Ever increasing price of shooting.

Cass

Was reading an article, which i seem unable to find now, about how Boyds, ATI, Power Customs shop, and McMillan have all or are all pulling out of the UK market.

This seems to be down to a poor market performance and the cost of licenses and exporting fees making a few stocks to UK suppliers not worth the hassle.

While not an economist i also thing Brexit may have an effect on it with the value of Sterling some 14% lower than a year or two ago and UK suppliers caught between raising prices to offset this and needing to drop prices to maintain a viable market place.

We've this with other brands and products too. Sightron dealership in the UK was moved to another agent after the first could no longer sustain sales at the current price given the drop in the Sterling.

Ammo prices have been consistently on the rise for the last 9 to 12 months across nearly all calibers.

Wondering if we are going to see some European supplier step up and try fill the void that is ever expanding due to the goings on in the UK.

Witcher

I know from rimfire BR myself that RWS ammo has gone up massively in price over the last 12-18 months, was €9.50 a box now €11.50/12.50.

gunny123

The eastern european stuff isn't bad and is cheaper than the American ammo. The likes of ppu or s+b for instance, but i have noticed amongst irish shooters a snobbery towards those brands.

grassroot1

You would hope we could get European suppliers to import direct to Irish dealers/wholesalers instead of through the UK which has killed us in the past

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

The eastern european stuff isn't bad and is cheaper than the American ammo. The likes of ppu or s+b for instance, but i have noticed amongst irish shooters a snobbery towards those brands.

My choice has nothing to do with snobbery, but real world results and the eastern European stuff (or stuff mistakenly classed as such) is dirt. Few examples:

• Lad on the range one day with a 270. His groups were in the 2 - 3" mark at 100 yards and he'd blown through about 25+ rounds of the PPU. He cleaned out the rifle and tried 3 Hornady and you could not tell the difference between bullet holes in the target.
• Another lad at the HCAP some 2 years back. Failed it multiple times as he could not pass the grouping stage. He ran out of ammo (PPU) and i gave him 11 rounds of American Eagle. He used two for zeroing, and 9 for the test. Passed it first time with the better ammo. American eagle was €25, and the PPU €14. So for an additional €11 he went from not being able to group 6 inches at 100 yards to less than 2" (cannot tell how small as they were all in the 2" black centre).
• I have personally tried Barnaul, TulAmmo and Wolf ammo in 223. None of the three could group better than 2.5" at 100 yards in my semi auto and only two of three were safe to use in my bolt action, and they both grouped in the 1.75" range. With American Eagle, Hornady, Remington, etc. the same rifle were grouping half inch on average.

I was talking to a friend recently in America and he told me he was annoyed that the price of factory ammo had risen from $18 per box of 20 to $20 per box of 20. That was for Hornady match ammo in 308. I told him the say ammo here can cost over €42. To put it in the same terms the $20 ammo in America costs $49 here. Thats as close as you'll get to $30 (or €25) more per box.

And that is only one type from one manufacturer.

Now i know the American market is huge, there are no shipping or export fees, etc. but the same applies to firearms. Guns that cost $1,500 (€1,280) there and used to cost €1,550 here, now are selling for €2,200+ ($2,600) here but the price has not changed in the states. They are still $1,500 (€1,280). That means that somewhere in the last 18 months another €1,100 in costs has been added on by importers, suppliers, distributors, and RFDs.

So where is that cost coming from?

I'm not getting into yet another debate on costs for running a gun shop as it's been done to death. I'm looking to address the rise in price we have seen in Ireland when there has been no correspondent rise in America, Europe and most other countries.

Walter Mittys Brother

It's simple. Once anything here is/gets popular the price rises ! People continue to pay the inflated prices. It's basic economics. If the market will pay it it'll continue to rise until it doesn't sell as well.

I agree better quality ammo costs more. But at the end of the day if you're down the range shooting a few groups does a 1.75" group with cheap ammo mean much more than a .5" group at twice the price?

Once I know the gun will shoot .5" with say Hornady then if PPU only shoots 1.75" at half the price I'd rather shoot twice as much for the same cost.

Grizzly 45

One word for you...SHIPPING!
It is becoming harder and harder to find couriers and shipping companies that will move ammo and firearms across international airspace, borders and even in the so-called free trade zone of the EU.They need specialist insurance and paperwork to carry UN and to a lesser extent, EU classified dangerous goods.it is a game of reducing returns for most.Pay ridiculous insurance costs, in the hope of smaller returns of customers paying your high prices to move their ammo.It's a minority segment of any of the big shipping and postage companies business and not worth the hassle to them.

I can get in Germany EX NATO 9mm and 7.62 NATO for like 240 euro per thousand, less for 4 thousand rounds.But try as I might, there is no one who will ship it for under 300 euros..THIS is the problem our dealers have.It has to be shipped overland and twice by ship to Ireland and the shipping costs are mental and we pay for it, as our dealers need to make a few bob on this as well. Our problem will be with Brexit is the export costs out of the EU to England, and then BACK into the EU for Ireland..As the UK buys most of its ammo from the EU anyway.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

One word for you...SHIPPING!
It is becoming harder and harder to find couriers and shipping companies that will move ammo and firearms across international airspace, borders and even in the so-called free trade zone of the EU.They need specialist insurance and paperwork to carry UN and to a lesser extent, EU classified dangerous goods.it is a game of reducing returns for most.Pay ridiculous insurance costs, in the hope of smaller returns of customers paying your high prices to move their ammo.It's a minority segment of any of the big shipping and postage companies business and not worth the hassle to them.

I can get in Germany EX NATO 9mm and 7.62 NATO for like 240 euro per thousand, less for 4 thousand rounds.But try as I might, there is no one who will ship it for under 300 euros..THIS is the problem our dealers have.It has to be shipped overland and twice by ship to Ireland and the shipping costs are mental and we pay for it, as our dealers need to make a few bob on this as well. Our problem will be with Brexit is the export costs out of the EU to England, and then BACK into the EU for Ireland..As the UK buys most of its ammo from the EU anyway.

Isn't there ferries and cargo ships running between cork and France though ? Also why the crazy insurance costs and regulations ? Vast quantities of petrol, natural gas, diesel, fuel oil, chemicals etc are imported here, and to my mind are far more dangerous to transport than ammo. I cannot remember any issues, incidents or accidents with ammo being moved here.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Isn't there ferries and cargo ships running between cork and France though ? Also why the crazy insurance costs and regulations ? Vast quantities of petrol, natural gas, diesel, fuel oil, chemicals etc are imported here, and to my mind are far more dangerous to transport than ammo. I cannot remember any issues, incidents or accidents with ammo being moved here.

Very correct. You can blame the United Nations for most of the problem in the way they label ammo as dangerous goods or explosive products.That's what weird UN codes are on the shipping boxes... Once an insurance company hears that....Zip up goes the insurance quote.Plus you are putting it on a ferry, not a munitions ship.Despite there being how much petrol and LPG in campers etc, the pallet of shotgun ammo is as dangerous as 1000kg aerial bombs.

arrowloopboy

Re PPU,

We had a running joke that in order to purchase PPU ammo you should have to show proof of owing a tracking dog ,pure dirt ,but what ya expect for E18 for .270s ,they just won't group compared to Federal Premiums or RWSs ,granted their over E40 a box .Most guys are walking around with a bare minimum of 3 grands worth of stalking gear,why skimp on Ammo ,like buying a Range Rover Vogue and trying to run it on dirth green diesel !

Walter Mittys Brother

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Re PPU,

We had a running joke that in order to purchase PPU ammo you should have to show proof of owing a tracking dog ,pure dirt ,but what ya expect for E18 for .270s ,they just won't group compared to Federal Premiums or RWSs ,granted their over E40 a box .Most guys are walking around with a bare minimum of 3 grands worth of stalking gear,why skimp on Ammo ,like buying a Range Rover Vogue and trying to run it on dirth green diesel !

Wait until ye get married, have kids, a mortgage etc ye'll be glad of PPU then

john jameson

Walter Mittys Brother wrote:

Wait until ye get married, have kids, a mortgage etc ye'll be glad of PPU then

Never a truer word

gunny123

Used to shoot .22 hornet S&B in pre .223 days, i was just out of school and it was all i could afford. Out of a cz bolt action or new england arms single shot it was a tack driver, but all i heard from others was "its pure dirt, the barrel does be filthy after shooting it". A quick lick of solvent, a bore brush and a few patches and the barrel was as new again.

As for the PPU, i have not shot much of it, but i was talking to lads with milsurp rifles, usually .303 enfields and they love it.

Of course the solution to all this is to allow reloading generally, but i doubt thats going to happen any time soon.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

But at the end of the day if you're down the range shooting a few groups does a 1.75" group with cheap ammo mean much more than a .5" group at twice the price?

If i'm on the range just for some plinking and trigger time then cheap ammo is grand. For better accuracy obviously you have to spend more, but depending on the distance i'm shooting at i want something that will perform each and every time and that usually means paying for it.

However i'm not even on about the performance of the ammo its about the cost. The fact that the same stuff, with no price change in it's point of manufacture is getting more and more expensive. Fiocchi has gone up by nearly €10 per 50 box, and most ammo has gone up by a factor of 8 - 14%.

Its not just ammo, but equipment, accessories, firearms, as i outlined above. In some instances the items are actually getting cheaper, but by the time they get to us they're more expensive than before.

gunny123 wrote: »

Of course the solution to all this is to allow reloading generally, but i doubt thats going to happen any time soon.

Not likely as the legislation that was due by 2012 has not even been spoken about. Plus reloading doesn't save a huge amount of money for numerous reasons, but the ammo is of much better quality.

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

If i'm on the range just for some plinking and trigger time then cheap ammo is grand. For better accuracy obviously you have to spend more, but depending on the distance i'm shooting at i want something that will perform each and every time and that usually means paying for it.

I get that.

Cass wrote: »

However i'm not even on about the performance of the ammo its about the cost. The fact that the same stuff, with no price change in it's point of manufacture is getting more and more expensive. Fiocchi has gone up by nearly €10 per 50 box, and most ammo has gone up by a factor of 8 - 14%.

Its not just ammo, but equipment, accessories, firearms, as i outlined above. In some instances the items are actually getting cheaper, but by the time they get to us they're more expensive than before.

I refer you to my previous comment

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

It's simple. Once anything here is/gets popular the price rises ! People continue to pay the inflated prices. It's basic economics. If the market will pay it it'll continue to rise until it doesn't sell as well.

Cass

You're right about the price rising with popularity.

The article i mentioned at the start of the thread says that some of the specific causes for the manufacturers pulling out of the UK market was down to price drops.

I did not get it at first, but after reading it seems one seller would drop an item by say £10 to beat his competitors. Then another would drop £5, and another £10. Before long the product would bee selling at just over cost or at cost and no longer profitable to sell. As a result sellers would stop ordering and because of the smaller market place, coupled with a drop in sales, lead to the manufacturers pulling their product.

Here it is different. The sellers raise the price, and keep raising it until we simply won't or can't pay for it. They then stop getting it. Competition in this country is a joke and from watching online stores and visiting others i've noticed a trend in pricing whereby store/shops in a given area, parish, town, city or county seem to be very closely if not identically priced. Go outside of that area and prices change, but are similar to the exact same in that area.

Thing is if these suppliers consider the UK a small market, and they already don't ship directly to Ireland, what chance have we of seeing prices drop or come back down to reasonable prices.

The one thing, and i said it above, that really has me scratching my head is the Ruger Precision rifle. As i said above the price of the rifle has not changed from the manufacturer and is the same as it was a year or two ago in the states yet it has risen by about €700+ here in the same time period.

Now while Grizzly and others have made perfectly valid comments about the rising cost of shipping, etc. it does not account for the massive, and i mean massive, price hike. I seen it years ago with the Savage FTR rifle. When i came out it was just over €1,350 and one of the last ones i seen bought the lad paid €1,995 for it. €645 extra for the same rifle even though the price had not increased from the manufacturer.

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass, I'd agree 100% with what you said in you're last post. I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head !

Over the years I've found cartridges that do exactly what I need them to only to see the supply dry up and be replaced with other brands. There's never been a serious consistency of supply.

Grizzly 45

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Wait until ye get married, have kids, a mortgage etc ye'll be glad of PPU then

That is the death of any man's hobby and easy life anyway.
Stay single and have a grand life.:p

A modern-day fairy tale.
Once upon a time a guy asked a girl for her hand in marrige.The girl said no.So the guy was sad for awhile, but then his mates called round , they went on the piss and played around in Vegas
.The guy went fishing and hunting when he felt like it,and bought new guns and gear ,and had money in the bank, and rode his motorbike when he felt like it.He could have his mates round for poker sessions or beer and pizzas could also walk about in his Tshirt and jocks ,and burp and fart in his house whenever he felt so inclined.
The End.

john jameson

Grizzly 45 wrote:

A modern-day fairy tale. Once upon a time a guy asked a girl for her hand in marrige.The girl said no.So the guy was sad for awhile, but then his mates called round , they went on the piss and played around in Vegas .The guy went fishing and hunting when he felt like it,and bought new guns and gear ,and had money in the bank, and rode his motorbike when he felt like it.He could have his mates round for poker sessions or beer and pizzas could also walk about in his Tshirt and jocks ,and burp and fart in his house whenever he felt so inclined. The End.

Sounds fantastic