Parking problem with neighbour

glic71rods46t0

Hi all

Recently acquired a commercial building and having problems with neighbour parking cars on a public laneway blocking access to the back yard of the premises.

The laneway provides vehicular and pedestrian access to a number of properties and is not a cul-de-sac but the other end of the lane is pedestrian only as there are concrete bollards preventing vehicle access.

it was established at the time of purchase that the lane in question is in charge of the local council. The neighbour has access to his own private land on which he could park albeit more of an effort than just parking on the lane.
The neighbour was abusive to staff when we parked a van on the lane to move items to the building (we were ready to move the van at a moments notice and had expected that a civilised accommodation around moving vehicles would work for both parties) and is not reasonable in any way - he takes the attitude that he owns the lane and can do as he pleases.

I now feel that the only solution is to enforce our rights to access and insist that the lane is not blocked at any time.

I rang the local garda station and got no satisfaction at all - the garda just said if its a public lane he can park wherever he likes and that it was a civil matter regarding blocking our access.

I am happy to instruct our solicitor on the matter but I am unhappy with the way the garda dealt with my complaint.
I did a bit of google research and found s36 (2)(g) of S.I. No. 182/1997 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997:

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article.
(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—
(a) to (f) - removed by me as not relevant
(g) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises;

Can anyone tell me:
1. is the regulations quoted above still in force or have they been revoked by newer regulations?
2. if the regulations re still in force, should the gardai deal with the blocked laneway rather than me having to resort to solicitors?

Thank you in advance for any information/opinons

Victor

uwoam0rgysh6ql wrote: »

I did a bit of google research and found s36 (2)(g) of S.I. No. 182/1997 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997:

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article.
(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—
...
(g) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises;

That section is for dealing with others blocking entrances - gateways, doors, etc.

If they are blocking the whole laneway, the charge would be obstructing traffic.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

36 Prohibitions on Parking

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article.

(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

...

( k ) in a manner in which it will interfere with the normal flow of traffic or which obstructs or endangers other traffic;

While the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997 are still in force, section 36 has been replaced by S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012. However,
these two provisions remain the same. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

Prohibitions on parking

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5 a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose, referred to in sub-article (2).

(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

...

(g) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises,

...

(k) in a manner in which it will interfere with the normal flow of traffic or which obstructs or endangers other traffic,

....”,

glic71rods46t0

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glic71rods46t0

thanks for the reply Victor. Should I go back to the gardai quoting the regulations or use my solicitor?

Victor

uwoam0rgysh6ql wrote: »

thanks for the reply Victor. Should I go back to the gardai quoting the regulations or use my solicitor?

I think start with a (different) garda.

discodaveirl

Have it out with him, just because you know its a public lane doesn't mean he knows, maybe when he bought his property he was told that the lane was his etc, etc.... Explain that your both neighbours and want to be amicable... Dont go quoting law until you have to.... Could this neighbour be peeved that you bought this premises that s/he couldnt afford to and were interested in, or maybe they bought there similar premises during the celtic tiger and still paying for a drastically overpriced unit, compared to what you paid.... No excuse for there behaviour but explain this... If you go in all guns blazing it wont be any good...

glic71rods46t0

discodaveirl wrote: »

Have it out with him, just because you know its a public lane doesn't mean he knows, maybe when he bought his property he was told that the lane was his etc, etc.... Explain that your both neighbours and want to be amicable... Dont go quoting law until you have to.... Could this neighbour be peeved that you bought this premises that s/he couldnt afford to and were interested in, or maybe they bought there similar premises during the celtic tiger and still paying for a drastically overpriced unit, compared to what you paid.... No excuse for there behaviour but explain this... If you go in all guns blazing it wont be any good...

That ship has sailed I'm afraid, he is very aggressive and I wouldnt be surprised if any interaction with him would turn physical - I'm not going there. He is a belligerent bully and I'm told he has plenty of "previous". I intend to bring him to heel but would prefer to use the less costly route of getting gardai to enforce the law rather than the slow burn of a civil case. Maybe I could report the garda to GSOC, would that be an option?

elperello

GSOC would not be appropriate and if they did get involved it would only delay things.

If you are sure you want to go the Gardai route just look for a meeting with local super and explain the issue.
Tell him you need the assistance of the Gardai and you think the enforcement of the regs would help you.
Bring maps,legal docs etc.
You needn't say you were in before, you want to get the problem fixed not get the original Garda in trouble.
They use that "civil matter" thing all the time. It's a kind of reflex action.

Bear in mind that if this guy is as volatile as you say a visit from the Gardai probably won't improve his mood.

glic71rods46t0

elperello wrote: »

GSOC would not be appropriate and if they did get involved it would only delay things.

If you are sure you want to go the Gardai route just look for a meeting with local super and explain the issue.
Tell him you need the assistance of the Gardai and you think the enforcement of the regs would help you.
Bring maps,legal docs etc.
You needn't say you were in before, you want to get the problem fixed not get the original Garda in trouble.
They use that "civil matter" thing all the time. It's a kind of reflex action.

Bear in mind that if this guy is as volatile as you say a visit from the Gardai probably won't improve his mood.

I actually think a visit from the Gardai might help motivate the gardai to deal with him if he becomes abusive to them

4ensic15

Write a letter to the local Superintendent. Include photos and dates times etc. That will get some action.

BrianBoru00

. . . .But before you go to Super etc. I'd call in person to the station armed with the information you have. If you're not satisfied with the garda response then ask for his skipper / sergeant. Its probable that the garda was giving you a stock answer so now that you have your facts it It's important that you go through the "chain of command". If not happy with them I 'd tell them you're not happy with the response and would like to speak to someone higher - presumably the Superintendent.
So long as your not belligerent or aggressive in tone the majority of gardai will have no problem with the above.

4ensic15

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

. . . .But before you go to Super etc. I'd call in person to the station armed with the information you have. If you're not satisfied with the garda response then ask for his skipper / sergeant. Its probable that the garda was giving you a stock answer so now that you have your facts it It's important that you go through the "chain of command". If not happy with them I 'd tell them you're not happy with the response and would like to speak to someone higher - presumably the Superintendent.
So long as your not belligerent or aggressive in tone the majority of gardai will have no problem with the above.

Very poor advice IMO. Talking to a guard in a station and then asking for a sergeant is madness. You are not in a shop or a restaurant. The sergeant will always back the guard and you will be finished. The guard will now hate you. Write a letter to the Super and the Super will note it and pass it to a guard to deal with. There will be no defensiveness. If it is the same guard he will just pretend that it is the first he has heard of it and won't become defensive.

TheChizler

Does the local council have a parking warden you could tip off?

BrianBoru00

4ensic15 wrote: »

Very poor advice IMO. Talking to a guard in a station and then asking for a sergeant is madness. You are not in a shop or a restaurant. The sergeant will always back the guard and you will be finished. The guard will now hate you. Write a letter to the Super and the Super will note it and pass it to a guard to deal with. There will be no defensiveness. If it is the same guard he will just pretend that it is the first he has heard of it and won't become defensive.

It's not poor advice - It's the correct way of approaching it.

If the garda hates you he has serious issues - this isn't primary school. There are ranks in the garda siochana for a reason - the starting point is not the superintendent.

If you go through the garda / sergeant route first it may well be sorted out quite quickly.

elperello

uwoam0rgysh6ql wrote: »

I actually think a visit from the Gardai might help motivate the gardai to deal with him if he becomes abusive to them

Just bear in mind that if he is a "wrong un" he will likely bear a grudge even after this matter is sorted.

hullaballoo

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

It's not poor advice - It's the correct way of approaching it.

If the garda hates you he has serious issues - this isn't primary school. There are ranks in the garda siochana for a reason - the starting point is not the superintendent.

If you go through the garda / sergeant route first it may well be sorted out quite quickly.

I rarely agree with 4ensic but in this case, going to the rank-and-file member first is a bad call because anything else you do is or could be seen as going over their head... which is the right way to wind up both the Garda and the Super.

It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

BrianBoru00

hullaballoo wrote: »

I rarely agree with 4ensic but in this case, going to the rank-and-file member first is a bad call because anything else you do is or could be seen as going over their head... which is the right way to wind up both the Garda and the Super.

It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

And if you go direct to the super they're likely to think your up your own arse. And it'll be obvious that you ARE going over their head.
You'll possibly get a name for yourself as someone too important to deal with the lower ranks . In any case there's a strong possibility that the superintendents will just tell one of their clerical officers to send back a standard letter saying they will investigate and then dispatch a couple of gardai to look at and then report back. Contacting the superintendent may not result in anything more than contacting through the correct method.

So theres two ways of looking at. Therefore the best approach is to report to the local public office, during office hours if you want to be able to speak with an inspector / super on the day and again if the garda your dealing with isn't a dick then they'll probably be only too happy to ask an sergeant or inspector to speak with you.

4ensic15

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

And if you go direct to the super they're likely to think your up your own arse. And it'll be obvious that you ARE going over their head.
You'll possibly get a name for yourself as someone too important to deal with the lower ranks . In any case there's a strong possibility that the superintendents will just tell one of their clerical officers to send back a standard letter saying they will investigate and then dispatch a couple of gardai to look at and then report back. Contacting the superintendent may not result in anything more than contacting through the correct method.

So theres two ways of looking at. Therefore the best approach is to report to the local public office, during office hours if you want to be able to speak with an inspector / super on the day and again if the garda your dealing with isn't a dick then they'll probably be only too happy to ask an sergeant or inspector to speak with you.

In my experience the Superintendent will pass it on to a guard to deal with and it will be made clear that he does not want a follow up letter.as long as it stays at garda level nothing will be done. Ecalating after is a sure way of causing friction. A letter to the Superindent is the standard way of communicating dierctly with the Garda. Nobody writes to "Te Guards at Station X".

Mr. Incognito

Hold on- you parked in a right of way. You were obstructing your neighbours.

I would think he was in the right telling you to shift it.

NUTLEY BOY

Back to first principles.

OP says he was satisfied at time of purchase about the legal status of the laneway in question. My inclination would be to go back to the solicitor who did the conveyancing work to verify what searches or requisitions or whatever were done and with what result(s) in relation to that lane.

My reason for suggesting this is to be 100% on sure ground before proceeding any further in an effort to assert rights i.e. check what rights you actually possess before seeking to assert them.

As far as AGS are concerned something like this just would not interest them on the grand scale of things that they have to do in a day. I would have more confidence in formal and repeated complaints to traffic wardens.

Offhand, this also looks like the concept of public nuisance whereby the OP is suffering inconvenience over and above that being suffered by the public at large. I am minded of a 1977 English case relating to repeated obstruction of the highway. See Attorney General v Gastonia Coaches [1977] R.T.R. 219. Sorry I don't have an alternative source to reference this. As far as I remember the defendants were constantly parking coaches in a primarily residential street causing parking problems for neighbours and their vehicles.

BTW if the area of this problem is under DCC jurisdiction OP might be lucky and get the offending vehicles towed. Those guys will not take any nonsense from a bully and it might soften his cough.

BrianBoru00

4ensic15 wrote: »

In my experience the Superintendent will pass it on to a guard to deal with and it will be made clear that he does not want a follow up letter.as long as it stays at garda level nothing will be done. Ecalating after is a sure way of causing friction. A letter to the Superindent is the standard way of communicating dierctly with the Garda. Nobody writes to "Te Guards at Station X".

Look whether you escalate before or after is equally as likely to cause friction. And I don't believe anyone here suggested writing to "Te Guards at Station X" :rolleyes:
A letter to the superintendent is certainly not the standard way of communicating with the gardai.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=3430

J.pilkington

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hold on- you parked in a right of way. You were obstructing your neighbours.

I would think he was in the right telling you to shift it.

Hold on! Your attitude sounds similar to what the OP is having to deal with!

Did you read the opening post at all? He moved into a new unit and was moving stuff into it, parked his van to aid unloading and was on standby to move it should it be required. Hardly behaviour warranting your reply.

AndrewJRenko

J.pilkington wrote: »

Hold on! Your attitude sounds similar to what the OP is having to deal with!

Did you read the opening post at all? He moved into a new unit and was moving stuff into it, parked his van to aid unloading and was on standby to move it should it be required. Hardly behaviour warranting your reply.

In fairness, if you're planning on going to the Gardai or Court about yer man blocking the laneway, you'll find it difficult to get up on your high horse if he has pictures of you blocking the laneway.

Either way, the bad news is that if yer man has 'previous', it will be effectively impossible for the Gardai to enforce this. They're just not going to come out five days a week.