I went for the plug in hybrid (golf GTE)

grange girl

About 2 months ago, I posted the question: plug in hybrid as opposed to plain hybrid, was the phev worth the extra money?(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104137164) I wanted to be able to drive on electric for my daily work driving but needed the comfort of the petrol engine for regular longer trips. I ended up getting a Golf GTE second hand, it was actually the press review car for Ireland. It’s 152 and came in at about the changeover price of a new hybrid. A compromise worth making in my book. It came with the free ESB charger, a bonus. One poster suggested that I come back on to give my feedback, so here it is.

I love it as a car. You can feel the extra weight of the two engines, but once you get used to it, great car to drive. Love the electric. It covers my normal work driving on electric, which is what I wanted. For my work driving, the car claims that my average speed is 17km/hr, lots of stop/start driving (one of my regular trips is 7.5km with 2 roundabouts and 24 traffic lights). It’s hard on the electric battery, but I’m sure it was equally as hard on the diesel! But you have to be careful, I nearly ran over a man with a double buggy pulling out from a parking lot early on, he didn’t hear me! Good space in the back seat, we need space for adults in the back, and boot is fine for us too. Not totally convinced by Adaptive Cruise Control, I wish there were an option for ordinary cruise control at times. Don’t use regen braking, I find letting it coast much better.

It has been great on both the mid distance trips and the longer trips, all on hybrid. Not sure about the mpg on the longer runs but we are well impressed with how much petrol was left each time. On the 12 hour day trips, it’s good not to need to pull over to charge an BEV.

I’ll attach photos of the stats on the car today – from start was mostly motorway driving (110km/h) with a recharge at Kildare village, long term stats (about a month) include two long distance trips as well as about six medium range trips. Pleased with the mpg (can’t get my head round kmpg), though it combines both electric and petrol to come up with that so not really true mpg.

This car is really set up for a regular commute, setting a leave time to preheat the car is amazing, hard work for my work from home lifestyle. It won’t get anywhere near 50km on electric battery, certainly in stop start driving and colder weather, so don’t expect it will. But if you need a car for a commute that is about 30km, perfect. Great to have the freedom of the petrol engine if, like us, you need the car to do the longer drives regularly. But if you don’t need to do long drives on a regular basis like we do, I would probably advise going for the full electric experience, electric driving is addictive.

It’s the first car I have ever had which men admire, I get teased about being a secret boy racer, thankfully no one has mentioned mid life crisis (being a lady of that sort of age!). All in all, very happy with my choice, may not be the best for everyone, but it does exactly what I was looking for.

grogi

Wear well!

5.7 kWh / 100km?! I think that's combined with petrol usage, right?

Soarer

grange girl wrote: »

For my work driving, the car claims that my average speed is 17km/hr, lots of stop/start driving (one of my regular trips is 7.5km with 2 roundabouts and 24 traffic lights).

Jaysus, that sounds soul destroying! You'd definitely need a nice car for that!

grogi

Soarer wrote: »

Jaysus, that sounds soul destroying! You'd definitely need a nice car for that!

I did 5.8 km yesterday in the afternoon. Took me 45 mins...

billy few mates

Well wear indeed, they really are a nice car. I was very nearly tempted to buy one myself recently but it was a stretch too far for my budget for a new one so I'm going to have to wait and try and pick one up second hand within my budget if I can ever find one. I had also looked at a couple of ex demo models in NI but the mileage was too low to avoid having to pay the VAT on import.
I'm actually in Holland and Germany on business this week and there's tons of them over here, some in really nice colours I hadn't seen in ireland. I'm almost 100% sure I saw a GTE estate here today, I didn't even know they existed.

cros13

billy few mates wrote: »

I'm almost 100% sure I saw a GTE estate here today, I didn't even know they existed.

Yes they exist, and they are even sold* in Ireland:

https://www.volkswagen.ie/content/dam/vw-ngw/vw_pkw/importers/ie/downloads/product-guides/170724_ek_Passat%20GTE%20July%202017.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original.media_file.download_attachment.file/170724_ek_Passat%20GTE%20July%202017.pdf

* By sold I mean they haven't actually sold a single one but it's orderable.

Shefwedfan

Best of luck with it. Lovely car......

I would have preferred you to join the growing revolution of eGolf owners(I think it is 5 or 6 in Ireland now)....:P:P:P:P:P

billy few mates

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Best of luck with it. Lovely car......

I would have preferred you to join the growing revolution of eGolf owners(I think it is 5 or 6 in Ireland now)....:P:P:P:P:P

If I lived here on the continent I definitely would consider one but I don't think Ireland is ready for them yet.

I knew I'd seen one...

https://ibb.co/ekYLZQ

billy few mates

grange girl wrote: »

About 2 months ago, I posted the question: plug in hybrid as opposed to plain hybrid, was the phev worth the extra money?(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104137164) I wanted to be able to drive on electric for my daily work driving but needed the comfort of the petrol engine for regular longer trips. I ended up getting a Golf GTE second hand, it was actually the press review car for Ireland. It’s 152 and came in at about the changeover price of a new hybrid. A compromise worth making in my book. It came with the free ESB charger, a bonus. One poster suggested that I come back on to give my feedback, so here it is.

I love it as a car. You can feel the extra weight of the two engines, but once you get used to it, great car to drive. Love the electric. It covers my normal work driving on electric, which is what I wanted. For my work driving, the car claims that my average speed is 17km/hr, lots of stop/start driving (one of my regular trips is 7.5km with 2 roundabouts and 24 traffic lights). It’s hard on the electric battery, but I’m sure it was equally as hard on the diesel! But you have to be careful, I nearly ran over a man with a double buggy pulling out from a parking lot early on, he didn’t hear me! Good space in the back seat, we need space for adults in the back, and boot is fine for us too. Not totally convinced by Adaptive Cruise Control, I wish there were an option for ordinary cruise control at times. Don’t use regen braking, I find letting it coast much better.

It has been great on both the mid distance trips and the longer trips, all on hybrid. Not sure about the mpg on the longer runs but we are well impressed with how much petrol was left each time. On the 12 hour day trips, it’s good not to need to pull over to charge an BEV.

I’ll attach photos of the stats on the car today – from start was mostly motorway driving (110km/h) with a recharge at Kildare village, long term stats (about a month) include two long distance trips as well as about six medium range trips. Pleased with the mpg (can’t get my head round kmpg), though it combines both electric and petrol to come up with that so not really true mpg.

This car is really set up for a regular commute, setting a leave time to preheat the car is amazing, hard work for my work from home lifestyle. It won’t get anywhere near 50km on electric battery, certainly in stop start driving and colder weather, so don’t expect it will. But if you need a car for a commute that is about 30km, perfect. Great to have the freedom of the petrol engine if, like us, you need the car to do the longer drives regularly. But if you don’t need to do long drives on a regular basis like we do, I would probably advise going for the full electric experience, electric driving is addictive.

It’s the first car I have ever had which men admire, I get teased about being a secret boy racer, thankfully no one has mentioned mid life crisis (being a lady of that sort of age!). All in all, very happy with my choice, may not be the best for everyone, but it does exactly what I was looking for.

Do you mind me asking where you got it and how much you paid for it?
I've never seen one advertised outside a VW dealership and as far as I know only two VW dealers Ireland currently sell them.
I wonder how many GTEs have been sold since 2015 and what is the likelihood of any more appearing on the second hand market?

mad m

billy few mates wrote: »

and how much you paid for it?

From original thread in link you quoted, GTE was 31k but she had a 131VW to trade in against it.

unkel

mad m wrote:

From original thread in link you quoted, GTE was 31k but she had a 131VW to trade in against it.

31k for a 2 year old plug in hybrid Golf? That's a bit steep, no?

grogi

unkel wrote: »

31k for a 2 year old plug in hybrid Golf? That's a bit steep, no?

Das Auto demands a premium...

mad m

unkel wrote: »

31k for a 2 year old plug in hybrid Golf? That's a bit steep, no?

Absolutely . Looking at them in UK, price is from 19,000 to 23(2016) private seller, dealers are around 22000 sterling. VRT works out around 2500 euro.

billy few mates

mad m wrote: »

From original thread in link you quoted, GTE was 31k but she had a 131VW to trade in against it.

Thanks, I missed the link in the first post.

billy few mates

cros13 wrote: »

Yes they exist, and they are even sold* in Ireland:

https://www.volkswagen.ie/content/dam/vw-ngw/vw_pkw/importers/ie/downloads/product-guides/170724_ek_Passat%20GTE%20July%202017.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original.media_file.download_attachment.file/170724_ek_Passat%20GTE%20July%202017.pdf

* By sold I mean they haven't actually sold a single one but it's orderable.

How do you know they haven't sold any?
Is there any way to find out how many GTEs have been sold in this country?

grogi

billy few mates wrote: »

How do you know they haven't sold any?
Is there any way to find out how many GTEs have been sold in this country?

Yes.

http://www.beepbeep.ie/stats/?sYear%5B%5D=2017&sYear%5B%5D=2016&sRegType=1&sMonth%5B%5D=&sMonth%5B%5D=&sMake%5B%5D=Volkswagen&sRange%5B%5D=GOLF&x=60&y=1

In 2016 26 units, 2015 5. You'll pick from here on

This covers new and imports, you can tweak the search criteria to include only new cars.

Shefwedfan

billy few mates wrote: »

How do you know they haven't sold any?
Is there any way to find out how many GTEs have been sold in this country?

If you want a reason why a GTE hasn't sold just look over some of the deluded threads in the Motors forum. According to the majority of posters the diesel cars they are all driving are capable of running on thin air....the numbers quoted are complete BS in terms of km/100 on diesel.

That is the issue, majority of people seem to have no mind of there own and just make up stats to try and say diesel is the way to go. Mindless sheep who think diesel is best option because the Government told them that in 2008....

Petrol is a dirty word in Ireland to most people....GTE is an over priced petrol to those same people.....

billy few mates

grogi wrote: »

Yes.

http://www.beepbeep.ie/stats/?sYear%5B%5D=2017&sYear%5B%5D=2016&sRegType=1&sMonth%5B%5D=&sMonth%5B%5D=&sMake%5B%5D=Volkswagen&sRange%5B%5D=GOLF&x=60&y=1

In 2016 26 units, 2015 5. You'll pick from here on

This covers new and imports, you can tweak the search criteria to include only new cars.

Thanks for that, really interesting.
I'm a bit surprised how poor the uptake has been, I doubt if I'll see any second hand ones coming up anytime soon. Mind you from my experience in dealing with VW they weren't exactly going out of their way to try and close the deal. The impression I got was 'they're here if you want one, the price is on the website'...

cros13

billy few mates wrote: »

How do you know they haven't sold any?
Is there any way to find out how many GTEs have been sold in this country?

Only one solitary Estate GTE ever imported in the SIMI stats (which I look at every month) and AFAIK that's a VW press/demo vehicle.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

Das Auto demands a premium...

Sure. There is a premium of a VW Golf over say a Japanese / Korean car in the same class, but VW is not quite a premium brand like BMW or Mercedes. A few thousand the difference when new would be reasonable.

The Golf is a very good car, but a 2 year old one still thousands more than a brand new similar car from Japan / Korea is just madness. I expect that Golf to suffer a very steep depreciation over the next few years...

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Sure. There is a premium of a VW Golf over say a Japanese / Korean car in the same class, but VW is not quite a premium brand like BMW or Mercedes. A few thousand the difference when new would be reasonable.

The Golf is a very good car, but a 2 year old one still thousands more than a brand new similar car from Japan / Korea is just madness. I expect that Golf to suffer a very steep depreciation over the next few years...

Japan / Korea cars at the moment are not a patch on VW/BMW/Merc/Audi/Passat etc etc

They have always resorted to throwing in features to try and get into the same bracket, e.g. cruise control etc on basic spec.

Tesla is more of an issue than anything Hyundai/Kia etc can throw at them.

Go out tomorrow and take a Tucson for a test drive, then drive to VW garage and take a Tiguan out....

zilog_jones

grogi wrote: »

5.7 kWh / 100km?! I think that's combined with petrol usage, right?

I'd say so. I get about the same (5.35 kWh/100km) with my Prius Plug-in overall (plus 3.55 l/100km in petrol), but EV-only driving is more like 15-16 kWh/100km for me.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Japan / Korea cars at the moment are not a patch on VW/BMW/Merc/Audi/Passat etc etc

Indeed they are not. But I wouldn't throw in VW in the same group as BMW and Mercedes either.

A premium of a few grand for a Golf over an equivalent Japan / Korea is justified imho. And some of that would be compensated because the Golf would depreciate relatively less.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Indeed they are not. But I wouldn't throw in VW in the same group as BMW and Mercedes either.

That's what Audi is for

unkel wrote: »

A premium of a few grand for a Golf over an equivalent Japan / Korea is justified imho. And some of that would be compensated because the Golf would depreciate relatively less.

Why would you say so? If they are of same quality, same size and same performance - I don't see any reason to pay a penny more for a VW than for a Toyota, Honda or Kia.

My gut actually tells me that a VW will be a car that seems well built, but underneath there will be some solutions far from engineered well. VW has a very well documented history of taking shortcuts

unkel

grogi wrote: »

Why would you say so? If they are of same quality, same size and same performance - I don't see any reason to pay a penny more for a VW

They are not of the same quality and do not have the same driving dynamics. They are getting ever closer, but they are not quite there yet. A great example in the context of this forum is the eGolf vs the Hyundai Ioniq EV

Ioniq is an excellent car for the money, the Koreans have outdone themselves yet again. They probably passed the Japanese at this stage. Yet the Ioniq is simply not as good as an eGolf. Not as good to drive, not as quiet, not as nice a place to be in and not as well built.

Shefwedfan

grogi wrote: »

That's what Audi is for



Why would you say so? If they are of same quality, same size and same performance - I don't see any reason to pay a penny more for a VW than for a Toyota, Honda or Kia.

My gut actually tells me that a VW will be a car that seems well built, but underneath there will be some solutions far from engineered well. VW has a very well documented history of taking shortcuts

As Unkel said above they are just not there.

If you take electric cars out of it as I mentioned above, take a Tucson for a test drive and then take out the Tiguan. There is a noticeable difference.

grange girl

Hi guys, Sorry for the silence. Grogi, we can set up a support group! I felt guilty driving round with a dirty diesel car in what are now 30km zones so glad to not be adding to the pollution in the city now. Billy, I'll pm you about prices etc.
Re VW wanting to sell - the guy I first approached in Frank Keane (about their demo model which they had listed on Carzone but didn't actually want to sell) was really enthusiastic about the e cars but I think was a bit frustrated about bringing people on test drives and nothing coming of it. He has moved on from there now.
If there wasn't such a lead time on the hybrid ioniq I would have been very interested. There wasn't even one available to test drive and no promises about when they could be got.

billy few mates

What is the long term future for these particular vehicles from an owners perspective...?

I see the battery comes with an eight year warranty but what happens after that?
Can the battery packs be replaced and if so what would be the likely cost?

Do they expect the batteries to last beyond eight years?
Knowing you could be faced with a potentially expensive battery replacement after the warranty expires (assuming they can actually be replaced) could have a huge impact on the resale value.

grogi

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As Unkel said above they are just not there.

If you take electric cars out of it as I mentioned above, take a Tucson for a test drive and then take out the Tiguan. There is a noticeable difference.

I don't want to start a flame war here - but that difference in quality is typically an ascetic only.

A Toyota will be equally boring and plastic for the next 15 years and keep driving in the same uninspired fashion, while soft-touch buttons in a German premium will wear off after a few years shortly after control arms have been replaced.

I agree - European car is usually a nicer place to be in. An Asian car would have more focus on mechanical engineering.

cros13

billy few mates wrote: »

What is the long term future for these particular vehicles from an owners perspective...?

They'll certainly face less mechanical wear than an equivalent mileage non-PHEV. I'd buy a PHEV with way more mileage on it than I'd ever consider with a pure combustion car.... because the electric powertrain is bulletproof and provided the car was used correctly the combustion powertrain could be barely broken in.

I've been looking at outlander PHEVs recently for my dad... plenty in the UK with 2/3 or more of the mileage done on electric power alone.

billy few mates wrote: »

I see the battery comes with an eight year warranty but what happens after that?

It continues to work.... with slow degradation over another decade or two.
The warranty term is usually based on extensive testing and usually includes a capacity guarantee (usually 70% capacity warrantied).
So far the experience has been that unless there is a specific design flaw BEVs and PHEVs have far lower rates of warranty repair than pure combustion vehicles.

The last public info (end 2015) from Nissan for example had rate of serious powertrain related issues fixed under warranty for Leafs five times lower than their average for their ICE models.

A warranty is just a minimum guarantee from the manufacturer... it's not an expiration date... the base warranty offered by BMW on some new combustion cars is just two years...

One reason EVs are offered with such long powertrain warranties (apart from settling nervous potential customers) is because practically nobody ever claims on them.
Nissan had three HV battery related claims in the whole of europe for the first five years of Leaf sales (over 50,000 sales).

billy few mates wrote: »

Can the battery packs be replaced and if so what would be the likely cost?

Yes.... but probably never going to be worth it.

unkel

billy few mates wrote: »

I see the battery comes with an eight year warranty but what happens after that?

In the USA, Ioniq comes with a lifetime battery warranty. It is very likely the car will have been scrapped long before the battery eventually goes below 70% after about 15-20 years

zilog_jones

billy few mates wrote: »

I see the battery comes with an eight year warranty but what happens after that?
Can the battery packs be replaced and if so what would be the likely cost?

Do they expect the batteries to last beyond eight years?
Knowing you could be faced with a potentially expensive battery replacement after the warranty expires (assuming they can actually be replaced) could have a huge impact on the resale value.

PHEVs and most BEVs haven't really been around long enough for us to know yet. Petrol hybrids have been around longer, but older ones generally use different battery technology (Ni-MH instead of Li-ion) so it may be hard to compare.

Nearly every 2nd generation Prius ('03-'09) is over 8 years old now, yet there are still many on the road. It's quite normal for the batteries to last over 10 years and 160k km with no issues, and even then if they fail it's often the case that only one or two cells have failed which can be replaced with used/reconditioned cells at reasonable cost. Of course, if you go to a Toyota dealer they'll want to replace the whole traction battery for €2.5k+!

I even occasionally see a 1st generation Prius (I think a '02) still on the road around Cork. Either the battery is still good, or it was financially viable to repair (or they're mental ).

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

I even occasionally see a 1st generation Prius (I think a '02) still on the road around Cork. Either the battery is still good, or it was financially viable to repair (or they're mental ).

Or the battery has been comatose or even dead

There's a first gen one here in my estate too, a Jap import. Can't remember the year but something like '01 or '02. Were they even sold here new back then?

zilog_jones

A Prius won't start with a dead traction battery. It needs to be functional as MG1 starts the ICE, and the motor generators are integral to the gearbox. The 12V battery is pretty much there just to start some relays and auxiliary equipment. There's no traditional starter motor like the Civic hybrids. I've seen some examples where they have lost nearly half their original battery capacity, but don't know how low they can go.

Sales started in Europe in 2000, don't know about Ireland. I've seen some non-JDM examples but they could be UK imports.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

A Prius won't start with a dead traction battery. It needs to be functional as MG1 starts the ICE, and the motor generators are integral to the gearbox. The 12V battery is pretty much there just to start some relays and auxiliary equipment. There's no traditional starter motor like the Civic hybrids. I've seen some examples where they have lost nearly half their original battery capacity, but don't know how low they can go.

I second to that. I started a Prius with dead 12V battery with a laptop charger once, did a few km and it was fine afterwards...

cros13

Yeah... the 1st to 3rd gen Priuses (Prii?) with their memory effect impacted NiMH batteries are not really comparable.

I think barring design issues we're going to see all automotive lithium ion batteries follow the pattern of degradation we generally see with any other lithium ion pack.

Tesla has 10 year old packs on the road in the roadster. Most roadster owners have not gone for the pack upgrade Tesla offered them.
The first Model S off the line is just over 5 years old. No evidence of capacity loss that would worry anyone.
The Gen1 Leaf and early Renault batteries have design faults in the form of Renault-Nissan's chosen chemistries.... and both corrected in 2013.

BoatMad

I think barring design issues we're going to see all automotive lithium ion batteries follow the pattern of degradation we generally see with any other lithium ion pack.

I agree, but for big capacity, this could be quite an extended period ( 10 years )

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree, but for big capacity, this could be quite an extended period ( 10 years )

+1
Tesla Model S owners after 5 years and 300,400,500 k km are reporting between 7-15% deg. 15% of a car rated at 300km after 500k km is only a range loss of 45km, leaving the car with a range of 255km, still higher than any mainstream EV.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Tesla Model S owners after 5 years and 300,400,500 k km are reporting between 7-15% deg. 15% of a car rated at 300km after 500k km is only a range loss of 45km, leaving the car with a range of 255km, still higher than any mainstream EV.

yes , the issue of battery degradation disappears as battery capacity increases beyond the needs of the majority of users