City Council proposes Busking by-laws

I am waiting until I see the full set of by-laws but my first thought is it seems to be reasonable but the under 16's bit is a bit strange. I've often seen young ones playing the violin or keyboards etc earning a few quid. Not sure what the issue is with that

If anyone happens to spot the details on the site, please post the link here. I didn't have much luck when I checked but maybe they haven't gotten to it yet

http://connachttribune.ie/public-to-have-say-on-city-busking-regulations/

The public is being given a say on the City Council’s draft busking bylaws.

The bylaws came before the local authority this week, and will now go on display in a bid to gather public opinion.

There’s been significant controversy over the proposed busking bylaws.
Some argue that regulating the activity will take away from the rich cultural landscape of the city centre.

The proposed bylaws include a permit requirement for performers under 16 years.

Busking would be restricted to between 10am and 11pm from April to October, and 10am and 10pm from November to March.

Victor

DaCor wrote: »

the under 16's bit is a bit strange.

Children under that age are restricted in employment. Possibly not the best idea having them sitting on the side of the street playing music by themselves.

Greaney

Victor wrote: »

Children under that age are restricted in employment. Possibly not the best idea having them sitting on the side of the street playing music by themselves.

I know loads of Mammys who supervise their talented offspring.... If you see a middle class lady lurking and gazing lovingly at them, while occasionally checking her phone... well harras those kids at your peril;)

Mrs OBumble

Kids from certain cultures are regularly put out busking for hours. They are well supervised by adults from said cultures, who make sure that the cash isn't knicked and who would be far more threatening than any middle-class mammy.

The issue is that the kids are being made to work, and that some cannot actually sing or even play the instrument they are holding.

inisboffin

What's posted here in the article actually seems reasonable enough for the most part, but from what I understand, the wording on the actual byelaws themselves is way more vague. I will wait to see the actual link.

For example, what was originally proposed in one I believe was that "buskers stop playing immediately if they draw a crowd". At best that is very vague, what is a crowd? This is a very different thing than asking people not to block businesses, and basically stops many performances from even starting.

The hours seem quite restrictive too, seeing as many pubs have piped music outside while they're open. 12 in summer and 11 in winter seems way more reasonable. As it stands the time is not policed, the guards don't want to touch it (often seen them wander by a visiting busker who didn't know after hours and say nothing if they were causing no trouble), and the wardens are only on in the daytime!

There was another listing about amps (which I'm not sure is still in?) basically there was a ban on amps larger than 50 watt. Now most of the buskers use an amp smaller than that when they use them. It is not so much the wattage as the volume level.

I think the Galway Buskers Community did a great job with starting their campaign to avoid bye laws and self regulate. They went in and talked to local shops, got feedback etc on what the biggest issues were. They spoke to each other and found out who was being being a gob****e and who wasn't. For the most part people were complying to the self-regulation, even by informing travelling buskers of the code of conduct in the summer. The community itself seems more connected. The 'Big Busks' have been great, and there was some great music this summer and in fact still is.
They have a facebook page for the community here and I believe they are on twitter too but I'm useless on that

inisboffin

The proposed bye laws are online now here.
Objections/comments only taken until 20th of December (despite the fact they put them up only last week or so) The wording for much of it is very vague, so can't see them standing up to legal challenge (if someone tried to do that).
The email is apparently environment@galwaycity.ie to send comments/objections.
A few sensible things in there thrown in with a load of ill thought out rules IMO (the amp thing for example is daft, you can get some noise out of a 5 or 10 watt amp, never mind 50w, so it seems to not care about volume but capacity). No street theatre at all before 6?

inisboffin

The proposed bye law discussion all over the media in the last few days: The Journal.ie, Drivetime on RTÉ 1, Newstalk, and the big yoke that is IrishCentral!

ClanofLams

Haven't gone through the proposed laws
and it sounds like they could be improved/clarified but something needs to be done.

Got my hair cut in town recently, usually don't, there was a busker about ten yards from the door who was not talented but more frustratingly, incredibly loud. Barber said he had been there over two hours already and was there most days for the guts of four hours. It would probably stop me from going back there again to be honest so no idea how staff tolerate it.

Whereisgalway

Some of em draw large crowds and make it impossible to get into the shops there outside, definitely loosing money.

inisboffin

ClanofLams wrote: »

Haven't gone through the proposed laws
and it sounds like they could be improved/clarified but something needs to be done.

Got my hair cut in town recently, usually don't, there was a busker about ten yards from the door who was not talented but more frustratingly, incredibly loud. Barber said he had been there over two hours already and was there most days for the guts of four hours. It would probably stop me from going back there again to be honest so no idea how staff tolerate it.

Since the summer the buskers have a code of conduct whereby everybody has to move at least every two hours. They are absolutely sticking to it. They have codes of conduct and a number up in many businesses that support them. Unless it was someone who had just landed in town, he wasn't there 4 hours, and I certainly wouldn't believe "most days for the guts of 4 hours" as the Evergreen spot (opposite the barbers) is one of the busiest pitches. There is a lot of he said she said from a couple of the businesses and they need to be called on it.

inisboffin

Whereisgalway wrote: »

Some of em draw large crowds and make it impossible to get into the shops there outside, definitely loosing money.

If it's impossible to get into shops then yes, something has to be done. Again something the buskers are trying to address themselves. On the losing money thing, I would say that the buskers draw more money to shops than they block. Buskers are one of the number one draws for Galway on many travel sites.

Whereisgalway

inisboffin wrote: »

If it's impossible to get into shops then yes, something has to be done. Again something the buskers are trying to address themselves. On the losing money thing, I would say that the buskers draw more money to shops than they block. Buskers are one of the number one draws for Galway on many travel sites.

That not the way the city council will look at it, shops pay massive rates and are the councillors meal tickets. Buskers don’t give any money into their sliver lined pockets

kippy

Whereisgalway wrote: »

That not the way the city council will look at it, shops pay massive rates and are the councillors meal tickets. Buskers don’t give any money into their sliver lined pockets

Indeed, however there are many things the council supports that are not rate paying but have an intangible effect on attracting people into the city. The numerous street parades throughout the year for example. I doubt many/any of the performers pay rates either but the council support them in facilitating and sometimes providing grants for same.

Mrs OBumble

Whereisgalway wrote: »

That not the way the city council will look at it, shops pay massive rates and are the councillors meal tickets. Buskers don’t give any money into their sliver lined pockets

Do you have any information about how good shopkeepers are at actually paying their rates?

inisboffin

Whereisgalway wrote: »

That not the way the city council will look at it, shops pay massive rates and are the councillors meal tickets. Buskers don’t give any money into their sliver lined pockets

Perhaps, but they should remember that Buskers are also part of the economy, whether resident or not, they spend money here.

Your Face

inisboffin wrote: »

Perhaps, but they should remember that Buskers are also part of the economy, whether resident or not, they spend money here.

Do buskers pay taxes?

Whereisgalway

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Do you have any information about how good shopkeepers are at actually paying their rates?

Do you have any information about any shopkeepers not paying their rates?

kippy

Your Face wrote: »

Do buskers pay taxes?

Not on income earned from busking, but who knows what else they earn from and they of course pay all the consumption taxes that all of us would pay.

martinkop

If its a declared income, then it is tax liable. If its not declared, then its tax fraud.

kippy

martinkop wrote: »

If its a declared income, then it is tax liable. If its not declared, then its tax fraud.

That's not really the point of this thread though, is it?

Mrs OBumble

kippy wrote: »

Not on income earned from busking, but who knows what else they earn from and they of course pay all the consumption taxes that all of us would pay.

What makes you say that? Any self employed person has to declare their income, including income received in cash.

Some of them who only busk occasionally might under declare, but the ones who make their living from it wouldn't get away with it - too many Revenue staff walking around the city for that!

kippy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What makes you say that? Any self employed person has to declare their income, including income received in cash.

Some of them who only busk occasionally might under declare, but the ones who make their living from it wouldn't get away with it - too many Revenue staff walking around the city for that!

I made an incorrect assumption that they could use the artists tax exemption however on review that doesn't apply to income from busking.
Apologies to anyone I have offended or wronged.
Can we move on with the thread?

inisboffin

kippy wrote: »

I made an incorrect assumption that they could use the artists tax exemption however on review that doesn't apply to income from busking.
Apologies to anyone I have offended or wronged.
Can we move on with the thread?

Yeah in fact tax exemption only applies for a 'thing' like a book (or a CD), NOT a performance income of *any* kind, be it on the street or in a pub or in a stadiu! It's an easy enough mistake, loads of people think it is true, hence the notion that artists all get huge tax breaks.

Moving on though There is a big busk planned on the 10th to raise awareness, and I believe loads of buskers and special guests will be out!

inisboffin

Stopped by the 'Big Busk' yesterday a couple of times to show support.

Fair play to them, they were out from 9.30 to 9.30 in that weather (they called a snow day a half hour early to pack up).

People seemed to be popping over to the info table, and a lot of people didn't know how restrictive the proposed bye laws are vs what the Buskers came up with. They are also working with the Galway Businesses to make a joint submission.

Reminder that submissions/objections re the proposed bye laws have to be individual (not a mass or template email) and in by 20th of December.

environment@galwaycity.ie

inisboffin

Just one more day to send your submissions/objections/comments to environment@galwaycity.ie - every submission should receive an acknowledgement email.

I'm commenting again as a just re read the proposed laws and some are so shaky and vague, verging on the scary (the main one I am thinking of is that its against the law "...say, do or sing anything that is likely to cause alarm, distress or offence to any member of the Public , any Business Owner or Occupier, the Council and / or any member of an Garda Siochana."

Everyone finds something offensive. Someone even suggested in one of the articles about this that "Only traditional Irish music" be allowed. Don't get me wrong, I love a bit of trad, but the mind boggles!

All of the 'sensible' bits proposed in the laws are bits the buskers has just started to implement with their own code.

Here's a link to the proposed bye laws.

Email sent.

inisboffin

Sorry, last bumpy post! I thought it was a 12 cut off to email today, but apparently it's 4pm. The server seemed to bounce emails, but that could be because a 'well known' band with a lot of followers put a video up about it, and they may have had an e-jam.

pure.conya

inisboffin wrote: »

Sorry, last bumpy post! I thought it was a 12 cut off to email today, but apparently it's 4pm. The server seemed to bounce emails, but that could be because a 'well known' band with a lot of followers put a video up about it, and they may have had an e-jam.

done

Mrs OBumble

inisboffin wrote: »

Sorry, last bumpy post! I thought it was a 12 cut off to email today, but apparently it's 4pm. The server seemed to bounce emails, but that could be because a 'well known' band with a lot of followers put a video up about it, and they may have had an e-jam.

Thanks for the reminder - their email was fixed and i got a submission receipt a little after 3pm.

I'd say there are some council officials who aren't pleased with the volume of submissions

JackTaylorFan

inisboffin wrote: »

Sorry, last bumpy post! I thought it was a 12 cut off to email today, but apparently it's 4pm. The server seemed to bounce emails, but that could be because a 'well known' band with a lot of followers put a video up about it, and they may have had an e-jam.

I sent my email today. Hope it was not too late.

JackTaylorFan

inisboffin wrote: »

I'm commenting again as a just re read the proposed laws and some are so shaky and vague, verging on the scary (the main one I am thinking of is that its against the law "...say, do or sing anything that is likely to cause alarm, distress or offence to any member of the Public , any Business Owner or Occupier, the Council and / or any member of an Garda Siochana."

Everyone finds something offensive. Someone even suggested in one of the articles about this that "Only traditional Irish music" be allowed. Don't get me wrong, I love a bit of trad, but the mind boggles!

I find the nutters walking around on shop street with religious fliers offensive - can we ban them? Oh, and charity muggers too?

pure.conya

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I find the nutters walking around on shop street with religious fliers offensive - can we ban them? Oh, and charity muggers too?

if it's during city council opening hours or you can find a warden you can report any flyer wielding butters under the litter act, even if they're not littering

JackTaylorFan

pure.conya wrote: »

if it's during city council opening hours or you can find a warden you can report any flyer wielding butters under the litter act, even if they're not littering

Thanks. I'll be extra vigilant from now on.