Parkrun v Runner's World

Djoucer

Seems Parkrun are up in arms over this article in Runner's World.

https://www.runnersworld.co.uk/events/inside-the-world-of-race-cheats

A journalist "cheats" in a Parkrun as part of an interesting piece of cheating in the sport.

Parkrun issues statement accusing RW of undermining Parkrun and dismissing the achievements of so many.

Lots of park runners now saying they'll boycott magazine.

Seems a bit OTT from Parkrun given RW praised them and didn't offer any criticism of them.

http://www.parkrun.com/news/2017/10/04/keep-spreading-the-message/

RayCun

I saw the reaction before the article and agree, it seems way over the top

Testosterscone

Ironic thing is that it's one of the better articles RW has written in a long time. It's definitely a topical point as more and more cases come to light (Mike Rossi, Mark Vaz, Kip Lipton, Rob Young and the current issues around the current Mimi Anderson run

With many of these runs being done to leverage coaching business and sponsorship I say it's a topic that needs to be highlighted

Captain Havoc

I think PSH completely missed the point. It wasn't any kind of an attack on parkrun. I think RW makes a valid point.

Chivito550

Anybody cheating to try nab a top 5 placing in a Parkrun really just needs to train harder I think!

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

Anybody cheating to try nab a top 5 placing in a Parkrun really just needs to train harder I think!

Training harder not a popular choice for a large number of runners these days it's all about trying to be too clever and get away with bare minimum

(Applies to all facets of the sport not just park run in case people think I am having a pop)

eve

parkrun doesnt have the big things that would normally be used to prevent cheating or identify it afterwards (start/finish mat, timing chips, dedicated route with no access to non-runners, multiple on-course photographers, etc). As a result it relies on the honesty of everyone who runs through the finish chute to ensure that they did the full route. My usual parkrun is a two lap course and the Event Director one day had a guy storm up to him saying that he wasn't being allowed to get a finish token even though he had done the route. It turns out he thought it was just one lap but i cant fathom how he thought everyone else was so slow doing their 'one lap' or what he thought of the people running off to start their second lap instead of going through the finish chute after one lap.

The article was posted on RW today and I wonder if Paul Sinton-Hewitt got a copy of it beforehand. PSH has created a global event and he wants to stand by the integrity of parkrun. If he hadn't seen the article all he would know is that a Runner's World journalist purposely set out to cheat at parkrun. Therefore he probably felt that he needed to issue a statement first, to layout the goals of parkrun, the core principles and his feelings on it. He may not have had the specifics of the case or of what the article was about.

Having read the article myself the author doesn't sound too sorry for what he did. He said he felt 'grubby' but he still posted it on Twitter and Instagram which is just doubling down on his lie. His actions, if repeated across other Saturdays and other events, would cause anarchy. You can only judge people fairly if everyone has completed the same thing.

El Caballo

eve wrote: »

Having read the article myself the author doesn't sound too sorry for what he did. He said he felt 'grubby' but he still posted it on Twitter and Instagram which is just doubling down on his lie.

I think that was the idea, He didn't write the article as confession but planned to cheat to write the article as for your average cheater, the social media plaudits are probably the motivating factor, bragging rights.

Annie get your Run

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I think PSH completely missed the point. It wasn't any kind of an attack on parkrun. I think RW makes a valid point.

I can see why though. I think the article is quite good really and the mention of parkrun is minor really (just happened to be a parkrun he was cheating at) but if you're Paul Sinton-Hewitt, and it's the week of the 13th birthday celebrations and you're putting out so much positive publicity, I can see why you'd be less than happy with RW. I don't blame him and you'd think really that RW would know better (they should have realised it might be seen as a slight even if it wasn't meant as one).

I'm more upset by all the capital P's in this thread so far - it's parkrun (small p all one word!) :pac:

Djoucer

Why would RW know better? Know better than what?

Parkrun are big enough not to throw the toys out of the pram whenever someone says something that could be considered not positive or a slight.

It's an article about cheating and the author writes about himself cheating.

Ridiculous to say he doubled down on his "lie." He's a journalist promoting his work. He even contacted Parkrun to get result annulled.

Keeks

parkrun is more than just running....it also needs volunteers to work.

Why would people volunteer, if people are going to cheat and if people don't volunteer then there is no parkrun.....

I don't think the PSH is gone OTT at all....

I think RW took the lazy way out here and picked on parkrun to highlight how easy it is to cheat, where as eve has pointed out there don't have the infrastructure (start/finish mat, timing chips, dedicated route with no access etc) to deter cheats......they should have picked a "proper" race (whatever that is) rather than a volunteer lead organisations fun run. Something which has prize money, but they didn't as they knew they would be scalped if caught, where as in a parkrun, people would probably tend to ignore a once off....

Its just lazy....

Djoucer

You would swear park run invented organised running. Every single running event needs volunteers.

And no-one would suggest that an article in which a runner explored the issue of cheating challenged the foundation and fabric of their community.

No one is suddenly going to cheat in a park run now that RW has written about it.

Annie get your Run

Djoucer wrote: »

Why would RW know better? Know better than what?

Parkrun are big enough not to throw the toys out of the pram whenever someone says something that could be considered not positive or a slight.

.

Keeks has said it very well below (in my opinion). I think while RW might not have meant any slight on parkrun, they should have chosen a race to use in their example. What they are writing about needs to be discussed yes, and the article itself (in my opinion) is quite good but they choose a free weekly event in their cheating example when they could have chosen any number of races.

Just as a matter of interest I wonder why they used parkrun. And for that matter why did the event they used need to be mentioned at all - it does't add to the point about cheating really?

Testosterscone

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest I wonder why they used parkrun. And for that matter why did the event they used need to be mentioned at all - it does't add to the point about cheating really?

Personally I think it does as it highlights the motivation of bragging rights in social media as opposed to other tangible targets like qualifying times or finishers medals.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

Personally I think it does as it highlights the motivation of bragging rights in social media as opposed to other tangible targets like qualifying times or finishers medals.

+1. Some people are happy to show up week in and week out to claim a nice ego boost that comes with a soft win in 17 or 18 minutes, rather than taking on the best runners in more high profile events.

El Caballo

Chivito550 wrote: »

+1. Some people are happy to show up week in and week out to claim a nice ego boost that comes with a soft win in 17 or 18 minutes, rather than taking on the best runners in more high profile events.

I don't think that's what he was saying. Cheating vs an honest result are a completely different thing.

Sunny Dayz

I think it was a actually good article about cheating in races until it got to the bit about parkrun. It seemed the journalist was lazy and figured that parkrun was somewhere that would be easiest for him to show how simple it is to cheat in a race. Of course for the article he had to have an example of him successfully cheating or the article wouldn't be as good, would it? Why didn't he pick a local 5km or 10km chip timed race?


I don't think the article was trying to be malicious against parkun though, it think it just picked parkrun cos it's the easiest run to cheat in. I can understand PSH's reaction, parkrun is his baby and the article couldn't have come at a worst time when parkrun are celebrating 13 years.


I just hope the article doesn't spurn more people on to cheat at parkrun and behave in a flagrant manner to parkrun, it's volunteers and participants.

Candamir

So RW chose a non race to write an article illustrating the problem of race cheats?
It does seem a bit pointless not to mention lazy on the journal's part. Cheating at parkrun and bragging about your 'great time' would be akin to running half way around the Phoenix park and telling friends you'd run the whole way. What's the point. It's a bit/lot sad tbh. At least there might be a point to cheating in actual races where there's prizes/qualifying times etc to be gained. I don't blame PSH for being a bit peeved about it tbh.

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

I don't think that's what he was saying. Cheating vs an honest result are a completely different thing.

If the motivation is bragging rights on social media then you will see things like cheating and people running for soft victories. They may be two different things, and not what he was referring to, but the motivation is the same.

Testosterscone

El Caballo wrote: »

I don't think that's what he was saying. Cheating vs an honest result are a completely different thing.

Yes sorry the point I was making was referring to people's motivation to cheat being at every level of the sport.

Keeks

Chivito550 wrote: »

+1. Some people are happy to show up week in and week out to claim a nice ego boost that comes with a soft win in 17 or 18 minutes, rather than taking on the best runners in more high profile events.

that's a different issue compared to cheating.....

Look what ever people think, where there is competition there will be cheats and that is just life. Cheaters rarely prospers and are usually found out in time....

And any organisation is going to feel aggrieved that they were picked on to highlight cheating, and using parkrun to highlight cheating, when the article talks about marathon, race across america, world records and ultra cheats doesn't make sense to me.....

Why use a local fun run to do this.....it just encourages people to do this for bragging rights. It also now makes people more skeptical of results.

Its lazy journalism

Last week, people would have given praise for what would have been perceived as a hard effort....possible a culmination of some weeks of hard work....this week they won't believe you....

If people want to brag about there PBs in a parkrun, let them. If they cheat to do it they will soon be ridiculed and found out.

but it is wrong, to have a article about cheating fame/bragging rights and then use a parkrun to highlight how easy it is to cheat....who really cares if you smash a parkrun

Keeks

Sorry...forgot to mention.....

The article is about cheating in amateur sports, so Is cheating in parkruns such a problem that it needs to be highlighted







* i have no idea why this topic has go under my skin, it has been yonks since i've done a parkrun

Sunny Dayz

Keeks wrote: »

Sorry...forgot to mention.....

The article is about cheating in amateur sports, so Is cheating in parkruns such a problem that it needs to be highlighted

Not that I've noticed at my local parkrun or any of the few that I've visited. Few people cutting corners but it's hard not to in fairness (my son calls it taking the racing line to use his motorsport analogy!). Have seen one or two teenagers cut the course short but that was out of laziness, not trying to get a pb or to beat someone though.

El Caballo

Keeks wrote: »

Sorry...forgot to mention.....

The article is about cheating in amateur sports, so Is cheating in parkruns such a problem that it needs to be highlighted

I don't think the author is trying to highlight cheating in park run, He's highlighting cheating in amateur running and probably choose park run because it encompasses a lot of what amateur running is No prizes or such but you against the clock so the fulfilment of running a good time is just yours. If you cheat in park run, you are just cheating yourself and no one else so he probably thought it was the best place to feel what it likes to cheat to get the experience of cheating for an ego boost alone. I don't see this as taking a shot in anyway against parkrun.

morceli

People already cheat at parkrun, many exampls and RD's removing people from, results having found them to be cheating.
Its a good article and funny when you compare the reaction Mark Daly got when taking EPO. In this case the author is highlighting cheating that takes place at all events from Marathon , to parkruns.. I think he followed a good process and contacted PR to let them know and correct the results a non issue really.

Chivito550

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Not that I've noticed at my local parkrun or any of the few that I've visited. Few people cutting corners but it's hard not to in fairness (my son calls it taking the racing line to use his motorsport analogy!). Have seen one or two teenagers cut the course short but that was out of laziness, not trying to get a pb or to beat someone though.

I haven't run too many of them (9 I think in 3 years) but every time at Marlay I see runners beside me cutting corners on the turns. It does my head in.

diego_b

Even at a junior level at my local junior parkrun it’s proven a challenge to get the kids to stop jumping the start, to have enough Marshalls to stop short cuts been taken (skipping almost half of 1 of the / 2 laps) and corner cutting.
For the starts I’ve tried to tell the kids at my club that they really need to cut it out (the ones in question really don’t need the few seconds either) as in proper races they will be dq’ed.

Swashbuckler

Chivito550 wrote:

I haven't run too many of them (9 I think in 3 years) but every time at Marlay I see runners beside me cutting corners on the turns. It does my head in.

I just don't get it. Why the hell would you cheat at parkrun. For a pb which isn't genuine? Mental.

Murph_D

Why would you cheat in any race? I was enjoying the article about cheating, but the left turn into journo-cheating a la Mark Daly did not reveal any insights. I'm surprised he wasn't caught, to be honest - he'd never get away with that in St. Anne's. So he "proved" that cheating is easy, as if that was necessary. Of course it wasn't necessary. Anyone who runs races or parkruns knows there plenty of opportunities to cheat, if you're so inclined.

I'd much prefer if the 'journo' had interviewed some actual cheats to help us get inside their strange little minds.

Djoucer

You completely missed the point.

He wasn't proving how easy it is to cheat. He was writing of how he felt about cheating. He was, as you requested, attempting to het into the mind of cheaters.

Given how most of us won't ever xheat, it's an interesting insight given those who do cheat rarely fess up.

He's a journalist. This journal.ie ****e of putting inverted commas around "journo"

Djoucer

You completely missed the point.

He wasn't proving how easy it is to cheat. He was writing of how he felt about cheating. He was, as you requested, attempting to het into the mind of cheaters.

Given how most of us won't ever xheat, it's an interesting insight given those who do cheat rarely fess up.

He's a journalist. This journal.ie ****e of putting inverted commas around "journo"

HigginsJ

Murph_D wrote: »

Why would you cheat in any race?

I find it really hard to understand. 99% of us are so far removed from cheating being worth any benefit that it baffles me. Outside of those who run I doubt many people know/could care about the difference between a 21 or 23 minute 5k say.

Running is fairly straight forward, if you want to get better run more. I know of one person who put up a false time for a race they did, I never said anything or made reference of it to them but it bugged the **** out of me as I feel it lessened the value of my time :mad:

If someone wants to cheat, good luck to them, you'd hope they know it's meaningless.

ger664

parkrun is a timed run not a race so really who are you cheating only yourself.

snailsong

Imagine if I was writing an article about shoplifting. Would it be ok to steal something small from Tesco and bring it back a few days later and apologise? Just to see what it felt like to get into the mindset of a shoplifter.
What if I was afraid of the security in Tesco so I steal a bar of chocolate from the old lady in the corner shop. I'm bringing it back in a few days so that's ok, right?

snailsong

snailsong wrote: »

Imagine if I was writing an article about shoplifting. Would it be ok to steal something small from Tesco and bring it back a few days later and apologise? Just to see what it felt like to get into the mindset of a shoplifter.
What if I was afraid of the security in Tesco so I steal a bar of chocolate from the old lady in the corner shop. I'm bringing it back in a few days so that's ok, right?

Erm, both of those instances would be theft and, thus, crimes.

And so nothing like what the journalist in RW did.

It seems a bit thin skinned by parkrun. They weren't the target of the article.

Murph_D

Djoucer wrote: »

You completely missed the point.

I beg to differ.

What the RW writer did does not put you into the mindset of a cheat. It puts you into the mindset of a writer deliberately breaking rules in order to 'sex up' an article about cheating.

Not the same thing.

And Snailsong's corner shop / Tesco analogy is apt. It's much easier to take shortcuts or cheat at a small non-competitive event than a big event.

It's just lazy.

snailsong

Deleted User wrote: »

Erm, both of those instances would be theft and, thus, crimes.

And so nothing like what the journalist in RW did.

It seems a bit thin skinned by parkrun. They weren't the target of the article.

I'm talking about the moral aspect. I know it's not illegal to cheat at parkrun but they do have rules. When the journalist decided to ignore those rules he was disrespectful to parkrun, the other runners and the volunteers. 'Fessing up later doesn't make it ok.
As was said above, parkrun was a soft target and they've every right to be miffed. Accusing them of being 'thin skinned' adds insult to injury.

In fact, the writer seems to realise, retrospectively, that what he did was out of order. He couldn't look the other runners in the eye. Didn't stop him writing the article though.

IvoryTower

In my experience from cheating at monopoly every Christmas, you still think you're a winner, you'll brag about those pbs and love how impressed everyone was that you came 22nd or whatever.

Only difference is I tell them after to rub it in their face

snailsong

snailsong wrote: »

In fact, the writer seems to realise, retrospectively, that what he did was out of order. He couldn't look the other runners in the eye. Didn't stop him writing the article though.

Um.

I really don't think he couldn't look other runners in the eye because of the thought of what he did to the reputation of parkrun!

I think it was about cheats. You think it was about parkrun and they were a "soft target". As I said, I don't think parkrun was the target at all. We'll just have to agree to differ.

annapr

IvoryTower wrote: »

In my experience from cheating at monopoly every Christmas, you still think you're a winner, you'll brag about those pbs and love how impressed everyone was that you came 22nd or whatever.

Only difference is I tell them after to rub it in their face

Ah no, cheating at monopoly is a requirement, especially if you're the bank...

I read the article and PSH's response after reading all the comments here. The article was mildly interesting if a little short on facts... lots of conjecture and 'anecdotal' evidence that cheating is on the increase but no actual evidence and very little research... but then that's 'journalism' for you.

I thought PSH's response was measured enough, although he was clearly offended.

I know of several instances of 'cheating' from local parkruns, some more scurrilous than others. On one occasion, a faster runner asked to have his name deleted from results because he knew somebody ahead of him in the results didn't do the 3 laps. And he didn't want 5th place on his record, I suppose

On another occasion a woman sauntered in, first female... having done 2 of 3 laps... said yes she had done 5k... turned out she was a lawyer.... !

snailsong

Deleted User wrote: »

snailsong wrote: »

In fact, the writer seems to realise, retrospectively, that what he did was out of order. He couldn't look the other runners in the eye. Didn't stop him writing the article though.

Um.

I really don't think he couldn't look other runners in the eye because of the thought of what he did to the reputation of parkrun!

I think it was about cheats. You think it was about parkrun and they were a "soft target". As I said, I don't think parkrun was the target at all. We'll just have to agree to differ.

Eh,

Um,

That's not what I think at all.

annapr

annapr wrote: »

I know of several instances of 'cheating' from local parkruns...

More about parkruns and cheating, to add to the RW article! Careful now...:)

snailsong wrote: »

That's not what I think at all.

Where we differ is simply that you think parkrun was the target...

snailsong wrote: »

As was said above, parkrun was a soft target and they've every right to be miffed...

I don't think they were. I think it was merely a convenient setting for him to give his article a bit of a personal angle. To take your Tesco analogy, like someone going undercover in Tesco to investigate shoplifting by customers.

rooneyjm

snailsong wrote: »

Imagine if I was writing an article about shoplifting. Would it be ok to steal something small from Tesco and bring it back a few days later and apologise? Just to see what it felt like to get into the mindset of a shoplifter.
What if I was afraid of the security in Tesco so I steal a bar of chocolate from the old lady in the corner shop. I'm bringing it back in a few days so that's ok, right?

That's the problem, robbing from the old lady has little or no credibility when showing how it felt to be a shoplifter/ cheat, little risk, no consequences. Any muppet can rob from a corner shop, yet only the ones with a chemical imbalance do. Much like cheaters and especially at parkrun

robinph

For the shoplifting comparison, if he was writing an article about that there are plenty of people convicted of petty crime he could go and speak to to ask them about why they did what they did. None of those race cheats mentioned in the article are really inclined to speak to anyone about it, or just carry on with the lie.

People getting riled up about RW having done the article are just confirming that cheating is an issue that people care about, which was the point of the article. It wasn't out to get parkrun, it wasn't using parkrun because it was a soft target as it wasn't the target of the article at all. parkrun was just used as an example to show that even cheating in the most non-race type race was still bad and that the author couldn't see the point of doing so. Even his social media "boast" about the new PB was ignored and he couldn't take any pleasure from it, which was the point he was making.

There wasn't anything in the article attacking parkrun, or humiliating volunteers as parkrun HQ have been claiming. They did get accused of being a race, but that all depends on your definition of the term race, but I'm sure we've all had people think we run marathon races every weekend regardless of the distance, timing systems or numbers being worn.

They really shouldn't have been sending that email worldwide to their followers attacking RW UK for an article that barely mentions them in passing. parkrun entirely caused the issue and outrage on both sides, nobody knew about the article until the PSH email.

slingerz

As someone who is at the back of things in the parkrun each week i cant say i'd be overly miffed about a fella cheating. Realistically all i can ever hope for is a PB, which i am currently miles away from eclipising. maybe its the perrogrative of someone who is behind these people already but there have been instances where i'm seen similar backmarkers not reach the furthest out point in the course and finish before me. Ultimiately what difference does it make between 191st place and 217th!

robinph

I don't think I'd be overly bothered by someone cheating at parkrun finishing infront of me, obviously I'd be putting curses on them but other than that I've done my run and have my times that's all I'm bothered about. If it was someone I knew or from my club then I'd be having serious words with them about it, and we have had that happen at a parkrun previously where action was taken, but otherwise I'd just feel a bit sorry for them mostly... unless they claimed a course record in the process.

I was a bit peeved once where I finished second in an event, knew perfectly well I'd been beaten by the other guy as I'd had sight of him all the way round, but then when the results came out he was listed as an unknown which did annoy me. No problem with having been beaten, but he could have at least remembered his barcode. The results were then updated the following day so I guess there had been some other issue with the scanning and all was well with the world again.

average_runner

To be honest I don't care who finishes ahead of me, it's my time i care about.

Having said that, in Griffeen last weekend, I had a runner in front of me that would swerve to block me off on the path when we I tried to over take him about 4 times.
Eventually I had to go on the grass and went over on my ankle.

Worst of all, this wasn't for the lead in the race or anything, both of us were low 21 mins time :rolleyes:

robinph

^ That wouldn't be acceptable behaviour in a race, whether that is a parkrun or not.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

To be honest I don't care who finishes ahead of me, it's my time i care about.

Having said that, in Griffeen last weekend, I had a runner in front of me that would swerve to block me off on the path when we I tried to over take him about 4 times.
Eventually I had to go on the grass and went over on my ankle.

Worst of all, this wasn't for the lead in the race or anything, both of us were low 21 mins time :rolleyes:

Sounds like you were racing Mr. Bean.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Sounds like you were racing Mr. Bean.

More like Father Jack!!!!!!!!!

partyguinness

Well if you are cheating on a Parkrun you are just a sad bastard and only fooling yourself. Quite frankly, you are a horrible shameless person with no soul. Ultimately it is pointless.