RAS lease has ended !!!

nickolamo

Hi - My 5 year lease ended with the 'LL last March 2017 , I received my termination and declaration notice from the 'LL as did the co, council in February 2016 ... The declaration stated from the 23rd September (today) the notice period is up ... The cc have told me they have no-were to house me as of yet , to stay put and leave the 'LL to them that they will continue to pay him week by week basis ... The thing is , tonight he knocked at 10.00 looking for the keys .... I had explained what the cc had said to me , surprised that he was unaware of this , and naturally he was upset to find this out expecally if he has a buyer for the property ... he also mentioned getting a solicitor, not sure if his intention is sending me a solicitor letter ? .... As far am I'm aware his dealings are with the cc and not ME ! ... Can a landlord serve me an eviction letter or worse evict me on the spot ? Do I have any rights now that the declaration says from the 23rd the notice ends and I have to leave ? Does he have any right to tell me to leave even though I am a ras tennent ? should this situation be resolved with the cc and the 'LL?

Any advice would be appreciated. ... cheers 😓

The_Conductor

Nicolamo- you *need* to get immediate legal advice.

You don't have a right to remain in the property- I'm not even sure if your continued stay comes under the RTA- as the landlord has a contract with the local authority- not with you. The timescales the landlord have given are appropriate- and it would appear he/she has done everything above board. They had a reasonable expectation of vacant possession before midnight last night. The landlord has no longer got any contractual agreement with the local authority- as it has expired- and there is no legal means or basis for the local authority to imagine they can continue their previous RAS agreement on a week-by-week basis- contrary to what the local authority asserted to you.

You need legal advice- and not advice from this forum or other people on the internet- proper legal advice- and ASAP. You also need to inform the local authority immediately that they have not made accommodation provision for you- which they obviously haven't.

Its a horrible situation to be in- the local authority are the people at fault here- not you, and not the landlord.

You need proper legal advice- not Threshold or an advocacy group- proper legal advice- and you need to insist the local authority source accommodation for you immediately.

nickolamo

Hi and thank you .... I most certainly will come Monday morning .

ED E

The CC won't have anywhere so the chances are you will need to vacate, present as homeless and enter emergency accommodation. That's the "system" but remaining isn't fair on the landlord.

GGTrek

A RAS contract is still a private contract between a landlord and a tenant where the only thing the council really does is to guarantee the rent payment (they act as rent guarantoor unlike HAP). As any contract where the council is involved all risks (except rent payments in this case) are on the landlord side, which will have to go to the RTB to evict an overholding tenant like the OP, council might decide to wash its hands until an order to vacate from RTB arrives after several months (in the UK councils policy is to wait until bailiffs arrive and tenants are forcibly removed! Civil servants are all the same everywhere!). Again and again landlords with business acumen should avoid any involvement with public authorities since their T&C are all one sided and do not make any rational business sense.

More info:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/social-housing/rental-accommodation-scheme/rental-accommodation-scheme-information-tenants

The_Conductor

GGTrek wrote: »

A RAS contract is still a private contract between a landlord and a tenant where the only thing the council really does is to guarantee the rent payment (they act as rent guarantoor unlike HAP). As any contract where the council is involved all risks (except rent payments in this case) are on the landlord side, which will have to go to the RTB to evict an overholding tenant like the OP, council might decide to wash its hands until an order to vacate from RTB arrives after several months (in the UK councils policy is to wait until bailiffs arrive and tenants are forcibly removed! Civil servants are all the same everywhere!). Again and again landlords with business acumen should avoid any involvement with public authorities since their T&C are all one sided and do not make any rational business sense.

More info:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/social-housing/rental-accommodation-scheme/rental-accommodation-scheme-information-tenants

The OP *needs* proper legal advice.
There are over a dozen different RAS contracts in common use among the local authorities- as the different local authorities in their infinite wisdom chose to modify the 'model RAS tenancy agreement' they were given by the Department. It is not a given that the OP has a contract with the landlord- of any nature- or that the local authority is not the landlord with a long term lease from the owner.

RAS is a nightmare for the Department- who are retiring it in its entirety- in favour of a standard HAP scheme- which the local authorities do not have any liberty to modify or deviate from, save with the express permission of the Department.

OP- get proper legal advice ASAP. Do not rely on anything you read on the internet- get proper advice.

handlemaster

Again the landlord left to carry the can and deal with the mess.

nickolamo

Looking from the 'LL perspective I understand his frustration .... When he signed the contract did he read into every angle of a termanation? or just his own end of things ? I understand the cc can and will keep me here till they find me suitable accomadation ! They'll be only delighted to here he is going through the rtb gives the cc more time . This is awful situation for both the tennent and the 'LL. The 'LL approached me with the ras in the beginning ... the dwelling had no maintenance in 5 yrs as a result it didn't pass the safety requirements and when approached by the cc to fix the property he then in turn handed me a termanation .

Graham

nickolamo wrote: »

I understand the cc can and will keep me here till they find me suitable accomadation !

Without wishing to add to your stress, don't count on that unless/until you have received legal advice from a legal professional.

nickolamo

I am going to see a solicitor in the morning and from there straight to the cc .... they should of at least got in touch with the 'LL ... absolutely despite !

Pkiernan

What have you been doing since getting your notice in FEBRUARY?
Why weren't you out looking then?

Another landlord getting shafted.

nickolamo

Because I am a ras tennant .....

The_Conductor

Pkiernan wrote: »

What have you been doing since getting your notice in FEBRUARY?
Why weren't you out looking then?

Another landlord getting shafted.

Presumably the OP was- and failed to find anything?
Anyhow- its moot- the landlord is entitled to vacant possession of the property.
The only question is which hoops he/she is made jump through before they actually get their property back.
Currently- the RTB advise overholding cases are heard in a maximum of 12 weeks (which seems to be wishful thinking to me- however, thats what they're saying).

The local authority appear to be playing ostrich here- and if they have actually said what the OP says they said- someone in there is probably going to be picking up a P45.

The Student

If the council are the lease holders then the landlord should sue the council after the rtb case. No wonder landlords are leaving the market.

hdowney

nickolamo wrote: »

Because I am a ras tennant .....

Being a RAS tennant doesn't mean you should have just sat there since Feb and assumed the council would sort you. It's your responsibility also.

nickolamo

Actually it does .... Being a ras tennant means , when you sign the contract you are removed from the cc list - signing that you are now tennent of the cc ... and signing that you will never be homeless .

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

If the council are the lease holders then the landlord should sue the council after the rtb case. No wonder landlords are leaving the market.

It's absolute desperate for 'LL ... 100% agree . The cc are waiting on the 'LL to go to the rtb , just so they can keep me here for a further 3 months.

The_Conductor

nickolamo wrote: »

It's absolute desperate for 'LL ... 100% agree . The cc are waiting on the 'LL to go to the rtb , just so they can keep me here for a further 3 months.

Keep in mind- exactly 3 months- is Christmas eve..........
You really need to take a proactive approach to ensure you're housed- rather than leaving it up to the RTB to try and put some smacht on the local authority.

Also- the RTB undertake to hear over-holding cases 'within 12 weeks'- aka- it could be in 12 weeks time- or it could be at any time between now and then.

The whole situation is nutty. The local authority should be ashamed of themselves for putting you and the landlord in the positions you're both in.

nickolamo

The_Conductor wrote: »

Keep in mind- exactly 3 months- is Christmas eve..........
You really need to take a proactive approach to ensure you're housed- rather than leaving it up to the RTB to try and put some smacht on the local authority.

Also- the RTB undertake to hear over-holding cases 'within 12 weeks'- aka- it could be in 12 weeks time- or it could be at any time between now and then.

The whole situation is nutty. The local authority should be ashamed of themselves for putting you and the landlord in the positions you're both in.

I have been down countless times - on the phone with direct lines to ras section ... Being brought in for interviewing on the 11th August . Told the same story over and over .... except last week I got a call from the "head" person saying to STOP ringing that to stay put that he will deal with the 'LL .... It's an absolute disgrace the position we both are in .

The Student

I expect the council will try buy the property from the landlord.

GGTrek

The Student wrote: »

If the council are the lease holders then the landlord should sue the council after the rtb case. No wonder landlords are leaving the market.

If the council was the leaseholder then things change dramatically in legal terms since most likely RTA would not apply with council acting as the landlord and taking all the risks (i.e. subletting the dwelling to a tenant) which would give a really strong hand to the landlord. See Section 3(2) of the RTA:

"(2) Subject to section 4 (2), this Act does not apply to any of the following dwellings— ... (c) a dwelling let by or to—(i) a public authority, or"

This is how RAS was really supposed to work, I lease the dwelling to the public authority for a long fixed term at below market rate and I do not have to worry about anything, I am not subject to RTA and RTB crazy regulations and at the end of the fixed term the council returns the property to me vacant and in the same state I handed over it. This is very similar to a commercial lease, if the counterparty (i.e. the council) screws up, you can sue their sorry a...s in a proper court (depending on amount of damage) and they will have to pay all landlord's costs (including legal ones). That is why the councils usually do everything possible to avoind being the leaseholder, that's why they love schemes like HAP instead of building social housing: civil servants do not like risks, they like to be in command and tell others what to do by issuing badly thought out rules and regulations (which of course do not affect them). The hate having skin in the game.

As said previously the OP needs to see urgently a solicitor to check the lease and see who is the tenant and what conditions are stated (probably should have been done sooner).

The_Conductor

The Student wrote: »

I expect the council will try buy the property from the landlord.

Don't bet on it.
The council will have to buy on the open market- and the landlord has obvious interest from others. Councils are not buyers of last resort- and will have to pay top dollar if the area is anyway desireable- which I'm guessing it is...........

The RAS section in the council- really deserve to have their arses in slings- over cases like yours.

The Student

I would be very interested to see how this works out. As I am involved in a RAS lease.

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

I would be very interested to see how this works out. As I am involved in a RAS lease.

Are you a 'LL or tennant ? I will of course keep updates .

The Student

A landlord.

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

A landlord.

Thank you .... I will keep you posted .

The Student

Cheers.

wordofwarning

The_Conductor wrote: »

You need proper legal advice- not Threshold or an advocacy group- proper legal advice- and you need to insist the local authority source accommodation for you immediately.

Emphasis on the proper advice OP. Someone on boards a few weeks ago got seriously burnt when a certain homeless charity gave them back advice. Get proper legal advice and don't listen to what a certain homeless charity will tell you to do

The Student

wordofwarning wrote: »

Emphasis on the proper advice OP. Someone on boards a few weeks ago got seriously burnt when a certain homeless charity gave them back advice. Get proper legal advice and don't listen to what a certain homeless charity will tell you to do

I would definitely agree with this. I suspect I know the homeless charity and its not the first time they have given questionable advice.

nickolamo

wordofwarning wrote: »

Emphasis on the proper advice OP. Someone on boards a few weeks ago got seriously burnt when a certain homeless charity gave them back advice. Get proper legal advice and don't listen to what a certain homeless charity will tell you to do

The whole situation has deteriorated even further with the 'LL ... the 'LL blaming me on this situation . I'm gonna go straight to the cc in the morning ... my 'LL lives next door , you can only imagine the animosity at the moment !

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

The whole situation has deteriorated even further with the 'LL ... the 'LL blaming me on this situation . I'm gonna go straight to the cc in the morning ... my 'LL lives next door , you can only imagine the animosity at the moment !

I suspect you had a good relationship with your landlord up to now. Explain to the landlord that you are going to the council tomorrow and keep him informed. You may need a reference from him.

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

I suspect you had a good relationship with your landlord up to now. Explain to the landlord that you are going to the council tomorrow and keep him informed. You may need a reference from him.

I have tried .... they point blank ignored me this evening . I did yes have a good relationship with them , gutted with the whole situation .

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

I have tried .... they point blank ignored me this evening . I did yes have a good relationship with them , gutted with the whole situation .

Well then try to get a good nights sleep as I think you will have a tough day tomorrow. If I were you I would consider sending your landlord a text advising them you are trying to get the situation resolved.

piplip87

nickolamo wrote:

Actually it does .... Being a ras tennant means , when you sign the contract you are removed from the cc list - signing that you are now tennent of the cc ... and signing that you will never be homeless .

No it actually does not mean that. I know for a fact here I'm Cavan when your lease is coming to an end, it is solely upto the Tennant to find a place and approach the LL about the RDS scheme.

nickolamo

piplip87 wrote: »

No it actually does not mean that. I know for a fact here I'm Cavan when your lease is coming to an end, it is solely upto the Tennant to find a place and approach the LL about the RDS scheme.

Yes it does , that's why (not only) the HAP was introduced so the cc are not obliged to re-house tennents, been on ras has that security (currently not in this situation) ! I understand every cc has it's own ras hap contracts . maybe yours is differiant from mine ?
I had understud my contract when I signed it. term/conditions ... and they were advised to me again by the cc recently. We see what happens tomorrow .

nickolamo

nickolamo wrote: »

Yes it does , that's why (not only) the HAP was introduced so the cc are not obliged to re-house tennents, been on ras has that security (currently not in this situation) ! I understand every cc has it's own ras hap contracts . maybe yours is differiant from mine ?
I had understud my contract when I signed it. term/conditions ... and they were advised to me again by the cc recently. We see what happens tomorrow .

Do you mind me asking when you became a tennent on ras? I am ras tennant long time maybe things in the contract have changed ?

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

Do you mind me asking when you became a tennent on ras? I am ras tennant long time maybe things in the contract have changed ?

The only way t&cs can change is if you were notified and agreed to them. I understand RAS is closed to new applicants all over. My advice is to make sure you stay on the RAS and dont accept HAP.

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

The only way t&cs can change is if you were notified and agreed to them. I understand RAS is closed to new applicants all over. My advice is to make sure you stay on the RAS and dont accept HAP.

I had asked thus question at the interview , she told me I was a ras tennent and there was no way I could end up on the HAP .... saying that -they also said I wouldn't be in this predicament either .

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

I had asked thus question at the interview , she told me I was a ras tennent and there was no way I could end up on the HAP .... saying that -they also said I wouldn't be in this predicament either .

I doubt they will have any RAS properties available to move you too. I suspect they will suggest you go on HAP. My advice would be to read your lease to make sure it is between the landlord and the council. If it is then let the council and the landlord work it out but I would also suggest you try build a bridge with the landlord. I appreciate you have tried already but you need him on your side.

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

I doubt they will have any RAS properties available to move you too. I suspect they will suggest you go on HAP. My advice would be to read your lease to make sure it is between the landlord and the council. If it is then let the council and the landlord work it out but I would also suggest you try build a bridge with the landlord. I appreciate you have tried already but you need him on your side.

The cc had told me I would end up what ever is available at the time of termanation . she told me their are 3 possibilitys ... council house , ras or another form of social housing with at least 10yrs lease . Maybe it's too soon to approach the 'LL , clearly they are very upset as to what's happening . No doubt they will seek legal advice before talking with me .

nickolamo

nickolamo wrote: »

The cc had told me I would end up what ever is available at the time of termanation . she told me their are 3 possibilitys ... council house , ras or another form of social housing with at least 10yrs lease . Maybe it's too soon to approach the 'LL , clearly they are very upset as to what's happening . No doubt they will seek legal advice before talking with me .

They have every right to be upset ... I have no issue talking with them , if I got the chance!

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

The cc had told me I would end up what ever is available at the time of termanation . she told me their are 3 possibilitys ... council house , ras or another form of social housing with at least 10yrs lease . Maybe it's too soon to approach the 'LL , clearly they are very upset as to what's happening . No doubt they will seek legal advice before talking with me .

I do hope you get one of the three scenairo's you list. I would have thought the council would have had something ready before yesterday knowing yesterday was the termination date.. If the matter is resolved tomorrow you should advise the landlord straight away. The cc should but just in case they dont do it straight away. The landlord will appreciate it.

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

They have every right to be upset ... I have no issue talking with them , if I got the chance!

Text him.

nickolamo

The Student wrote: »

I do hope you get one of the three scenairo's you list. I would have thought the council would have had something ready before yesterday knowing yesterday was the termination date.. If the matter is resolved tomorrow you should advise the landlord straight away. The cc should but just in case they dont do it straight away. The landlord will appreciate it.

The family were in the garden tonight while I was coming in with my children and they just staired at us ... that's when I tried to approach them ... tensions are rising , I would only be delighted to give them some good news tomorrow for them and for me !

I am in full time employment , my mum minds my children after school in her house - could he by law change the locks while I'm at work ?

The Student

nickolamo wrote: »

The family were in the garden tonight while I was coming in with my children and they just staired at us ... that's when I tried to approach them ... tensions are rising , I would only be delighted to give them some good news tomorrow for them and for me !

I am in full time employment , my mum minds my children after school in her house - could he by law change the locks while I'm at work ?

nickolamo wrote: »

The family were in the garden tonight while I was coming in with my children and they just staired at us ... that's when I tried to approach them ...

I am not familiar enough with the law but I dont think he could change the locks. In my opinion changing the locks would be an illegal eviction. The RTB is there to prevent illegal evictions. Although based on the detail you have given if he goes to the RTB it would only be a formality as he has done everything by the book. I would have thought he would need a court order to have you removed although you need to get advice from the cc in the first instance and failing that citizens advice.

endacl

The_Conductor wrote: »

Local authority ... going to be picking up a P45.

G’wan outta dat. That’s not how’s we do things here...

endacl

The Student wrote: »

Well then try to get a good nights sleep as I think you will have a tough day tomorrow. If I were you I would consider sending your landlord a text advising them you are trying to get the situation resolved.

But it’s not the landlords problem. A resolution to the situation is an empty house.

nickolamo

endacl wrote: »

But it’s not the landlords problem. A resolution to the situation is an empty house.

The house has a potential buyer ... It won't empty !

nickolamo

endacl wrote: »

G’wan outta dat. That’s not how’s we do things here...

HI - how does this work ??

The Student

endacl wrote: »

But it’s not the landlords problem. A resolution to the situation is an empty house.

Nor is it the tenants. It's the systems or lack thereof.

The_Conductor

nickolamo wrote: »

I had asked thus question at the interview , she told me I was a ras tennent and there was no way I could end up on the HAP .... saying that -they also said I wouldn't be in this predicament either .

RAS is only designed to be a short-term scheme for tenants who it is anticipated will be a position to house themselves at some point in the future. HAP- on the other hand- is for long term rentals- for those unlikely to be able to house themselves.

RAS is closed off for new tenants- and as RAS contracts come up for renewal, tenants are normally herded onto HAP schemes- as the intention is to fully wind down the RAS schemes- which are causing a nightmare for the housing Department.

It most certainly is not the case that if you're a RAS tenant that you won't end up on HAP- and whoever told you this- has no idea of the two schemes- or is being deliberately obtuse with you.