Motor tax site trying to charge me on engine size for a 141

dbagman

In brief, bought a 2014 ford kuga. Just got the book in the post so tried taxing it straight away. For whatever reason its trying to charge me based on engine size. So is trying to charge me 700+ euro for a car that should only cost 280 based on its emissions. Best part is its actually down as a commercial vehicle. But even at that it should only be costing 330. Whats that about?? Iv a feeling this is going to cause me untold stress trying to deal with the tax office. Id rather the car on an nct and taxed privetely given the cheaper costs and 2 year test over an annual one but as I use it mainly for work keeping it on a cvrt isnt a deal breaker, but how in gods name are they trying to charge me motor tax on engine size?

alias no.9

Sounds like you're trying to privately tax a commercial vehicle, is it a crew cab?

GM228

If it is commercial than only engine size rates apply, there is no €700 commercial tax though, what is the g/km?

A friend has a Kuga which is 180g/km and so falls into Band E for the emissions which is €750 annually.

Most Kugas however are in Band D at €570 or Band C at €390.

b.c

to tax a commercial privately its based on engine size, to tax it commercially they will be looking for the cvrt and a commercial insurance cert, you will have to get a goods only declaration form stamped at garda station.

CiniO

dbagman wrote: »

In brief, bought a 2014 ford kuga. Just got the book in the post so tried taxing it straight away. For whatever reason its trying to charge me based on engine size. So is trying to charge me 700+ euro for a car that should only cost 280 based on its emissions. Best part is its actually down as a commercial vehicle. But even at that it should only be costing 330. Whats that about?? Iv a feeling this is going to cause me untold stress trying to deal with the tax office. Id rather the car on an nct and taxed privetely given the cheaper costs and 2 year test over an annual one but as I use it mainly for work keeping it on a cvrt isnt a deal breaker, but how in gods name are they trying to charge me motor tax on engine size?

Looks like vehicle you bought is a goods vehicle. (EU category N1 - you can check logbook for that).

If that's the case, vehicle will be due CVRT regardless of how you tax it or what you prefer (NCT or CVRT).

Also such vehicle can be taxed as goods vehicle (probably for €330 as you mentioned) if used for business, or privately based on engine size.
There's no option to tax such vehicle based on CO2 emissions.

bazz26

Just to add some perspective to the OP's situation:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104783769

dbagman

It has a valid cvrt. And iv insured it as a commercial vehicle and produced the insurance. I'm not choosing to tax it privately it's telling me that's what's happening. Why can't I change It?

dbagman

alias no.9 wrote:

Sounds like you're trying to privately tax a commercial vehicle, is it a crew cab?

Crew cab yes. But has a valid cvrt and is insured as such.

dbagman

GM228 wrote:

If it is commercial than only engine size rates apply, there is no €700 commercial tax though, what is the g/km?

If it's commercial the flat 330 rate applies. Co2 or engine sized shouldn't matter. Its emissions are 139.

CeilingFly

Because you have not presented a goods only declaration.

For first tax, you need to get goods declaration signed by garda and present it in person at a tax office.

Future tax can be done online

dbagman

CiniO wrote:

Looks like vehicle you bought is a goods vehicle. (EU category N1 - you can check logbook for that).

Is there a way to change that. It would only be a matter of reinstalling the rear middle seat belt. That's the only modification to make it a crew cab

uck51js9zml2yt

dbagman wrote: »

It has a valid cvrt. And iv insured it as a commercial vehicle and produced the insurance. I'm not choosing to tax it privately it's telling me that's what's happening. Why can't I change It?

You need to present your commercial insurance certificate to the MTO for first time taxing along with an Rf111 (goods declaration)stamped by Gardai. You can do it online after this happens.

CiniO

dbagman wrote: »

Is there a way to change that. It would only be a matter of reinstalling the rear middle seat belt. That's the only modification to make it a crew cab

Crew cabs are exact same EU vehicle category N1. They are still goods vehicles... So it woulnd't make any difference.

As others advised you, if you want to tax it at commercial rate, you'll need to give motortax office a visit in person.

colm_mcm

There was a thread on this already last week! You knew this would happen

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104771097

miketheDIYman

Can anyone advise me if my private car I recently purchased is in the right category Its a Toyota 1.6 petrol Corolla Verso 7 seater 2009 I was surprised when I had to tax it for the year at 750

dbagman

CiniO wrote:

As others advised you, if you want to tax it at commercial rate, you'll need to give motortax office a visit in person.

But if I wanted to change it to a private vehicle how can I? Or can I? Like I said I use it for work most of the time and we have a second car. But it will be used outside of work the odd time. What are the consequences if I happen to be stopped with the young lad in the car??

colm_mcm

miketheDIYman wrote: »

Can anyone advise me if my private car I recently purchased is in the right category Its a Toyota 1.6 petrol Corolla Verso 7 seater 2009 I was surprised when I had to tax it for the year at 750

Yep. That engine was a victim of the CO2 based tax. The newer model Verso has lower tax as it has the new 1.6 valvematic engine. The engine in the Corolla Verso is from 2000 with a 5 speed box and is just that bit harder on fuel.

dbagman

colm_mcm wrote:

There was a thread on this already last week! You knew this would happen

I did not know the tax office was going to look for 700 plus to tax it. That was my initial question. And i didnt get the answers i needed in the other thread either. If you've nothing to add to the conversation then please don't comment.

colm_mcm

dbagman wrote: »

But if I wanted to change it to a private vehicle how can I? Or can I? Like I said I use it for work most of the time and we have a second car. But it will be used outside of work the odd time. What are the consequences if I happen to be stopped with the young lad in the car??

You could possibly pay the VRT as a passenger car, which mightn't even be possible as your car is down as a factory 4 seater as a tax dodge so it might be a complicated process to change that

dbagman wrote: »

I did not know the tax office was going to look for 700 plus to tax it. That was my initial question. And i didnt get the answers i needed in the other thread either. If you've nothing to add to the conversation then please don't comment.

To be fair I told you that in the second post on your original thread. Don't know what more I can add if you choose to ignore the advice myself and others gave you last week.
You bought a crewcab. It's not a car.

CiniO

dbagman wrote: »

But if I wanted to change it to a private vehicle how can I? Or can I? Like I said I use it for work most of the time and we have a second car. But it will be used outside of work the odd time. What are the consequences if I happen to be stopped with the young lad in the car??

I'm sure you can convert it to private car.
That would involve changing EU vehicle category from N1 to M1.
I don't know what is exact process, but I'm pretty sure engineers report will be needed as well as payment of VRT or at least of difference in VRT rate.

I strongly doubt it would be worth doing.

CiniO

dbagman wrote: »

I did not know the tax office was going to look for 700 plus to tax it. That was my initial question.

If you looked up the tax rules before you bought it you would know.

Anyway - why don't you tax it under commercial rate of €330 ?

dbagman

CiniO wrote:

Anyway - why don't you tax it under commercial rate of €330 ?

I'm just worried the one day I get stopped I'll have my young lad with me. It will obvs not be getting used for work purposes then. Iv had a commercial for years and no issues. But that didn't have back seats.

hi5

dbagman wrote: »

But if I wanted to change it to a private vehicle how can I? Or can I? Like I said I use it for work most of the time and we have a second car. But it will be used outside of work the odd time. What are the consequences if I happen to be stopped with the young lad in the car??

Phone your nearest ATC, they do the testing for type approval.

https://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

CJhaughey

Don't forget there will be a VRT liability when you change from Commercial to Private.
It could be a substantial amount.

Tax it commercially and forget about it, the guards don't give a damn. I know countless people using crew cabs and 5 seat commercials for family use (some exclusively for family and some for family and business).

dbagman

So I looked into it a bit more today. Rang tax office. Apparently the reason they're now looking for 750 or whatever for the year is when the garage I bought the car from changed over the reg to me he told them it was now a private vehicle. When I went to see it and questioned why it was on a cvrt and if he could change it to an nct he told me it won't need it as it will only be 330 tax. So by him telling the tax office it's private he's basically ****ed me over and given me false information about the tax status of the car. I'm going to enquire further bout changing it to an nct but either way I'm going to have to have words with the dealer. That was not on. He should.of been up front with me. By him declaring it as private he knew full well what he was at

CiniO

dbagman wrote: »

So I looked into it a bit more today. Rang tax office. Apparently the reason they're now looking for 750 or whatever for the year is when the garage I bought the car from changed over the reg to me he told them it was now a private vehicle. When I went to see it and questioned why it was on a cvrt and if he could change it to an nct he told me it won't need it as it will only be 330 tax. So by him telling the tax office it's private he's basically ****ed me over and given me false information about the tax status of the car. I'm going to enquire further bout changing it to an nct but either way I'm going to have to have words with the dealer. That was not on. He should.of been up front with me. By him declaring it as private he knew full well what he was at

That's nonsense.
He has nothing to do with the tax class under which you will be taxing your vehicle.
This is purely a case between you and motortax office and dealer who sold you the car has nothing to do with it.

You were already told all information on your options in this thread but you keep talking about same things like switching from cvrt to NCT which is not possible without amending vehicle EU category and paying VRT.

Just reread all replies in this thread and you will know what to do.

dbagman

CiniO wrote: »

That's nonsense.
He has nothing to do with the tax class under which you will be taxing your vehicle.
This is purely a case between you and motortax office and dealer who sold you the car has nothing to do with it.

You were already told all information on your options in this thread but you keep talking about same things like switching from cvrt to NCT which is not possible without amending vehicle EU category and paying VRT.

Just reread all replies in this thread and you will know what to do.

the tax office told me themselves they were notified of the change of vehicle tax class to private on the date i bought the car. hence the 750 annual bill. that could only have been done by the seller as it wasnt done by me. straight from the horses mouth. but thanks for your nonsense input.

GM228

dbagman wrote: »

the tax office told me themselves they were notified of the change of vehicle tax class to private on the date i bought the car. hence the 750 annual bill. that could only have been done by the seller as it wasnt done by me. straight from the horses mouth. but thanks for your nonsense input.

I think what CiniO means is you can't change from CVRT to NCT. Yes a dealer can change the tax basis, but not the vehicle type.

The tests are based on vehicle type, not tax class.

If you have a N1 "goods vehicle" for example and you change from commercial to private tax you must still CVRT it even with the private tax basis.

CiniO

dbagman wrote: »

the tax office told me themselves they were notified of the change of vehicle tax class to private on the date i bought the car. hence the 750 annual bill. that could only have been done by the seller as it wasnt done by me.

Yet another option is that it happens automatically during change of ownership process, and can be reverted by signing "goods only declaration".
I'm not sure.

straight from the horses mouth. but thanks for your nonsense input.

I though I contributed a bit to answering your questions in this thread and other one, but if you consider my replies as nonsense, I can keep quite - no bother.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

Yet another option is that it happens automatically during change of ownership process, and can be reverted by signing "goods only declaration".
I'm not sure.

RF111 and RF111a are required (and the associated documentation required) to change back.

elperello

I've never heard of a ruling from a court that it is against the rules to carry "the young fellow" in a commercial vehicle.
In any case you can get a commercial policy that covers SDP.
Maybe someone can confirm?
As someone else said the Gardai seem to take little notice of the goods only declaration.

dbagman

elperello wrote:

I've never heard of a ruling from a court that it is against the rules to carry "the young fellow" in a commercial vehicle. In any case you can get a commercial policy that covers SDP. Maybe someone can confirm? As someone else said the Gardai seem to take little notice of the goods only declaration.

In the goods only declaration you're stating just that. That it will only be used for goods and passengers relating to your work. My issue is with customs. They see me with a cvrt and the young lad in the car they might take issue. And iv seen them more than once at the top of my estate.

GM228

elperello wrote: »

I've never heard of a ruling from a court that it is against the rules to carry "the young fellow" in a commercial vehicle.

It's covered under the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 (as amended).

dbagman

CiniO wrote:

Yet another option is that it happens automatically during change of ownership process, and can be reverted by signing "goods only declaration". I'm not sure.

It was changed by the seller. That's what I'm trying to tel you. It doesn't change automatically. That's what they told me as I asked them exactly what iv asked here. Why is the car being taxed on its engine size and not on emissions or as a commercial. I wasn't aware you could tax a commercial as private or that a vehicle past 2008 could still be taxed on engine size. In effect I'm getting shafted both ways as I'm paying the full whack tax privately but I still have to test it every year

GM228

dbagman wrote: »

In the goods only declaration you're stating just that. That it will only be used for goods and passengers relating to your work. My issue is with customs. They see me with a cvrt and the young lad in the car they might take issue. And iv seen them more than once at the top of my estate.

Why would you have an issue with customs?

If you have a CVRT and a youg lad in the car with private tax there is no issues.

elperello

They still tax post 2008 commercials at the old cc. rate if you go private.

GM228

dbagman wrote: »

It was changed by the seller. That's what I'm trying to tel you. It doesn't change automatically. That's what they told me as I asked them exactly what iv asked here. Why is the car being taxed on its engine size and not on emissions or as a commercial. I wasn't aware you could tax a commercial as private or that a vehicle past 2008 could still be taxed on engine size. In effect I'm getting shafted both ways as I'm paying the full whack tax privately but I still have to test it every year

I'm not really sure if you are saying at this stage that you want:-

(a) cheaper private tax, or
(b) to go back to commercial tax

(a) can't happen, but if you want (b) you can easily do so (if you qualify).

MojoMaker

Look, all the lad wants to do is tax the damn vehicle commercially and allow for personal use. Yes it's against the letter of the law, but since everyone does it, so WTF is the problem??

elperello

MojoMaker wrote: »

Look, all the lad wants to do is tax the damn vehicle commercially and allow for personal use. Yes it's against the letter of the law, but since everyone does it, so WTF is the problem??

You are correct in that everyone does it but GM228 is also correct.
The problem is does the OP take a chance.
I think the chance is small but can anyone confirm that?
Any stories of people getting in trouble for giving a member of the family a lift.

ianob7

It's an N1 vehicle which means commercial . It either was created and registered as an N1 or converted to crew at some stage . (More than likely the former) Tax commercially or tax privately on engine size .

The reason the co2 rate isn't an option is because the lower commercial rate of vrt was paid as opposed to private. Vrt is much higher on a private vehicle . Private vehicles then qualify for co2 rate of motor tax.

Yes you would have to complete an rf111a declaring only use for "work" but as many here have said plenty do this and use privately. Decision is yours ...

I would go back to the dealer and have a word . Explain you expected a private vehicle not a commercial one.

Hopefully this clarifies things for you

dbagman

GM228 wrote:

Why would you have an issue with customs?

Because if I get stopped when I'm quite obviously not using the car for business purposes as far as I'm aware they can impound it as been mentioned above, it hasn't had vrt paid to be a private vehicle. I'm not even sure if I can tax a crew cab without providing a tax clearance cert. Something which I dont have as I'm employed. Not to mention iv read i need to prove iv at least 3 staff in irder to qualify for a crew cab. This is a total ****ing mess. Iv been had by the dealer. He should of told me about this. All I can do is pay extorniate road tax to drive it privately as far as I can see. Iv always bought my cars on low road tax so this is sickening me.

dbagman

dbagman wrote: »

Because if I get stopped when I'm quite obviously not using the car for business purposes as far as I'm aware they can impound it as been mentioned above, it hasn't had vrt paid to be a private vehicle. I'm not even sure if I can tax a crew cab without providing a tax clearance cert. Something which I dont have as I'm employed. Not to mention iv read i need to prove iv at least 3 staff in irder to qualify for a crew cab. This is a total ****ing mess. Iv been had by the dealer. He should of told me about this. All I can do is pay extorniate road tax to drive it privately as far as I can see. Iv always bought my cars on low road tax so this is sickening me.

Tell them you are rushing home to a cow calving and the young fella is helping you.

To be honest I know an awful lot of people using commercials for private use, baby seats permanently in the back etc and I've never heard of a single person have any issue.

Del2005

dbagman wrote: »

Because if I get stopped when I'm quite obviously not using the car for business purposes as far as I'm aware they can impound it as been mentioned above, it hasn't had vrt paid to be a private vehicle. I'm not even sure if I can tax a crew cab without providing a tax clearance cert. Something which I dont have as I'm employed. Not to mention iv read i need to prove iv at least 3 staff in irder to qualify for a crew cab. This is a total ****ing mess. Iv been had by the dealer. He should of told me about this. All I can do is pay extorniate road tax to drive it privately as far as I can see. Iv always bought my cars on low road tax so this is sickening me.

So even if the dealer hadn't changed tax class you wouldn't be able to tax it. So you either pay the private rate or give it back to the dealer, depends on what you told the dealer you wanted it for if you can get a refund/replacement or take a loss.

K.Flyer

dbagman wrote: »

It was changed by the seller. That's what I'm trying to tel you. It doesn't change automatically. That's what they told me as I asked them exactly what iv asked here. Why is the car being taxed on its engine size and not on emissions or as a commercial. I wasn't aware you could tax a commercial as private or that a vehicle past 2008 could still be taxed on engine size. In effect I'm getting shafted both ways as I'm paying the full whack tax privately but I still have to test it every year

Hmmm.

I bought a van a couple of years ago. It had commercial tax, I had checked the registration book, as you do, and it was classified commercial, all good.
New reg book arrives here and classification has magically changed to Private!
I phoned the tax office and they told me that the default was Private until I completed the Garda declaration and brought it and my Commercial Insurance cert to the tax office and it would be changed there, otherwise I would have to pay the private rate.
So you either pay commercial tax rate if you have the correct commercial insurance cover and signed declaration and take your chances, or you pay the higher private rate, or get rid of the vehicle.

FUBO

ive driven vans all my life and use them for work and play never a problem with customs or gardai once its TAXED and INSURED & TESTED doesn't matter a damn they don't care
sell it if ur having so trouble with taxing it or just DRIVE IT ON

uck51js9zml2yt

dbagman wrote: »

But if I wanted to change it to a private vehicle how can I? Or can I? Like I said I use it for work most of the time and we have a second car. But it will be used outside of work the odd time. What are the consequences if I happen to be stopped with the young lad in the car??

Bring your log book to the MTO and change the class.

Isambard

FUBO wrote: »

ive driven vans all my life and use them for work and play never a problem with customs or gardai once its TAXED and INSURED & TESTED doesn't matter a damn they don't care
sell it if ur having so trouble with taxing it or just DRIVE IT ON

the time you might have problem is when something else brings you to their attention.