Cyclists banned from some Luas areas?

nomdeboardie

Can’t find a thread on this, but mods feel free to merge if there is one. I was alerted to this:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/department-of-transport-hails-luas-cross-city-as-exemplar-1.3144169
by a radio discussion this morning (Pat Kenny show – quite long segment).
Haven’t been cycling in the city centre much in a while – last time I went down Dawson St, a couple of months ago, it was do-able if dodgy, but now cycling has been banned there and in other spots of Luasage? Or just strongly discouraged? Are these areas where buses and maybe cars are still permitted? Any word from cyclists ‘on the ground’?

jon1981

I agree with it. If it's going to put cyclists at risk then so be it. A cyclist can reroute easily enough down the many other streets around, a Luas cannot. Don't see the problem here, we can't have it every way.

you just know a cyclist is going to end up wedged in the track or wander into the path of a luas while wearing headphones or something.

BTW I'm a daily cyclist into the city but I'm also pragmatic, if it's not safe then don't allow it . Cyclists can't be given priority all the time.

dermabrasion

Unenforceable. Not going to happen. Cyclists are like water, they flow the path of least resistance. They'd be better off putting signs up saying if you cycle here and you fall off, your a moron and we're not paying comps

nomdeboardie

jon1981 wrote: »

I agree with it. If it's going to put cyclists at risk then so be it. A cyclist can reroute easily enough down the many other streets around, a Luas cannot. Don't see the problem here, we can't have it every way.

you just know a cyclist is going to end up wedged in the track or wander into the path of a luas while wearing headphones or something.

BTW I'm a daily cyclist into the city but I'm also pragmatic, if it's not safe then don't allow it. Cyclists can't be given priority all the time.

Are cars also being asked to reroute? I don't have full info yet

schemingbohemia

nomdeboardie wrote: »

Are cars also being asked to reroute? I don't have full info yet

Have you been living under a stone? Yes, way more impact on cars than cyclists.

OnDraught

dermabrasion wrote: »

Unenforceable. Not going to happen. Cyclists are like water, they flow the path of least resistance. They'd be better off putting signs up saying if you cycle here and you fall off, your a moron and we're not paying comps

That’s pretty much what they’ve done in fairness. I’m sure they don’t really give a ****e if anyone cripples themselves once they have their arse covered.

jon1981

nomdeboardie wrote: »

Are cars also being asked to reroute? I don't have full info yet

Seriously? Motorists have been hammered both north and south of the quays with the changes to accommodate the Luas, cyclists haven't done too badly out of all this. The north quays are a joy to cycle now.

nomdeboardie

I haven’t been around the city centre much for a while. So if anyone can satisfy my curiosity purely as to whether cars are permitted on the specific sections where cyclists have been prohibited I’d be grateful. I’m not getting into a who-is-worse-off argument (yet :pac:)

check_six

nomdeboardie wrote: »

I haven’t been around the city centre much for a while. So if anyone can satisfy my curiosity purely as to whether cars are permitted on the specific sections where cyclists have been prohibited I’d be grateful. I’m not getting into a who-is-worse-off argument (yet :pac:)

Commuting and Transport have a thread on this topic.
Here's a pic of the new layout at the North end of Dawson St from that thread.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/415453/429728.JPG

Just past the Buses and Trams only sign you will see a people carrier and a taxi, so make of that what you will!

s15r330

The joys of cycling a 29er mountainbike

Macy0161

dermabrasion wrote: »

They'd be better off putting signs up saying if you cycle here and you fall off, your a moron and we're not paying comps

Isn't that what they're effectively doing with the signs? It won't be enforced, same as every other road law in the state, so just an arse covering excercise.

JazzyJ

Aren't bus only streets legal for bicycles though? Or am I mistaken, or there's maybe new laws for the Luas? From http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print:

(4) A person shall not enter a bus-only street with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle except for the purpose of access.

and

“ ‘bus-only street’ means a street or a portion of a street at each entrance to which is provided traffic sign number RUS 011 (no straight ahead) accompanied by an information plate to indicate that vehicles, other than large public service vehicles, pedal cycles and vehicles entering for access only, are prohibited from entering that street;”,

tomasrojo

It's reminiscent of the technically no-go-except-for-trams short section between Heuston station and St. Patrick's Hospital. Except it has a treacherous section of curving track.

tomasrojo

I think there are other issues with Dawson Street, apart from this short section. But I have to go and have a look myself.

Chips Lovell

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's reminiscent of the technically no-go-except-for-trams short section between Heuston station and St. Patrick's Hospital. Except it has a treacherous section of curving track.

There's several sections where all traffic is banned except for the Luas. Section behind the Four Courts is another. You still see some headbangers cycling or driving on it.

TallGlass

There is always option 2 folks, dismount the bike and walk down the street!

07Lapierre

TallGlass wrote: »

There is always option 2 folks, dismount the bike and walk down the street!

NEVER! Next you'll be telling us we should go for a swim before and go for a run after cycling! :P

tomasrojo

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

There's several sections where all traffic is banned except for the Luas. Section behind the Four Courts is another. You still see some headbangers cycling or driving on it.

Oh yeah, not saying the section near Heuston is unique, but it's similarly short, and a LOT of people use it, which I think will be the case for this too, unless the Gardaí enforce it consistently.

Actually, is this Dawson St. section unique in that it's restricted to trams and buses, not just trams? Other sections of the Luas that allow buses (as far as I know) allow all traffic.

Chips Lovell

Yeah, I don't think you'd see the cops doing too much enforcement. For the most part I think the prohibition is there as a warning that if you do come off or get a smack of a tram, it's your own fault.

monument

FYI the Pat Kenny segment was based on this:

Cyclists protest after new tram route stops them in their tracks

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/09ed136a-a953-11e7-93f3-16e2d16612a0

JazzyJ wrote: »

Aren't bus only streets legal for bicycles though? Or am I mistaken, or there's maybe new laws for the Luas? From http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print:



and

As your second quote says, the information plate must include text about cycling being allowed. As is the case with other bus only sections.

JazzyJ

monument wrote: »

As your second quote says, the information plate must include text about cycling being allowed. As is the case with other bus only sections.

I've found the legislation around it. Tram only streets - are exactly that - with no mention of access for bikes

nomdeboardie

monument wrote: »

FYI the Pat Kenny segment was based on this:

Cyclists protest after new tram route stops them in their tracks

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/09ed136a-a953-11e7-93f3-16e2d16612a0
...

Thanks for TheTimes link - I saw it, but can't read the article (did register for limited free access a while ago, but had to cancel due to their constant email spam (which then continued for another month anyway))

Kaisr Sose

There are bye laws specific to certain sections of red line that prohibit cycles - easy enough to add others to the coverage.
Shortest or most direct route or not, I don't know how it can be fun to cycle in front of silver bullet, on a slippy/cobbled surface...

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

As your second quote says, the information plate must include text about cycling being allowed. As is the case with other bus only sections.

So, new legislation required? Good thing StepaShane is so dynamic and laser-focused on his job.

punisher5112

I'm seeing a lot taking proper good falls, had 2 fall one after the other on O'Connell bridge, the bike flipped around and landed just in front of my bumper.

The section at college green heading away from Dolier st, is ridiculous where track is separate to the road but cyclists are using it and large vehicles can't see them coming up on the left of them.

buffalo

From that Times article:

One cyclist was told by a Luas staff member that they would be “putting the lives of 400 people [tram passengers] in danger” if they continued.

wtf?

IrishCycle.com reported earlier that Dawson St was advised as a no go because

the “space between the kerb and the west-bound rail is insufficient to accommodate cycling” and cyclists moving to the centre of tracks would be at risk with colliding with buses.

I very rarely ride between the rails and the kerb, both due to lack of space and the danger of people stepping out without checking for bikes, a not unusual occurrence in the city centre. I don't really see the difference between a bus and other motor traffic, they should all be giving 1-1.5m of space when overtaking.

I'm thinking of Mayor St, Abbey St, James St here.

buffalo

Also, I passed a couple of cyclist dismount signs today and I was wondering if they're enforceable? I've never seen a re-mount sign, so as long as I dismount for an inch or two...

(I'm pretty sure we've covered this ground before.)

Macy0161

buffalo wrote: »

(I'm pretty sure we've covered this ground before.)

East Link/ Tom Clarke Bridge has/ had an on-going discussion on this one I think!

papu

What an absolute joke.

carltonleon

Section at top of O'Connell St as you go round to the front of the Rotunda is quite ropey, in my opinion. You have to pass 4 tracks but it is tough to pass over them crossways (if you know what I mean) as they kinda of follow you around, so you are nearly taking them diagonally but they curve (I know I am not explaining it very well but believe me it is uncomfortable). Whatever about in the dry. in the wet it is going to be dangerous

CramCycle

One cyclist was told by a Luas staff member that they would be “putting the lives of 400 people [tram passengers] in danger” if they continued.

Just like the end of the movie Speed, where they were about to roll to a stop and then one of the train line workers cycled in front of the train and it derailed.

Lumen

I do enjoy cycling at speed between the Luas tracks. It gives me an excuse to execute what I believe to be Peter-Sagan-like lateral bunny hops, but which to other people probably look like a clumsy accident in progress.

Banning something without enforcement in order to mitigate against compo claims is a very Irish solution, and one that I approve of wholeheartedly.

papu

I assume motorbikes will be banned as well?

ED E

papu wrote: »

I assume motorbikes will be banned as well?

Are they allowed near it all when its a bus lane?

Macy0161

ED E wrote: »

Are they allowed near it all when its a bus lane?

They just need to get those "Be Polite" hi viz like the cyclone guys, then they can act how they want - footpaths, pedestrianised areas, mandatory cycle lines all ok, presumable because the font looks like Police...

magicbastarder

buffalo wrote: »

Also, I passed a couple of cyclist dismount signs today and I was wondering if they're enforceable? I've never seen a re-mount sign, so as long as I dismount for an inch or two...

(I'm pretty sure we've covered this ground before.)

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/road-sign-leaves-welsh-speakers-bewildered-2321082

uck51js9zml2yt

carltonleon wrote: »

Section at top of O'Connell St as you go round to the front of the Rotunda is quite ropey, in my opinion. You have to pass 4 tracks but it is tough to pass over them crossways (if you know what I mean) as they kinda of follow you around, so you are nearly taking them diagonally but they curve (I know I am not explaining it very well but believe me it is uncomfortable). Whatever about in the dry. in the wet it is going to be dangerous

generally find it ok.

nomdeboardie

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/road-sign-leaves-welsh-speakers-bewildered-2321082

Now that's taking the ...eh...proverbial:pac:

cdaly_

buffalo wrote: »

Also, I passed a couple of cyclist dismount signs today and I was wondering if they're enforceable? I've never seen a re-mount sign, so as long as I dismount for an inch or two...

(I'm pretty sure we've covered this ground before.)

I think you're meant to get off, salute, get on again and pedal off.



I'm not sure about the salute bit though...

Effects

jon1981 wrote: »

The north quays are a joy to cycle now.

Apart from a few potholes and bad repair jobs that need to be sorted out.

kirving

Lumen wrote: »

Banning something without enforcement in order to mitigate against compo claims is a very Irish solution, and one that I approve of wholeheartedly.

There's two ways of looking at most things, and this is one way. The other is that the designers genuinely don't want to see a cyclist killed after sliding under a Luas. Everyone has to make concessions for an integrated transport network in a predefined space, and for cyclists, the tracks certainly pose a significant risk.

There are infill rubber materials that can be added to existing tracks, and these should definitely be tested.

Effects

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

There's several sections where all traffic is banned except for the Luas. Section behind the Four Courts is another.You still see some headbangers cycling or driving on it[/URL].

Looks like it's probably a Garda car using in there as it's next to the Garda station. Same way they use it by Bus Aras.

Effects

I think we need a Stuttgart solution. Luas with a bike carrier. Can't see people obeying rules and not riding on it though.

punisher5112

That would be full of fools everyday and bikes would be stripped off also.

Kaisr Sose

Macy0161 wrote: »

They just need to get those "Be Polite" hi viz like the cyclone guys, then they can act how they want - footpaths, pedestrianised areas, mandatory cycle lines all ok, presumable because the font looks like Police...

But not very like 'Garda'...so a bit stupid in Ireland!

I do agree that some of those Cyclone motorbike guys think they can do what they want and don't get me started on the couriers on the cargo bikes....

average_runner

On College Street, the road and Luas are separate. But people are cycling on the luas track and then merging onto the road without checking the traffic coming from the right.

Some one will die before xmas there.

Effects

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Don't get me started on the couriers on the cargo bikes....

Brakes seem to be disabled on courier's cargo bikes, they don't seem to stop for anything.

Effects

average_runner wrote: »

On College Street, the road and Luas are separate. But people are cycling on the luas track and then merging onto the road without checking the traffic coming from the right.

I often use the Luas section to get by the sitting traffic. I'm pretty smart about checking before merging though. And I have seem cyclists and bus drivers have stand offs at that merge. But then I found bus drivers always pretty bad on that section since works began.

average_runner

Effects wrote: »

I often use the Luas section to get by the sitting traffic. I'm pretty smart about checking before merging though. And I have seem cyclists and bus drivers have stand offs at that merge. But then I found bus drivers always pretty bad on that section since works began.

Aye but the buses have the green light to go straight on, is there a light for the luas there? There must be or the luas will crash with a car/bus in December!!!!