James Dyson announces new EV

Water John

See Dyson looking to enter similar market to Tesla.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/james-dyson-electric-car-2020

unkel

Knowing Dyson, he'll probably make an EV that works alright, looks extremely cool and costs twice what the Tesla costs. Maybe he should team up with Apple

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Knowing Dyson, he'll probably make an EV that works alright, looks extremely cool and costs twice what the Tesla costs. Maybe he should team up with Apple

He stated that it would be very expensive...

Water John

I took Tesla a while to get down to the everyday model. Looking at the same market as the S and X.

goz83

I bet Dyson will be cleaning up.......getting coat

DrPhilG

Cue all the "your car sucks" comments.

Wheety

Dyson‏Verified account @Dyson 17h17 hours ago
More
James Dyson just announced to @Dyson employees that we’ve begun work on a battery electric vehicle, due to launch in 2020.



£2bn investment. Hopes to have it on the road by 2020.

Going by the prices of their other products, this won't be cheap

Edit: He actually said it won't be cheap!

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/james-dyson-electric-car-2020

listermint

With Brexit on the horizon, you would hope there is a money in the UK to afford this, but i cant help but think his market will be the US.

I dont see his vision of local jobs locally in the UK coming from this, Production costs would be too high and like everything else he has done it will be shipped to South East Asia.

ssmith6287

I have a feeling EV's will be like the Mini disc. Great technology but there's already far superior being made in hydrogen that should overtake it

listermint

ssmith6287 wrote: »

I have a feeling EV's will be like the Mini disc. Great technology but there's already far superior being made in hydrogen that should overtake it

Yeah sorry but no.

unkel

ssmith6287 wrote: »

I have a feeling EV's will be like the Mini disc. Great technology but there's already far superior being made in hydrogen that should overtake it

10 years ago, some people, including Mercedes, Toyota, General Motors, Honda, BMW and myself, believed this was the case. We all now know there is no place for hydrogen in the foreseeable future (or ever really). EVs all the way...

Wheety

ssmith6287 wrote: »

I have a feeling EV's will be like the Mini disc. Great technology but there's already far superior being made in hydrogen that should overtake it

Nah, I can see huge investment in EV technology and in less than a decade you'll have range of 600km+. Every car company is getting involved now. We didn't see that with Hydrogen.

ted1

ssmith6287 wrote: »

I have a feeling EV's will be like the Mini disc. Great technology but there's already far superior being made in hydrogen that should overtake it

i can’t see that, I was at a Siemens conference last week and they were presenting both their hydrogen storage and batttery storage (about 5MW) they suggested both are about the same price and generally the battery is the easiest to implement but that hydrogen has an advantage due to excessive heat gulf region and in areas where hydrogen is needed , other than that batteries win

Wheety

Wheety wrote: »

............


£2bn investment...............

That seems small enough.
The Pfizer plant in Grange Castle in Dublin (Wyeth back then) was a €1bn back in early 00s and went to €1.7bn if I recall directly. And they didn't have to develop any products.

Shefwedfan

Augeo wrote: »

That seems small enough.
The Pfizer plant in Grange Castle in Dublin (Wyeth back then) was a €1bn back in early 00s and went to €1.7bn if I recall directly. And they didn't have to develop any products.

Seemingly they already invested 1 billion last year in battery technology, the batteries will be used for all its items but they will also use same technology in cars

The only thing I am shocked about is Dyson is UK company......I always thought it was Nordic :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Water John

Yes, but TMK, all his manufacturing is now in Malaysia.
He tried getting any of the makers interested in his vacuum tech, no one bit, so he went and made and sold them himself.
Think he mortgaged himself, including his house, to the proverbial bol....s, at the time.

oppenheimer1

Water John wrote: »

Yes, but TMK, all his manufacturing is now in Malaysia.
He tried getting any of the makers interested in his vacuum tech, no one bit, so he went and made and sold them himself.
Think he mortgaged himself, including his house, to the proverbial bol....s, at the time.

And is now the largest land owner in the UK

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Water John

Well his pro Brexit stand, certainly wasn't about creating British jobs for British people.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

10 years ago, some people, including Mercedes, Toyota, General Motors, Honda, BMW and myself, believed this was the case. We all now know there is no place for hydrogen in the foreseeable future (or ever really). EVs all the way...

I would normally agree with that, but now I'm not so sure. The problem (as I see it) is that established fuel companies in the current petrol and diesel market are cut out of the equation by EVs. EV owners never need to visit an existing filling station. Additionally, the state isn't collecting excise duty on electricity as a transport fuel.

A hydrogen infrastructure could change all that. If Topaz, Maxol, Shell etc decided tomorrow to fit a single hydrogen pump to all their filling stations it would create an overnight fueling infrastructure that would
a) sidestep the EV infrastructure deficit
b) keep all these companies in the loop
c) allow collection of duty on hydrogen
d) side-step home charging (and the money they don't make off it)
with the knock-on effect of giving us a 3 minute refuelling time.

So I dunno. If every filling station fitted just one hydrogen pump I think the whole balance would be tipped away from pure EVs.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

So I dunno. If every filling station fitted just one hydrogen pump I think the whole balance would be tipped away from pure EVs.

Wouldn't that have already happened in the likes of California if it were viable?


The electrical costs to generate tanks of the stuff is also a blocker, is it not?

bk

n97 mini, one of the major problems with Hydrogen is the cost. €10 per liter!

Stop and think about that, take your current Diesel bill and almost multiple it by 10!!

A €2000 a year Diesel bill would become about €16,000 per year!

Your electric bill for the same would be about €300 or so.

You can stick all the Hydrogen pumps you want in, no one is going to pay that for it. And BTW, you can't just stick a hydrogen pump in, it is a highly dangerous and complex to store. A Hydrogen pumping station will cost about 2 million to build, versus about 200k for your average petrol station. Also their are significant limitations on the number of cars each station can actually fuel each day. At a quick glance hydorgen looks similar to petrol/diesel, but when you get into the details, it quickly looks very different and in fact much more complicated to deliver then EV's

Truth is it is just very expensive and energy intensive to produce hydrogen and the most common way of producing hydrogen produces massive amounts of CO2.

It just doesn't add up. I've no doubt that the oil companies would love it, but at those sort of costs, it just doesn't look likely. It may well have a place in aviation, ships, trucks, etc. But I just don't see a future in it for cars.

peneau

Dyson EV "Now you're not sucking up diesel"

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Wouldn't that have already happened in the likes of California if it were viable?

The fuel companies aren't in real danger of being squeezed out of the market by BEVs in California... the uptake isn't anything like it is in some European countries. But my point is I don't think they're going to take being squeezed out lying down. There will be a reaction, but we just haven't seen it yet.

KCross wrote: »

The electrical costs to generate tanks of the stuff is also a blocker, is it not?

There are many different ways to generate hydrogen... I can be done from electrolysis to natural gas, and probably from oil and coal! I don't think we've seen any economies of scale yet though.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

There are many different ways to generate hydrogen... I can be done from electrolysis to natural gas, and probably from oil and coal! I don't think we've seen any economies of scale yet though.

Currently it is 99% from Natural Gas (thus the CO2 produced).

Doing so from solar is possible. But it takes about 3 times amount of power you put into it then you get out. Why do that when you can directly power the batteries instead!

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

The fuel companies aren't in real danger of being squeezed out of the market by BEVs in California... the uptake isn't anything like it is in some European countries. But my point is I don't think they're going to take being squeezed out lying down. There will be a reaction, but we just haven't seen it yet.



There are many different ways to generate hydrogen... I can be done from electrolysis to natural gas, and probably from oil and coal! I don't think we've seen any economies of scale yet though.

It would take a big u-turn by the manufacturers to stop BEV development and (re)start hydrogen development. Cant see it happening now.

Lots of manufacturers have jumped on the BEV bandwagon and lots have abandoned hydrogen (notable exception in Toyota) so I think the train has left the station for hydrogen in private cars.

Getting hydrogen stations setup is a classic chicken and egg. Do they set them up with no cars available or wait for manufacturers to develop them and then set them up.... the latter doesn't look at all likely now and you'd want to be crazy to spend 10s of millions (maybe 100s) in a hydrogen network upfront and thats just Ireland!

Too much momentum behind BEV now I think.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

I would normally agree with that, but now I'm not so sure. The problem (as I see it) is that established fuel companies in the current petrol and diesel market are cut out of the equation by EVs.

Your argument has a lot of natural merit, but when you see the likes of Shell starting to install EV fast chargers at their petrol stations and the likes of Bosch selling off divisions supplying ICE manufacturers (starter motors etc.) then you know the writing is on the wall for the internal combustion engine.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Your argument has a lot of natural merit, but when you see the likes of Shell starting to install EV fast chargers at their petrol stations and the likes of Bosch selling off divisions supplying ICE manufacturers (starter motors etc.) then you know the writing is on the wall for the internal combustion engine.

No doubt, but I'm talking fuel cell powered cars here (not that crap BMW Hydrogen 7 yoke which actually burned Hydrogen and got something like 7 mpg out of it).

I'd love to know what petrol station owners in Ireland think of BEVs and their future.

Water John

EVs are a market disruptor. I am not very concerned as to what petrol station owners of motor garages think. I would quite obviously be negative as the change will have negative effects on their business model.

The bigger picture is EVs are good for the environment combined with RE or nuclear sourced power.. Probably a lot more than has been admitted up to now.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Your argument has a lot of natural merit, but when you see the likes of Shell starting to install EV fast chargers at their petrol stations

Just looked up more details on this as I had missed it (was in the US). Shell operate over 1000 filling stations in the UK and they're installing CPs in.... 10!

Nate--IRL--

n97 mini wrote: »

No doubt, but I'm talking fuel cell powered cars here (not that crap BMW Hydrogen 7 yoke which actually burned Hydrogen and got something like 7 mpg out of it).

I'd love to know what petrol station owners in Ireland think of BEVs and their future.

Probably love it - customers will stay for 15 mins at the very least, more time to get their cash.

Nate

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Just looked up more details on this as I had missed it (was in the US). Shell operate over 1000 filling stations in the UK and they're installing CPs in.... 10!

10 years ago there were 2000 petrol stations in Ireland and 0 CPs. Now there are about 1000 of each. And we've only just started buying a few EVs

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Your argument has a lot of natural merit, but when you see the likes of Shell starting to install EV fast chargers at their petrol stations and the likes of Bosch selling off divisions supplying ICE manufacturers (starter motors etc.) then you know the writing is on the wall for the internal combustion engine.

https://electrek.co/2017/09/27/shell-new-electric-car-charging-gas-stations/

25p/kWh!

evolving_doors

n97 mini wrote: »

...



There are many different ways to generate hydrogen... I can be done from electrolysis to natural gas, and probably from oil and coal! I don't think we've seen any economies of scale yet though.

You can also take out 2 oxygens by boiling yer kettle twice.
Voila .... hydrogen left

4068ac1elhodqr

Funny was only reading about last week, also about an airline that may go bust during 2018.
The lad that wrote this, also forecast the Trump and the Brexitious last year.

Regarding the new e-car, thinks it will be a partnership with one of the $bn tech firms.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

10 years ago there were 2000 petrol stations in Ireland and 0 CPs. Now there are about 1000 of each. And we've only just started buying a few EVs

But crucially there is very little overlap. Those lads aren't gonna give up too easily! I can just see rural TDs' clinics now "You gotta do something about those electric yokes, they're gonna make me homeless"

listermint

Kylan Gray Hazel wrote: »

Funny was only reading about last week, also about an airline that may go bust during 2018.
The lad that wrote this, also forecast the Trump and the Brexitious last year.

Regarding the new e-car, thinks it will be a partnership with one of the $bn tech firms.

The UK will not thrive, you need a market to thrive. Wouldn't put stock in this last because he got a guess right

n97 mini

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Probably love it - customers will stay for 15 mins at the very least, more time to get their cash.

Nate

Etiquette at FCPs would tend to lean towards staying with/in your vehicle while it charges. People are also realising they buy crap they don't want while charging and have started to wise up (I'm leading that particular charge).

I believe a typical filling station will make 15c per litre of fuel sold. In my ICE that's €6.75 a fill. Gonna need to sell me a lot of coffee per stop to make up for that.

ted1

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

No doubt, but I'm talking fuel cell powered cars here (not that crap BMW Hydrogen 7 yoke which actually burned Hydrogen and got something like 7 mpg out of it).

I'd love to know what petrol station owners in Ireland think of BEVs and their future.

Probably love it - customers will stay for 15 mins at the very least, more time to get their cash.

Nate

Aren’t Tesla opening stores at their charging stations for that reason?


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2017/09/22/tesla-might-build-convenience-stores-at-its-charging-stations/

ted1

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

No doubt, but I'm talking fuel cell powered cars here (not that crap BMW Hydrogen 7 yoke which actually burned Hydrogen and got something like 7 mpg out of it).

I'd love to know what petrol station owners in Ireland think of BEVs and their future.

Probably love it - customers will stay for 15 mins at the very least, more time to get their cash.

Nate

Aren’t Tesla opening stores at their charging stations for that reason?


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2017/09/22/tesla-might-build-convenience-stores-at-its-charging-stations/

4068ac1elhodqr

listermint wrote: »

The UK will not thrive, you need a market to thrive. Wouldn't put stock in this last because he got a guess right

The airline was mentioned on the 22nd Sept, not sure if that was before a certain airlines 'schoolboy holiday scheduling error'.

Believe uk can thrive well, for a few reasons that that Oracle already alluded to in separate writings:

i) Trade with Ire will continue post-brexit, with a 'special circumstances trade deal' reached at the last minute.
ii) New trade deals will be reached with India/Aus/Nz/Can.
iii) The biggest of all trade deals, with be reached with the US.
iv) The Euro will get a kick in the nuts, thanks to the continuing Italian bank bailouts, think Greece ...but much larger. Italian foreclosures will increase.
v) They are very well positioned for the 4th Ind Rev. The discovery of graphene is an example, emergence of robotics courses, and of course folks such as Dyson.

Back on topic, Jaguar Land Rover is also set to offer an all electric power train from 2020 on-wards. Perhaps they may be the prestige label that will offer a mass consumer product.

Side note: The JLR boss this month predicted that autonomous and electrified cars will create massive social change, citing the 'UK’s 250,000 lorry drivers' ­being made obsolete by self-driving trucks convoys.

thierry14

Wheety wrote: »

Nah, I can see huge investment in EV technology and in less than a decade you'll have range of 600km+. Every car company is getting involved now. We didn't see that with Hydrogen.

Will be battery breakthrough in next 10 years imo

Alot speculating that Dyson have already made this breakthrough with solid state batteries, hence entry to car market

Water John

Well, from other threads it looks like the avg EV will take about 4 mins to charge with long range EVs, about 12 mins, once we go to full FCP.
I think we have the tech whereby your phone lets you know when your car is charged. No need to babysit it.

Interesting if Dyson has made a battery tech breakthrough.

zilog_jones

KCross wrote: »

Lots of manufacturers have jumped on the BEV bandwagon and lots have abandoned hydrogen (notable exception in Toyota) so I think the train has left the station for hydrogen in private cars.

Toyota are committed to having a BEV ready for 2020. Honda (who also have a FCV available in some markets) have already launched a BEV version of the Clarity in certain markets.

thierry14 wrote: »

Alot speculating that Dyson have already made this breakthrough with solid state batteries, hence entry to car market

Solid-state batteries look like they'll be the next major breakthrough - they will hopefully solve a lot of problems with safety and durability of current Li-ion tech.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

Toyota are committed to having a BEV ready for 2020. Honda (who also have a FCV available in some markets) have already launched a BEV version of the Clarity in certain markets.

Indeed, but only because they have been dragged kicking and screaming. They ultimately want Fuel Cells to win out because thats where all their money is gone rather than because its the right thing to do...

https://electrek.co/2017/09/28/toyota-mazda-denso-electric-car-plans-with-new-joint-venture/

KCross

There is a nice diagram in this article which compares efficiency of fuel cell to EV.
https://electrek.co/2016/04/26/automakers-fuel-cell-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/

thierry14

Water John wrote: »

Interesting if Dyson has made a battery tech breakthrough.

I'm surprised the battery experts here have been talking about it

Well guys whats the story with solid state batteries?

Reading on some forums that they have these batteries in wireless hoovers already

Water John

I'd have my doubts. There would be patents. Lot of higher end uses than putting them in hoovers.

listermint

I have massive doubts. If Dyson had any direction on ssb the they would have made some way into their cordless tech. And those batteries are awful. Very short span.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

There is a nice diagram in this article which compares efficiency of fuel cell to EV.
https://electrek.co/2016/04/26/automakers-fuel-cell-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/

Maybe a mod could split out the posts about BEV vs Fuel Cell? I think it's a discussion worth having on its own.

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

Well guys whats the story with solid state batteries?

There's lots of lab work going on around them. They face some issues at the moment caused by the very fact that the electrolyte is solid, varies by chemistry but the basic issues include slow charge and discharge rates and excessive parasitic reactions along the boundary between the electrolyte and electrodes (i.e. degradation in power output or capacity or both). Solid state is one of those things you'd expect to be worked out with a lot of R&D money and ~10 years of development and small scale manufacturing.

Another point is that since small electronics are higher margin any fundamental battery "breakthrough" that actually pans out you'd expect to see in the €1000 Galaxy S12 or whatever first rather than an EV battery 7000 times it's capacity.

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe a mod could split out the posts about BEV vs Fuel Cell? I think it's a discussion worth having on its own.

I don't think there's enough of a split in the discussion to justify that yet.