dublin bus - later services needed

thomasj

We have heard before that NTA and Dublin bus are considering introducing 24 hour services on select routes on a trial basis but should they also be considering extending operating hours on all of the corridors say 12.30 or 1, just line the luas?

We are modern day 21st century thriving city and in many services a 24-hours city, but we are still have an aged transport system .

Even if 24-hour services are introduced on some routes, isn't it time that last bus be moved to 12.30am or 1am 7 days a week on all corridors to fit in with the thriving city's needs?

Xterminator

I wouldn't be a fan of increasing the hours of the service on all routes just because i might want to use it occasionally.

I think you would have to establish the need, run a pilot, and see if the move is cost effective. You would have to negotiate with the unions a sustainable level of pay and conditions.

in fact the pilot idea being floated seems very sensible.

howiya

I think you have make gradual steps and gauge demand but I do think public transport should run later.

I get a taxi at night because I refuse to wait up to forty minutes for the last bus after I finish work. If I finish nearer half 11 then I've no problem using the bus.

That problem will still be there if we push out the times of the last buses. The frequency will still be poor but more than likely adequate to carry the amount of passengers.

I'd like to see the last cross city buses that operate to city centre only extended to complete the whole route as a first step. I'd imagine it's complicated as rosters and timetables would need to be redrawn.

Additional resources would also be required and I'd imagine the focus of any new funding will prioritise improving the journeys of the many rather than the few.

LeinsterDub

Xterminator wrote: »

I wouldn't be a fan of increasing the hours of the service on all routes just because i might want to use it occasionally.

11.30 is far too early for the last bus. It should be at least 12

bk

I suppose you don't necessarily need later services on every single route.

But I could certainly see two different night services. A full 24/7 service on some of the core busy routes (e.g. 16) and maybe an extended service to say 1am on other routes, but not necessarily all routes where their is overlap.

I agree that 11:30 is far to early for services to stop in a modern city, it is like something out of the 1950's.

Hell I have often missed the last bus, just coming out of the cinema! Really not good enough.

ED E

Yeah, it depends all right. Weird ones like the 75 heavily serve students and have no real need late at night, whereas the 16 should be 24hrs for years already.

devnull

There is no agreement with unions to run services after 11:30pm at present:

http://dublinbusdrivers.com/Post_2330_Departures.html

As you are aware there has been several discussions, both centrally and locally, in relation to journeys commencing post 23.30 hours.

This Union’s stance is and has always been that no P.S.O. journeys can commence post 23.30 hours. We do however accept that over the years Reps have entered into local agreements to allow some post 23.30 hours journeys as they were contained in exceptionally good schedules which delivered improved work-life balance to our members. In circumstances where Management attempts to introduce unacceptable schedules which propose post 23.30 hours journeys our stance will remain as above – i.e. No Agreement.

In relation to the commercial routes, this Union attended a central meeting in the last 2 years, in good faith, and agreed it was in everyone’s interest to agree to post 23.30 hours journeys if acceptable schedules were proposed with improved work-life balance (please note our committee’s stance differs from our sister Unions stance).

Since the introduction of the new 747 schedules, drivers have refused to operated journeys which commence post 23.30 hours until the Company introduce an acceptable schedule.

At a recent meeting with the Company a compromise was reached that was acceptable to all. It must be stressed that the agreement reached is only for Route 747 (a Commercial Route) and furthermore the agreement reached is only for this proposed 747 schedule, it does not in any way dilute our stance on journeys commencing post 23.30 hours on either commercial or P.S.O. routes. Where the Company wishes to introduce such arrangements in any depot on any route it must be by agreement with this Union.

Please be advised, that in future if any journeys commencing post 23.30 hours are agreed locally, SIPTU’s central committee holds the right to rescind such local agreements and under no circumstances will any post 23.30 hours journeys set a precedent going forward.

LXFlyer

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up OP, when you're going to get the same answer being honest.

Bear in mind that drivers are a scarce resource. There are serious capacity issues on the existing services as it is during the day. Extending operating hours (even by 30 mins) would require additional drivers to operate the revised rosters.

Right now in my opinion the immediate issue is to address the capacity issues during the day so that people aren't being left behind anymore.

The 30 additional buses this year should help with that.

If the NTA gets the funding to increase the service on the non-retendered routes by 10%, probably late next year or in 2019 then I would see that as the time to extend operating hours.

Norrie Thomas

LXFlyer wrote: »

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up OP, when you're going to get the same answer being honest.

Bear in mind that drivers are a scarce resource. There are serious capacity issues on the existing services as it is during the day. Extending operating hours (even by 30 mins) would require additional drivers to operate the revised rosters.

Right now in my opinion the immediate issue is to address the capacity issues during the day so that people aren't being left behind anymore.

The 30 additional buses this year should help with that.

If the NTA gets the funding to increase the service on the non-retendered routes by 10%, probably late next year or in 2019 then I would see that as the time to extend operating hours.

Another way of looking at this would be for the NTA to put out to tender some 7 day a week overnight routes which would be open for any operator to bid for. Would that work is there a reason why not?

thomasj

LXFlyer wrote:

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up OP, when you're going to get the same answer being honest.

Just because there is reasoning behind the madness doesn't mean we have to stop talking about it until it raises its head again.

In fairness, the method to my madness was missing the last bus last night in town by 30 seconds. I was letting off steam .

But when you see luas, bus eireann and other private bus services running after midnight you can understand why I think when I see this that Dublin is still acting like it's in the 50s and playing catch-up

KD345

I think we'll definitely see one or two routes run 24/7 as part of Bus Connects.

The Green Line Luas is full right up to the last departure and runs every 15 minutes. If it dropped to every 30 minutes throughout the night I feel it would still do well. Not only for people coming home late but also those starting work early. I'm guessing the Red Line is similar, bearing in mind it links two major city hospitals with staff working early/late shifts. The opening of the Luas Cross City would be a perfect time to extend operating hours.

I think a similar level of bus service could run on the major routes. The Lucan/Stillorgan/Swords/Malahide corridors are all busy enough. With some clever rostering, increased funding, and the will of all parties to make it happen, this should not be a difficult thing to implement.

xalot

Another thing to think about is the extra security that would be needed. There's no way I'm getting on a red line luas after midnight unless there is a lot of security on it. Would feel much safer in a taxi.

Weekend starting hours are way too late though.

LeinsterDub

xalot wrote: »

Another thing to think about is the extra security that would be needed. There's no way I'm getting on a red line luas after midnight unless there is a lot of security on it. Would feel much safer in a taxi.

Weekend starting hours are way too late though.

There doesn't seem to be any issues with the late running around Christmas. Perhaps the junkies are in bed by then.

BaRcOe

LXFlyer wrote: »

If the NTA gets the funding to increase the service on the non-retendered routes by 10%, probably late next year or in 2019 then I would see that as the time to extend operating hours.

And there they are, wasting money on installing USB charging ports on the back of the seats..

Firstly, USB ports are not a need
Secondly, they're going to get stuffed full of chewing gum
Thirdly, they will be a flop

BonnieSituation

Given we used to have 6 day a week Nitelinks with Full late service on a Thursday as well, it's mad to see people talk about "security issues".

Late running on most routes and 24/7 running on the busiest corridors would do us.

If anyone has ever seen the wedgeed
2330 runnings on the Lucan corridor you can see demand is there for later running. I can imagine the same on DL and Swords.

BaRcOe

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be any issues with the late running around Christmas. Perhaps the junkies are in bed by then.

Sure the junkies can't see at night, they're so out of it they can barely see straight, let alone make it on a Luas in the dark.

"So there was a junkie on the Luas last night"... (Something you never here)

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

Just because there is reasoning behind the madness doesn't mean we have to stop talking about it until it raises its head again.

In fairness, the method to my madness was missing the last bus last night in town by 30 seconds. I was letting off steam .

But when you see luas, bus eireann and other private bus services running after midnight you can understand why I think when I see this that Dublin is still acting like it's in the 50s and playing catch-up

I'm not knocking you - it's just for those of us who are regulars, we are going round in eternal circles about this. There hasn't been any change in circumstance since the last time you raised it.

thomasj

LXFlyer wrote:

I'm not knocking you - it's just for those of us who are regulars, we are going round in eternal circles about this. There hasn't been any change in circumstance since the last time you raised it.

I know.

I just get the feeling, that unless this is put in as a condition when the tendering process comes up, it will be swept under the carpet

There are a lot of good people in this city, who keep the lights on when the rest of us are out partying or gone to bed, but we make life as difficult for them at times when they have to make their way to work or home.

StreetLight

BaRcOe wrote: »

And there they are, wasting money on installing USB charging ports on the back of the seats..

Firstly, USB ports are not a need
Secondly, they're going to get stuffed full of chewing gum
Thirdly, they will be a flop

The USB ports are not extras - they come as standard on new buses.

BaRcOe

StreetLight wrote: »

The USB ports are not extras - they come as standard on new buses.

I guess. They could still put the money (wasted on USB Ports) into something that's actually needed. i.e. running a couple of routes until 12:30 (Pay the driver, fuel, security if needed).

LXFlyer

BaRcOe wrote: »

And there they are, wasting money on installing USB charging ports on the back of the seats..

Firstly, USB ports are not a need
Secondly, they're going to get stuffed full of chewing gum
Thirdly, they will be a flop

That's a standard fitting on the new bus model - so it's not money wasted as such.

Removing them would frankly cost more I would imagine.

You're making a lot of negative predictions in any case - why would they be a flop? BE have had them for some time and they haven't been viewed as a negative.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

I know.

I just get the feeling, that unless this is put in as a condition when the tendering process comes up, it will be swept under the carpet

There are a lot of good people in this city, who keep the lights on when the rest of us are out partying or gone to bed, but we make life as difficult for them at times when they have to make their way to work or home.

I don't think it will be swept under the carpet at all.

Remember that as part of the tendering process DB will be allowed to significantly expand its own portfolio of routes - as part of that I suspect you'll see some night services being developed.

However quite frankly right now I'd prefer whatever limited resources there are be put into improving the daytime service.

BaRcOe

BaRcOe wrote: »

I guess. They could still put the money (wasted on USB Ports) into something that's actually needed. i.e. running a couple of routes until 12:30 (Pay the driver, fuel, security if needed).

USB ports in seats are not why buses don't run until 12:30, stop.

BaRcOe

Meadow Large Barricade wrote: »

USB ports in seats are not why buses don't run until 12:30, stop.

Not directly, but you have to agree, they're not needed.

BaRcOe

BaRcOe wrote: »

Not directly, but you have to agree, they're not needed.

Not directly, indirectly, in any way/shape/form do they play the tiniest part in determining what time buses stop at.

If you're on a 3 hour journey I think they're a pretty good idea actually. Sadly the one thing I do agree with from above is they're going to end up wrecked/full of chewing gum.

brokenarms

Last time this came up, people were saying it would be popular as the last bus is standing room only.

I have worked the last cars on these busy routes since.

They are not popular or as busy as I was lead to believe here.
Having the seats filled on the 11.30 bus on a Friday night does not mean it will be busy for the rest of the night or week for that matter.

I guess people just jam onto the last bus on one or two routes after a few pints at the weekend. Like maybe the 16.

Week nights really are quiet . Especially on inbound runs. Waste of Diesel having them run through the night IMO.

bk

BaRcOe wrote: »

Not directly, but you have to agree, they're not needed.

Completely irrelevant as they are now a standard feature of all new city buses produced by the manufacturer (and most bus manufacturers at this stage). It would actually cost more to get them taken out.

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

Last time this came up, people were saying it would be popular as the last bus is standing room only.

I have worked the last cars on these busy routes since.

They are not popular or as busy as I was lead to believe here.
Having the seats filled on the 11.30 bus on a Friday night does not mean it will be busy for the rest of the night or week for that matter.

I guess people just jam onto the last bus on one or two routes after a few pints at the weekend. Like maybe the 16.

Week nights really are quiet . Especially on inbound runs. Waste of Diesel having them run through the night IMO.

So what you're saying that because nobody right now is trying to avail of a service that doesn't exist, therefore it shouldn't exist in the future?

I don't use late night buses right now when I am out late because of the schedule and I would say many people are the same. Far easier to get a taxi in the absence of a better late night service.

BaRcOe

brokenarms wrote: »

Waste of Diesel having them run through the night IMO.

Diesel? I thought they ran on Sunflower Oil..

BonnieSituation

brokenarms wrote: »

Last time this came up, people were saying it would be popular as the last bus is standing room only.

I have worked the last cars on these busy routes since.

They are not popular or as busy as I was lead to believe here.
Having the seats filled on the 11.30 bus on a Friday night does not mean it will be busy for the rest of the night or week for that matter.

I guess people just jam onto the last bus on one or two routes after a few pints at the weekend. Like maybe the 16.

Week nights really are quiet . Especially on inbound runs. Waste of Diesel having them run through the night IMO.

They're really quiet midweek because people have no real reason to be going out because a. work nad b. difficulty in getting home after 1130.

I remember in my youth (ca. 2002 the 25N on a Thursday all the way to 0430 being rammed)

Likewise the 0030 and 0200 running on Monday and Tuesday having a fair few people on them.

bk

bk wrote: »

Completely irrelevant as they are now a standard feature of all new city buses produced by the manufacturer (and most bus manufacturers at this stage). It would actually cost more to get them taken out.

AFAIK the Aircoach has them.

And the Aircoach runs through the night on certain routes...

WAIT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE??

bk

brokenarms, the thing is, many people work in the city and airport and some business parks late into the night, early morning, but simply don't take the bus at all because they can't and it isn't even an option for them. So they are already taking alternatives, walking, cycling, driving, etc. For those peopel a bus at 11:30 is almost useless.

I would agree that not all routes need 24/7 running. But I do think all routes or nearly all should run until 12:30 or 1am and that you could have two or three core routes running 24/7 (e.g. 16 is an obvious one).

If BE can operate to Navan, etc. 24/7, then their is clearly demand their for at least core routes.

Perhaps Go Ahead might be interested in picking up a contract to operate core routes at night with their buses since DB seem disinterested in it. Would be a nice way for Go Ahead to get the maximum usage out of those buses. Operate the orbital routes during the day and use the same single decker buses on some core routes like the 16 between 12am and 6am.

brokenarms

bk wrote: »

brokenarms, the thing is, many people work in the city and airport and some business parks late into the night, early morning, but simply don't take the bus at all because they can't and it isn't even an option for them. So they are already taking alternatives, walking, cycling, driving, etc. For those peopel a bus at 11:30 is almost useless.

I would agree that not all routes need 24/7 running. But I do think all routes or nearly all should run until 12:30 or 1am and that you could have two or three core routes running 24/7 (e.g. 16 is an obvious one).

If BE can operate to Navan, etc. 24/7, then their is clearly demand their for at least core routes.

Perhaps Go Ahead might be interested in picking up a contract to operate core routes at night with their buses since DB seem disinterested in it. Would be a nice way for Go Ahead to get the maximum usage out of those buses. Operate the orbital routes during the day and use the same single decker buses on some core routes like the 16 between 12am and 6am.

How do you know this?
If the NTA was to supply a contract for it, I would think they would be very interested in it.
Working nights can suit people better than days. I dont think there would be a shortage of drivers for it.

I just cant see it taking off.

Has the NTA done any research on it yet?

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

How do you know this?
If the NTA was to supply a contract for it, I would think they would be very interested in it.
Working nights can suit people better than days. I dont think there would be a shortage of drivers for it.

SIPTU have made it clear that there is currently no agreement to work services beyond 23:30 and they will not be doing it as it currently stands.

bk

brokenarms wrote: »

How do you know this?

Sorry, I should say DB seem to be interested in it, the unions seem to be against operating beyond 11:30

I really hadn't considered it before, but it really does sound like a good idea for the NTA to put the core routes operation between 12am to 6am out to tender.

hytrogen

There's been a lot of complaints in my area about last buses whizzing past in residential areas late at night as the driver rush to get home.
A solution proposed was to run a route from terminus to depot at the end of services keeping the speeds down and adding potential capacity to fund the "homeward" bound journey. Local DB management have yet to respond

brokenarms

devnull wrote: »

SIPTU have made it clear that there is currently no agreement to work services beyond 23:30 and they will not be doing it as it currently stands.

Maybe that is just down to wage payments. There would need to be a shift allowance for it. Like any night job.

Have you anymore details on it?

DinkyDinosaur

I don't see why a private bus company couldn't do the job if Dublin Bus wont.

BonnieSituation

DinkyDinosaur wrote: »

I don't see why a private bus company couldn't do the job if Dublin Bus wont.

Cos NTA

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

Maybe that is just down to wage payments. There would need to be a shift allowance for it. Like any night job.

Have you anymore details on it?

Letter from SIPTU to Dublin Bus

As you are aware there has been several discussions, both centrally and locally, in relation to journeys commencing post 23.30 hours.

This Union’s stance is and has always been that no P.S.O. journeys can commence post 23.30 hours. We do however accept that over the years Reps have entered into local agreements to allow some post 23.30 hours journeys as they were contained in exceptionally good schedules which delivered improved work-life balance to our members. In circumstances where Management attempts to introduce unacceptable schedules which propose post 23.30 hours journeys our stance will remain as above – i.e. No Agreement.

In relation to the commercial routes, this Union attended a central meeting in the last 2 years, in good faith, and agreed it was in everyone’s interest to agree to post 23.30 hours journeys if acceptable schedules were proposed with improved work-life balance (please note our committee’s stance differs from our sister Unions stance).

Since the introduction of the new 747 schedules, drivers have refused to operated journeys which commence post 23.30 hours until the Company introduce an acceptable schedule.

At a recent meeting with the Company a compromise was reached that was acceptable to all. It must be stressed that the agreement reached is only for Route 747 (a Commercial Route) and furthermore the agreement reached is only for this proposed 747 schedule, it does not in any way dilute our stance on journeys commencing post 23.30 hours on either commercial or P.S.O. routes. Where the Company wishes to introduce such arrangements in any depot on any route it must be by agreement with this Union.

Please be advised, that in future if any journeys commencing post 23.30 hours are agreed locally, SIPTU’s central committee holds the right to rescind such local agreements and under no circumstances will any post 23.30 hours journeys set a precedent going forward.

DinkyDinosaur

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Cos NTA

What's NTA?

thomasj

DinkyDinosaur wrote:

What's NTA?

The powers to be responsible for all things transport-wise in the land

DinkyDinosaur

thomasj wrote: »

The powers to be responsible for all things transport-wise in the land

National Transport Authority?

rocketspocket

devnull wrote: »

Letter from SIPTU to Dublin Bus

Those SIPTU boys sound like great craic.

BaRcOe

Meadow Large Barricade wrote: »

AFAIK the Aircoach has them.

And the Aircoach runs through the night on certain routes...

WAIT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE??

Mind blown

hytrogen

Another mind blowing arguement for late night buses, and a great example is this evening.
Red Hot Chili Peppers play two nights sold out in the 2.3 arena. What buses ass by there and how late will they run until?
The majority of patrons outside of Dublin will no doubt park and ride in from the Madcow roundabout on the Luas but what about other patrons around Dublin? Asides gridlock at a taxi rank outside and an illicit one across the river in Ringsend what alternatives will DB have on when the gigs close?
This is one example but you check the 3arena calendar they have sold out nights well into next year and yet it is hardly provided for in terms of public transport in the area late at night..

jimmycrackcorm

Xterminator wrote:

I wouldn't be a fan of increasing the hours of the service on all routes just because i might want to use it occasionally.

Grand for 9 to 5 workers but what about people on late or early shifts or near workers for example. It's like arguing that we should not have any PSO routes.

BaRcOe wrote:

Firstly, USB ports are not a need Secondly, they're going to get stuffed full of chewing gum Thirdly, they will be a flop

You sound like the people who lauded the introduction of Dublin bikes that they'd all be either vandalised or found in the liffey.

Of course USB ports would be useful. I often take a phone power bank with me into town if I'm going for the day otherwise I'd run out at some point.

Stephen15

xalot wrote: »

Another thing to think about is the extra security that would be needed. There's no way I'm getting on a red line luas after midnight unless there is a lot of security on it. Would feel much safer in a taxi.

Weekend starting hours are way too late though.

To be honest I would feel less safe in a taxi than on public transport late at night if I was a lone woman particularly. On a bus or on a Luas you're in a place where theres plenty of potential witnesses, properly trained and vetted staff and you can get off whenever you want.

Where as in taxi you're getting into a car with a strange man who could be a potential rapist or muderer who can drive up the mountains if they want to.

On public transport you're more likely to be robbed but in a taxi you could be mudered or raped.

Stephen15

I would also suggest aswell running 24h services we introduce a proper nightbus running 6 or 7 days a week with day time fares and picks up and sets at every stop. Some routes could have needs during the night than during the day.

For example, the Dart and Luas don't run during the night due to the fact line repairs are done at night so perhaps run a bus only during the night that serves all the dart/luas stations.

Stephen15

hytrogen wrote: »

Another mind blowing arguement for late night buses, and a great example is this evening.
Red Hot Chili Peppers play two nights sold out in the 2.3 arena. What buses ass by there and how late will they run until?
The majority of patrons outside of Dublin will no doubt park and ride in from the Madcow roundabout on the Luas but what about other patrons around Dublin? Asides gridlock at a taxi rank outside and an illicit one across the river in Ringsend what alternatives will DB have on when the gigs close?
This is one example but you check the 3arena calendar they have sold out nights well into next year and yet it is hardly provided for in terms of public transport in the area late at night..

In fairness the 3 arena is not at all well served by buses. The only routes that go near it are the 151 and the infrequent 53.

Im not entirely in the know on what times concerts end at but I would imagine they finish around the 10.30-11 mark which would give ample opportunity to get a luas into the cc and a bus from there to wherever your going before the 11.30 cut off.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would also suggest aswell running 24h services we introduce a proper nightbus running 6 or 7 days a week with day time fares and picks up and sets at every stop. Some routes could have needs during the night than during the day.

For example, the Dart and Luas don't run during the night due to the fact line repairs are done at night so perhaps run a bus only during the night that serves all the dart/luas stations.

Basically how buses operate at night in London and most other European cities.