4-way stop junctions in Ireland

plodder

They are very common in the US, but I couldn't believe my eyes when I came across the junction below near Kilcullen, Co. Kildare recently.

Apparently, the rules are different for them here, as opposed to the US, where all traffic has to stop (as in actually stop) and you proceed in order of who stopped first. But, the rule here is that you give way to the right, which kind of removes the incentive to stop. They are very effective in the US at calming traffic, but I think it's fair to say, not that popular. Will the idea work here?



http://kilcullenbridge.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/be-careful-milemill-cross-now-4-way-stop.html

L1011

The rules here are that everyone stops. The person quoting the ROTR there is quoting a bit of text that deals with unsigned junctions and even says its not the rules for a 4 way stop.

If you don't stop, you are breaking the law due to the presence of the stop sign and can be fined.

This isn't the only one in Ireland, there's one on the way in to Drumconrath in County Meath also.

discodaveirl

On outside Mountmellick in Laois, go towards Portlaoise turn right and right again, under railway and up to 4way stop junction

plodder

L1011 wrote: »

The rules here are that everyone stops. The person quoting the ROTR there is quoting a bit of text that deals with unsigned junctions and even says its not the rules for a 4 way stop.

If you don't stop, you are breaking the law due to the presence of the stop sign and can be fined.

This isn't the only one in Ireland, there's one on the way in to Drumconrath in County Meath also.

Yeah, the rule is that everyone is supposed to stop, but nobody (other than learners) does that when they think they have right of way. In the US, you have to stop to know who has right of way. There's an important difference there.

There was nobody else around when I went through. I'd be curious if anyone else has used one when there was traffic.

murphthesmurf

Stupid idea. Just results in 4 cars sitting at each junction scratching their heads because they all have someone to their right. Then everyone tries to go at once.
The idea of whoever stopped first is stupid too, 2 of you pull out and collide how can you possibly prove who stopped 1st and had right of way? Car insurance would double again with the number of accidents. Traffic islands work much better imo.

cml387

discodaveirl wrote: »

On outside Mountmellick in Laois, go towards Portlaoise turn right and right again, under railway and up to 4way stop junction

I stopped there once and got a huge bellow of horn from the guy behind me.:rolleyes:

plodder

murphthesmurf wrote: »

The idea of whoever stopped first is stupid too, 2 of you pull out and collide how can you possibly prove who stopped 1st and had right of way? Car insurance would double again with the number of accidents. Traffic islands work much better imo.

Collisions are uncommon though, because you have both actually stopped first.

murphthesmurf

plodder wrote: »

Collisions are uncommon though, because you have both actually stopped first.

This is Ireland though, Mick will chance his arm and plough through you while he talks on the phone to Mary. Then tell the Gards he was there 1st and he's a terrible pain in his neck from when you hit him.

Middle Man

cml387 wrote: »

I stopped there once and got a huge bellow of horn from the guy behind me.:rolleyes:

Well, he'll need to redo his driving test won't he? I mean come on - not knowing what a stop sign means...

plodder

murphthesmurf wrote: »

This is Ireland though, Mick will chance his arm and plough through you while he talks on the phone to Mary. Then tell the Gards he was there 1st and he's a terrible pain in his neck from when you hit him.

Yeah, while I think the American way makes sense (in America), I'm sceptical the idea works here at all. Irish drivers just don't know what a stop sign means. I think I mentioned before when my daughter was learning to drive, there were all kinds of hair-raising situations (some downright dangerous) where she had to do it by the book, and other drivers aren't expecting that. Stopping at stop signs when there's no other traffic around was one of them. A colleague of mine was fined by the police in France for failing to stop at a stop sign in rural France. He was convinced it was a scam, as nothing like that would ever happen here :rolleyes:

Middle Man wrote:

Well, he'll need to redo his driving test won't he? I mean come on - not knowing what a stop sign means...

Not to labour the point, but I think most people believe that a stop sign when there's no traffic around, means - slow down a good bit to make sure, and if being extra careful, then almost come to a stop. But, I rarely see anyone actually stopping.

murphthesmurf

plodder wrote: »

Yeah, while I think the American way makes sense (in America), I'm sceptical the idea works here at all. Irish drivers just don't know what a stop sign means. I think I mentioned before when my daughter was learning to drive, there were all kinds of hair-raising situations (some downright dangerous) where she had to do it by the book, and other drivers aren't expecting that. Stopping at stop signs when there's no other traffic around was one of them. A colleague of mine was fined by the police in France for failing to stop at a stop sign in rural France. He was convinced it was a scam, as nothing like that would ever happen here :rolleyes:

I was behind an old fella once in a Fiesta, we were coming down a slip road to join the Athlone bypass. When we got near end of slip road he slowed down and stopped. I could see him clearly all the way down slip road and he never once checked his mirrors, just came to a stop put his indicator on and waited until nothing was coming. It's not like the bypass or motorway is new, it's been there years and he still had no idea what to do. At the other end of the spectrum a few days ago in Athlone again, I was coming down a slip road to join bypass behind a few cars. As I checked my mirror there was a fuel tanker in the 1st lane with cars on the outside of him. He had his indicator on to move over but couldn't, I slowed down to slip into the gap behind him. The car infront thought there was no need for any of that and just pulled in front of him. He braked hard as she wasn't going fast enough to merge and ojly just managed to avoid hitting her.
I do a lot of driving, and there are times when I see people do things on the road and I think to myself 'wow! I've never seen anyone do that before'

murphthesmurf

Do you have any traffic islands in USA? I've never been there and never seen them on any of the US films/tv series.

plodder

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Do you have any traffic islands in USA? I've never been there and never seen them on any of the US films/tv series.

If you mean roundabouts, I've never seen one, but I believe they exist in some places.

vicwatson

plodder wrote: »

If you mean roundabouts Rotarys I've never seen one, but I believe they exist in some places.

.

naughtysmurf

They do seem to work well in the states but there is a reasonable chance you will get a ticket if you don't stop with cops regularly stationed close to one I'd be familiar with, here probably much less of a chance of it so I think a roundabout is a better solution overall & yes while not common, roundabouts or Rotary's are becoming more common in the US, tbh at a busy 4 way, I find it hard to remember when it's my turn

irlcad

Here in Ontario there are dozens of 4-way stops in every town I've been in, with the odd roundabout.

Difference is, everyone stops at the 4-way. Sure two cars can attempt to go at the same time but you dont leave these junctions by laying down rubber, you kind of crawl out.

The cops often hide near stop signs, checking that people stop.

Just not sure all this would work well in Ireland!

loyatemu

one here in Killiney. I came down the hill from Killiney village on the bike thinking that road went straight through, nearly slammed into the back of a van that had stopped at the junction. Scared the hell out of myself (entirely my own fault).

Danno

There is one here... https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.8637146,-7.3540611,3a,75y,191.72h,80.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sckoKa6_fl2pEY_6rXRDcdQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DckoKa6_fl2pEY_6rXRDcdQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D67.083664%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

...in very rural Laois. Although that streetview does not show the four stop signs, they are there now. I thought it was a one-off solution to a tight junction, and being off the beaten track it would never be noticed. It's a four-way stop for around three years now.

Subpopulus

loyatemu wrote: »

one here in Killiney. I came down the hill from Killiney village on the bike thinking that road went straight through, nearly slammed into the back of a van that had stopped at the junction. Scared the hell out of myself (entirely my own fault).

Yikes. I'm pretty sure I went barreling through that junction a few months back. Don't remember the signs at all.

Mini roundabouts would make more sense than four way stops, the rules of right of way are clearer with roundabouts than all stop and guessing who goes next.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

scamalert

plenty of them over the Ireland so not sure how OP is surprised.

they work well all over EU as well.

I find them a lot better say in Dublin then roundabouts given that you dont need to triple check mirrors and be on edge that someone who took wrong lane wouldn't decide to start jumping over lane mid way to reach their exit.

junctions without traffic lights can cause some jams specially if they merge into busy roads but with all that said if you passed your driving theory you should be well able to know the rules who has right to go first second third on them.

plodder

scamalert wrote: »

plenty of them over the Ireland so not sure how OP is surprised.

they work well all over EU as well.

Driving thirty years, and first time I saw one was a few months ago. I don't think they are that common.

Where else are they used in the EU? Can you show some examples?

Not sure about mini-roundabouts though. There's one I use sometimes where the local custom seems to be, like the US 4-way junctions - who gets there first, except you don't stop. Dangerous!

patww79 wrote:

They work well in the US because people just normally take turns and accept that's the way it's done. Would never ever work properly here.

IMO, it works that way in the US because that's the rule - which is my point really, that we should use the same rule here if we want multi-way stop junctions.

exaisle

"...he had the right of way, but I had the tractor..." :-)

murphaph

plodder wrote: »

Yeah, while I think the American way makes sense (in America), I'm sceptical the idea works here at all. Irish drivers just don't know what a stop sign means. I think I mentioned before when my daughter was learning to drive, there were all kinds of hair-raising situations (some downright dangerous) where she had to do it by the book, and other drivers aren't expecting that. Stopping at stop signs when there's no other traffic around was one of them. A colleague of mine was fined by the police in France for failing to stop at a stop sign in rural France. He was convinced it was a scam, as nothing like that would ever happen here :rolleyes:


Not to labour the point, but I think most people believe that a stop sign when there's no traffic around, means - slow down a good bit to make sure, and if being extra careful, then almost come to a stop. But, I rarely see anyone actually stopping.

To be honest this stems from a massive over use of stop signs in Ireland. Take a look at UK or German roads and you'll find far more yield signs and far fewer stop signs. In Ireland they erect stop signs where a yield would be quite safe, so people lose respect for them even when the junction is dangerous enough to warrant one.

wil

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest this stems from a massive over use of stop signs in Ireland. Take a look at UK or German roads and you'll find far more yield signs and far fewer stop signs. In Ireland they erect stop signs where a yield would be quite safe, so people lose respect for them even when the junction is dangerous enough to warrant one.

Stop sign? is that the one with a tree in front of it.

You'd be better off introducing a "Swerve Around" sign in Ireland. Stopping is a difficult concept. Along with a "ShureLookit Oncoming traffic on your side of road" and "I was only going to be a minute" sign outside any shop where there is no room or sense to park.
And a " Have Signal so I'm on me phone" warning on well nearly everything.

marno21

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest this stems from a massive over use of stop signs in Ireland. Take a look at UK or German roads and you'll find far more yield signs and far fewer stop signs. In Ireland they erect stop signs where a yield would be quite safe, so people lose respect for them even when the junction is dangerous enough to warrant one.

The fact that we have roundabouts with stop signs on approaches in Ireland further backs this up.

irlcad

All this makes Ireland the perfect place to introduce "left on a red light" though!

Reducin' traffic while breakin' the law

tooManyChoices

How does this even work legally?

If there's a stop sign then you have to yield.

If everyone has to yield then nobody can go anywhere?

or to be more precise, isn't this actually illegal?
The law says stop signs are to be used such:
"that a road ahead is a major road, the traffic on which has the right of way over traffic approaching from the road on which the sign is provided"

So...you can't actually use a stop sign if it isn't connecting onto a road of greater precedence.

plodder

tooManyChoices wrote: »

How does this even work legally?

If there's a stop sign then you have to yield.

If everyone has to yield then nobody can go anywhere?

That situation does arise on mini-roundabouts too. You can get a stalemate until someone just goes. Though the rule isn't exactly the same.

or to be more precise, isn't this actually illegal?
The law says stop signs are to be used such:
"that a road ahead is a major road, the traffic on which has the right of way over traffic approaching from the road on which the sign is provided"

So...you can't actually use a stop sign if it isn't connecting onto a road of greater precedence.

It does seem to be a usage that isn't completely compatible with the regulations.

A stop sign is supposed to mean Stop, and give way, but here they are implying it means Stop and give way to your right, and there doesn't appear to be a legal basis for that.

Dravokivich

Deleted User wrote: »

Mini roundabouts would make more sense than four way stops, the rules of right of way are clearer with roundabouts than all stop and guessing who goes next.

Not when people just drive over'em and ignore that they are roundabouts.

Carawaystick

There was a 3 way stop in Arklow at the T junction south of the bridge. Now traffic can only approach by 2 of the roads.

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Not when people just drive over'em and ignore that they are roundabouts.

Those would be the same people who wouldn't stop for a stop sign, so for them it wouldn't matter what type of junction it is.

PLL

I know two people who failed their driving test because they didn't stop at a stop sign. They claimed they didn't know it was that serious.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

That situation does arise on mini-roundabouts too. You can get a stalemate until someone just goes. Though the rule isn't exactly the same.

It does seem to be a usage that isn't completely compatible with the regulations.

A stop sign is supposed to mean Stop, and give way, but here they are implying it means Stop and give way to your right, and there doesn't appear to be a legal basis for that.

I had heard that the mini roundabout was introduced in the UK to confuse drivers as to which motorist had priority, and most drivers slow down when confused, so a reduction in speed and accidents was expected.

In Hemel Hempsted there is a magic roundabout which has to be seen to be believed. (there is a second one in Swindon).

It consists of a large roundabouts with each of six roads in has a mini roundabout. It is permissible to go round either way, so locals go anti-clockwise to get priority on each mini roundabout and strangers run into them. Every entrance to exit has two routes. Bananas.

plodder

Sam Russell wrote: »

I had heard that the mini roundabout was introduced in the UK to confuse drivers as to which motorist had priority, and most drivers slow down when confused, so a reduction in speed and accidents was expected.

In Hemel Hempsted there is a magic roundabout which has to be seen to be believed. (there is a second one in Swindon).

It consists of a large roundabouts with each of six roads in has a mini roundabout. It is permissible to go round either way, so locals go anti-clockwise to get priority on each mini roundabout and strangers run into them. Every entrance to exit has two routes. Bananas.

I've driven thru the "magic roundabout" in Swindon. Not sure what you mean by permissible to go round either way. There's definitely only one permissible way to go round each roundabout, but the configuration of that one means you go around the main roundabout anti-clockwise rather than the normal clockwise.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

I've driven thru the "magic roundabout" in Swindon. Not sure what you mean by permissible to go round either way. There's definitely only one permissible way to go round each roundabout, but the configuration of that one means you go around the main roundabout anti-clockwise rather than the normal clockwise.

The 'magic roundabout' is a collection of six min-roundabouts arranged in a circle with a two-way road. So the main roundabout allows people to go clockwise or anticlockwise. So someone going N to S can turn left or right at the first mini roundabout. Going right takes you round anticlockwise, which gives better priority as you go round. The real benefit is that there are always two routes round the roundabout which gives flexibility in congestion, and surprisingly means gridlock is very very rare.

I've only been on the Hemel Hempsted one. That one used to work better before one of the legs became an entrance to a car park and the traffic on that leg reduced to near nothing. Roundabouts work best when the is a balanced mix of traffic on each leg.

The four way stop will work if every car stops. It will be very dangerous if cars just ignore it and drive through as if they are not there.

looksee

The 4-ways in the US work because nearly every urban junction is at the corner of a block, and the junctions are all identical and at right angles to each other. People develop an instinct for automatically figuring out who goes first. I could not see it (I was being driven), it looked totally random to me, but it seemed to work. I think you either need a lot of them, or none of them. We are used to roundabouts - which confuse Americans generally - having a mix creates problems.

Sleeper12

Treat it as a roundabout but instead of yeld you must stoo

mikeymouse

The cat goes first, then the good , then the bad , then you.
https://imgur.com/gallery/P6A22bX

Freddypaccman

Few of them in Co. Cavan that have been there a number of years. Shankill Cross outside Cavan Town has been like that for nearly 10 years. Ones near Ballinagh and Kilnaleck. Think they were put there to get over poor visibility where road users on the "minor" road had to take a leap of faith crossing or joining the "major" road.

Del2005

irlcad wrote: »

Here in Ontario there are dozens of 4-way stops in every town I've been in, with the odd roundabout.

Difference is, everyone stops at the 4-way. Sure two cars can attempt to go at the same time but you dont leave these junctions by laying down rubber, you kind of crawl out.

The cops often hide near stop signs, checking that people stop.

Just not sure all this would work well in Ireland!

The reason why they don't work in Ireland is in your 2nd last sentence. There's zero enforcement of anything on our roads bar DUI and exceeding the posted speed limit.

If the Gardaí sat a few junctions for a month then the stop sign and red light ignorers would end. Then they'd have to sit in a 30km/h school zone for a few months and the speed would drop. Then spend a few months doing people for not using the driving lane and our multi lane roads would be sorted. The fines would pay for the policing and if they did regular blitzes then people won't revert back to the bad driving.

plodder

looksee wrote: »

The 4-ways in the US work because nearly every urban junction is at the corner of a block, and the junctions are all identical and at right angles to each other. People develop an instinct for automatically figuring out who goes first. I could not see it (I was being driven), it looked totally random to me, but it seemed to work. I think you either need a lot of them, or none of them. We are used to roundabouts - which confuse Americans generally - having a mix creates problems.

Yes, it helps that the junctions are exactly at right angles to each other; you can see clearly. Though I'm not sure it has anything to do with instinct. The first time I drove through one, I did the usual Irish style "rolling stop" and caused total confusion. Once you actually stop, it's an instantaneous thing, and it's clear which other vehicles stopped before you. If you don't stop, other vehicles will honk at you. So, it's self policing that way.

Thinking about the op again, I've seen other junctions where there are stop signs on multiple arms of the junction, including one near where I live. But, it's the "4-way" sign that might be new I think. In the US, that means a special rule applies, but not here apparently, which is potentially confusing.

Dravokivich

^
Sounds a lot like going to the barbers. You just watch who came in after you, and go up before'em.

Isambard

he who hesitates is last, pause briefly and then move off, you can nearly guarantee everyone else will wait.