

Wesser

Everything is caused by the 8th amendment, have you not read the memo?[/quote]

I actually feel really sorry for the doctors and nurses who have to work in these conditions.

Woman presents at 7 weeks with bleeding.
On one hand... if they don't scan.enough... they may miss a beating heart .... an do in appropriate D n C.

On the other hand..... scan too much and the women are shouting...... ah!!! My rights!!! My body!!

Hard to get it right!

.......

This post has been deleted.

January

E=Wesser wrote: »

I actually feel really sorry for the doctors and nurses who have to work in these conditions.

Woman presents at 7 weeks with bleeding.
On one hand... if they don't scan.enough... they may miss a beating heart .... an do in appropriate D n C.

On the other hand..... scan too much and the women are shouting...... ah!!! My rights!!! My body!!

Hard to get it right!

You've missed the point completely.

January

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Everything is caused by the 8th amendment, have you not read the memo?

This is not the place. If you want to discuss the 8th amendment generally then please go to AH where there are numerous threads already discussing it. This is a safe space for pregnant people or people who have been pregnant to discuss how they believe the 8th has affected them and as a mod I won't tolerate them being made to feel like their experiences are not valid ones.

Post like this again and I will ban you from this forum.

Wesser

I've not missed the point at all.

My.point us that there are several.really sad stories being told here. And my heart goes out to those people.
But I'm not really sure that what happened to them is due to the scandal.which is the 8th amendment.

It might be due to another scandal called the.miscarriage mis diagnosis scandal. Or else a third scandal called the lack of funding by the HSE scandal.

rainbow kirby

Wesser wrote: »

Or else a third scandal called the lack of funding by the HSE scandal.

The cost of providing proper diagnostic scanning facilities is a drop in the ocean compared to how much money is wasted on middle management paper pushing in the HSE.

ANXIOUS

January wrote: »

You've missed the point completely.

No, I don't think I that they have.