Price of land increasing

handlemaster

http://m.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/land-prices-soar-by-32pc-as-investors-return-to-market-36146407.html

I guess this was always going to happen with price of housing increasing.

Bellview

A few poor auctioneers trying to encourage for sale signs...has wet ground in any part of Ireland increased by 30 percent...

cute geoge

Bellview wrote: »

A few poor auctioneers trying to encourage for sale signs...has wet ground in any part of Ireland increased by 30 percent...

I would say no one wants wet ground unless forestry at there own price even i would say good land is maxed out at€10k/acre unless a neighbour is intrested Granted some exceptional farms will make considerable more

Bellview

cute geoge wrote:

I would say no one wants wet ground unless forestry at there own price even i would say good land is maxed out at€10k/acre unless a neighbour is intrested Granted some exceptional farms will make considerable more

Agreed.. headline on article would send a different message..

Who2

More and more beef lads seem to be easing back . Between a lift in construction a vast majority don't have time and the fact that it's near impossible to make anything off beef they don't seem to be buying much. If there's a dairy man lying in that leaves you with some hope but otherwise I don't think land is going to rise that much.

Grueller

There are exceptions. Around north wexford here land will freely make 12-15k per acre. Np shortage of buyers at that price point.
Friday coming there is a nice piece for sale. 13 really good acres. 3 good acres and about four rising onto a rock outcrop. 1 acre of a disused quarry which is complete waste. No road frontage and fairly rural. Be a good guide as it is purely agricultural.
https://www.quinnproperty.ie/property/bolinready-ballycanew-gorey-co-wexford-2/

Willfarman

It is still the dregs of development and enniscorthy bypass money fueling that grueller.. there was 90ish acre of macamore land sold in the region of 6 thou an acre in may.

Floki

There was land in taghmon sold lately if I'm not mistaken.

Anyone an idea how much it made?

handlemaster

People who want to build in their own area can still only buy mostly from Farmers who have site potential

Grueller

Willfarman wrote: »

It is still the dregs of development and enniscorthy bypass money fueling that grueller.. there was 90ish acre of macamore land sold in the region of 6 thou an acre in may.

Possibly is the case alright Willfarman.
I own a share of macamore land myself and have to say 6kish is the value of it. A portion of the land that you are talking about was swapped for about half the amount of drier land 15 miles or so away if I have heard correctly.

A couple of things though in the North Wexford area.
1. Gorey is an affluent town. Small plots are now attracting the gymkhana crowd back in.
2. The ease of the commute to Dublin allied to Wexfords slacker planning restrictions than Wicklows mean those that want to build in the country see North Wexford as a real option.
3. Road and development money as you said.
4. Dairy. Around me I am becoming isolated at beef. Bar one tillage man hanging on the rest of the full timers are gone dairy. The banks will lend to dairy, not to beef, sheep, tillage nearly as handy.

Just my tuppence worth on it.

arctictree

Grueller wrote: »

4. Dairy. Around me I am becoming isolated at beef. Bar one tillage man hanging on the rest of the full timers are gone dairy. The banks will lend to dairy, not to beef, sheep, tillage nearly as handy.

Is this mainly because of the monthly milk cheque? Banks love to see a similar amount coming in every month.

I know for sheep, income is very erratic but it all adds up at the end of the year. I tried to get a bank loan recently and the bank were having none of it because I hadn't showed a profit in the last few years. Tried to explain that all my money was going back into the farm on capital projects but they wouldn't listen!

Panjandrums

This post has been deleted.

Grueller

Grueller wrote: »

There are exceptions. Around north wexford here land will freely make 12-15k per acre. Np shortage of buyers at that price point.
Friday coming there is a nice piece for sale. 13 really good acres. 3 good acres and about four rising onto a rock outcrop. 1 acre of a disused quarry which is complete waste. No road frontage and fairly rural. Be a good guide as it is purely agricultural.
https://www.quinnproperty.ie/property/bolinready-ballycanew-gorey-co-wexford-2/

That made €212,000. €9400 per acre.

Bass Reeves

arctictree wrote: »

Is this mainly because of the monthly milk cheque? Banks love to see a similar amount coming in every month.

I know for sheep, income is very erratic but it all adds up at the end of the year. I tried to get a bank loan recently and the bank were having none of it because I hadn't showed a profit in the last few years. Tried to explain that all my money was going back into the farm on capital projects but they wouldn't listen!

The rigamaroll with borrowing will again lead us down to a credit crisis. Banks now lend purely on metrics and client history is immaterial. Most lenders are incapable of looking at accounts in dept. You could have capital allowances swallowing up tax and they look only at the bottom taxable line.

Grueller wrote: »

That made €212,000. €9400 per acre.

the economics of buying land are varied. A sub 30 acre plot of land is within the grasp of many. The plot you showed could have attracted a lad interested in a few acres for a house and part time farm. It is also attractive to a joining farmers even 1-2 miles away. For a farmer with 50-60K as a deposit and to pay solicitors and taxes borrowing 170K would leave payments over 15 years of sub 15k/year. It did not say anything about BPS but if you were giving up rented land and had BFP of 300/HA this would offset nearly half the cost

Grueller

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The rigamaroll with borrowing will again lead us down to a credit crisis. Banks now lend purely on metrics and client history is immaterial. Most lenders are incapable of looking at accounts in dept. You could have capital allowances swallowing up tax and they look only at the bottom taxable line.




the economics of buying land are varied. A sub 30 acre plot of land is within the grasp of many. The plot you showed could have attracted a lad interested in a few acres for a house and part time farm. It is also attractive to a joining farmers even 1-2 miles away. For a farmer with 50-60K as a deposit and to pay solicitors and taxes borrowing 170K would leave payments over 15 years of sub 15k/year. It did not say anything about BPS but if you were giving up rented land and had BFP of 300/HA this would offset nearly half the cost

Purely ag land. In that location with potential for planning 12-15k per acre would be the guide.

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

Purely ag land. In that location with potential for planning 12-15k per acre would be the guide.

Why would it be purely ag land. I see that it is served by a lane but lots of lads that want 10-30 acres are not worried about road frontage. With 20ish acres in most counties getting planning is not impossible. While more than likely a farmer bought it, these size plots often attract lads and lassies that want a bit of land

Grueller

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Why would it be purely ag land. I see that it is served by a lane but lots of lads that want 10-30 acres are not worried about road frontage. With 20ish acres in most counties getting planning is not impossible. While more than likely a farmer bought it, these size plots often attract lads and lassies that want a bit of land

I understand all of that but it you would be apllying looking in across the back walls of 4 houses. Objections a plenty.

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

I understand all of that but it you would be apllying looking in across the back walls of 4 houses. Objections a plenty.

The field is about 300 metres deep. Lots of back planning in similar situation around the country

Grueller

A parcel near here sold on Wednesday. 2 lots. 16.4 acres in the first lot. That made €300k on the button. €18300 per acre
16 acre in the second. That made €265. €16500 per acre.
Gppd dry land fit for the plough but stony and maybe a little light of soil to be called really top quality.
Edited to say that there wasn't a dairy farmer in sight. Beef men were out in front bidding.

handlemaster

Grueller wrote: »

A parcel near here sold on Wednesday. 2 lots. 16.4 acres in the first lot. That made €300k on the button. €18300 per acre
16 acre in the second. That made €265. €16500 per acre.
Gppd dry land fit for the plough but stony and maybe a little light of soil to be called really top quality.
Edited to say that there wasn't a dairy farmer in sight. Beef men were out in front bidding.

Lots of cash still around

JupiterKid

This just completely seems like a replay of the 1998 to 2008 Celtic Tiger bubble when the price of land skyrocketed. That ended well, didn't it?

These things are purely cyclical in nature - boom and bust, driven by sentiment and speculation, not hard nosed economics. Let the buyer and vendor beware.

BigSteaks

Grueller wrote: »

A parcel near here sold on Wednesday. 2 lots. 16.4 acres in the first lot. That made €300k on the button. €18300 per acre
16 acre in the second. That made €265. €16500 per acre.
Gppd dry land fit for the plough but stony and maybe a little light of soil to be called really top quality.
Edited to say that there wasn't a dairy farmer in sight. Beef men were out in front bidding.

Beef men will always wipe the floor with dairy lads when it comes to buying land. Especially small plots. They dont have to rely on it turning a profit as they are usually parttime with other job paying for it. Dairy men require the enterprise to pay for it.

Also beef men usually buying for next generation and wealth status, i.e stop neighbour at all costs getting it. Round here dairy men only compete on rented ground. Money in land still, its only going up around here.

Grueller

BigSteaks wrote: »

Beef men will always wipe the floor with dairy lads when it comes to buying land. Especially small plots. They dont have to rely on it turning a profit as they are usually parttime with other job paying for it. Dairy men require the enterprise to pay for it.

Also beef men usually buying for next generation and wealth status, i.e stop neighbour at all costs getting it. Round here dairy men only compete on rented ground. Money in land still, its only going up around here.

I would be afraid that the dairy men will be back big time in 7-10 years fpr land as many are borrowed for expansion over that term and will have that income disposable then.
Also a dairy man needs the land at his own ditch. Beef men will buy fragmented land too.

handlemaster

Prices around the West seem to be held up with high demand from forestry. Price floor seems to be around 5k per acre

Bass Reeves

BigSteaks wrote: »

Beef men will always wipe the floor with dairy lads when it comes to buying land. Especially small plots. They dont have to rely on it turning a profit as they are usually parttime with other job paying for it. Dairy men require the enterprise to pay for it.

Also beef men usually buying for next generation and wealth status, i.e stop neighbour at all costs getting it. Round here dairy men only compete on rented ground. Money in land still, its only going up around here.

I think it is quite the opposite it is the extra large full time guy. usually with a massive SFP that is usually out in front. I have purchased land but owned none before. But I would only buy value. Both parcels shown in this are what I would call trophy purchases they will struggle to give an economic return.

fepper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think it is quite the opposite it is the extra large full time guy. usually with a massive SFP that is usually out in front. I have purchased land but owned none before. But I would only buy value. Both parcels shown in this are what I would call trophy purchases they will struggle to give an economic return.

But the seller wants a economic return from the sale of their land,it wont worry them whether the buyers makes a economic return on it or not,

MIKEKC

arctictree wrote: »

Is this mainly because of the monthly milk cheque? Banks love to see a similar amount coming in every month.

I know for sheep, income is very erratic but it all adds up at the end of the year. I tried to get a bank loan recently and the bank were having none of it because I hadn't showed a profit in the last few years. Tried to explain that all my money was going back into the farm on capital projects but they wouldn't listen!

You say you didn't show a profit in the last few years , yet expect to get a loan? Your accounts should have shown where the money went.

amacca

MIKEKC wrote: »

You say you didn't show a profit in the last few years , yet expect to get a loan? Your accounts should have shown where the money went.

They did....he said capital purchases...presumably he was improving the value of the asset, making it more efficient, workable and hopefully profitable/saleable longterm?

If I understand his post correctly he thinks the lender should take this into account as effectively he is more profitable or has the potential to be more profitable/viable than what the bottom line from the last 3 years would have you believe if that was the only metric one was going by......I tend to agree.

Who2

amacca wrote: »

They did....he said capital purchases...presumably he was improving the value of the asset, making it more efficient, workable and hopefully profitable/saleable longterm?

If I understand his post correctly he thinks the lender should take this into account as effectively he is more profitable or has the potential to be more profitable/viable than what the bottom line from the last 3 years would have you believe if that was the only metric one was going by......I tend to agree.

It’s a simple case of computer says no. Banks can’t look outside the box anymore unless your looking for a couple of million. Most farms Need to show some form of profit if they are going borrowing down the line.

amacca

Who2 wrote: »

It’s a simple case of computer says no. Banks can’t look outside the box anymore unless your looking for a couple of million. Most farms Need to show some form of profit if they are going borrowing down the line.

Oh I agree..............you might actually be smarter/more strategic long term not showing a profit especially if you are expanding but the guys/gals giving the loan want to see that profit....ironically making you potentially less profitable in the future.

Another one size fits all solution.

Bass Reeves

fepper wrote: »

But the seller wants a economic return from the sale of their land,it wont worry them whether the buyers makes a economic return on it or not,

I think you misunderstand my point. I was pointing out that it is lazy to make statement blaming part time farmers for land price inflation. It was just like excluding dairy farmers from the price inflation equation. By the way no buyer should worry about the economics of a seller. A farmers only friend is his pocket.

Having said that small parcels go crazy prices as they are often in the site plus land equation. In taht I mean if you take the value of a site out of them it changes the economics of the. As well if there is a derilict farmhouse on the propertyu in some parts of the country it gives planning which may not be available otherwise

BigSteaks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think you misunderstand my point. I was pointing out that it is lazy to make statement blaming part time farmers for land price inflation. It was just like excluding dairy farmers from the price inflation equation. By the way no buyer should worry about the economics of a seller. A farmers only friend is his pocket.

Having said that small parcels go crazy prices as they are often in the site plus land equation. In taht I mean if you take the value of a site out of them it changes the economics of the. As well if there is a derilict farmhouse on the propertyu in some parts of the country it gives planning which may not be available otherwise

You are kinda missing my point as well though Bass. Where am i blaming part time man? There is no excluding dairymen either especially on renting as i said where they are giving 300 an acre. Beef man cant compete there.

Not sure how many derelict houses or sites there are. But its a factor alright. I am west of shannon, land round me going for 14k an acre. Yes sfp big factor but these are small beef men as well as big beef men.

Now looking for your advice here. 14 acres coming up beside me. I have 250k to spend. I am thinking 2 bed apartment and rent.

Or do i give the neighbours a run for their money. Be 5/6 us bidding on this land when it comes up. Like myself part time lads. But i dont think i will have much change out of 250k. Tell me i am mad and to stay away from it!

fepper

BigSteaks wrote: »

You are kinda missing my point as well though Bass. Where am i blaming part time man? There is no excluding dairymen either especially on renting as i said where they are giving 300 an acre. Beef man cant compete there.

Not sure how many derelict houses or sites there are. But its a factor alright. I am west of shannon, land round me going for 14k an acre. Yes sfp big factor but these are small beef men as well as big beef men.

Now looking for your advice here. 14 acres coming up beside me. I have 250k to spend. I am thinking 2 bed apartment and rent.

Or do i give the neighbours a run for their money. Be 5/6 us bidding on this land when it comes up. Like myself part time lads. But i dont think i will have much change out of 250k. Tell me i am mad and to stay away from it!

If you think they will be 5/6 other bidders,it obviously is a desired plot of land and probably make top price with or without your participation

Who2

BigSteaks wrote: »

You are kinda missing my point as well though Bass. Where am i blaming part time man? There is no excluding dairymen either especially on renting as i said where they are giving 300 an acre. Beef man cant compete there.

Not sure how many derelict houses or sites there are. But its a factor alright. I am west of shannon, land round me going for 14k an acre. Yes sfp big factor but these are small beef men as well as big beef men.

Now looking for your advice here. 14 acres coming up beside me. I have 250k to spend. I am thinking 2 bed apartment and rent.

Or do i give the neighbours a run for their money. Be 5/6 us bidding on this land when it comes up. Like myself part time lads. But i dont think i will have much change out of 250k. Tell me i am mad and to stay away from it!

Well 250k on a two bed will end up costing money.14 acres at 250 will do the same. Rental needs to cover payment plus 10-12% minimum to make it worth while.

handlemaster

BigSteaks wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think you misunderstand my point. I was pointing out that it is lazy to make statement blaming part time farmers for land price inflation. It was just like excluding dairy farmers from the price inflation equation. By the way no buyer should worry about the economics of a seller. A farmers only friend is his pocket.

Having said that small parcels go crazy prices as they are often in the site plus land equation. In taht I mean if you take the value of a site out of them it changes the economics of the. As well if there is a derilict farmhouse on the propertyu in some parts of the country it gives planning which may not be available otherwise

You are kinda missing my point as well though Bass. Where am i blaming part time man? There is no excluding dairymen either especially on renting as i said where they are giving 300 an acre. Beef man cant compete there.

Not sure how many derelict houses or sites there are. But its a factor alright. I am west of shannon, land round me going for 14k an acre. Yes sfp big factor but these are small beef men as well as big beef men.

Now looking for your advice here. 14 acres coming up beside me. I have 250k to spend. I am thinking 2 bed apartment and rent.

Or do i give the neighbours a run for their money. Be 5/6 us bidding on this land when it comes up. Like myself part time lads. But i dont think i will have much change out of 250k. Tell me i am mad and to stay away from it!

You only live once if you want it buy it

handlemaster

BigSteaks wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think you misunderstand my point. I was pointing out that it is lazy to make statement blaming part time farmers for land price inflation. It was just like excluding dairy farmers from the price inflation equation. By the way no buyer should worry about the economics of a seller. A farmers only friend is his pocket.

Having said that small parcels go crazy prices as they are often in the site plus land equation. In taht I mean if you take the value of a site out of them it changes the economics of the. As well if there is a derilict farmhouse on the propertyu in some parts of the country it gives planning which may not be available otherwise

You are kinda missing my point as well though Bass. Where am i blaming part time man? There is no excluding dairymen either especially on renting as i said where they are giving 300 an acre. Beef man cant compete there.

Not sure how many derelict houses or sites there are. But its a factor alright. I am west of shannon, land round me going for 14k an acre. Yes sfp big factor but these are small beef men as well as big beef men.

Now looking for your advice here. 14 acres coming up beside me. I have 250k to spend. I am thinking 2 bed apartment and rent.

Or do i give the neighbours a run for their money. Be 5/6 us bidding on this land when it comes up. Like myself part time lads. But i dont think i will have much change out of 250k. Tell me i am mad and to stay away from it!

You only live once if you want it buy it

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

Well 250k on a two bed will end up costing money.14 acres at 250 will do the same. Rental needs to cover payment plus 10-12% minimum to make it worth while.

If you are talking about houses and apartments there is no way at present(or at any time) you would buy property and get enough in rent to make payments and 10-12% above that that a yield of around 25%. If you have a yield above 10-12% on property if you know your business you will make a profit.

digzy

A large parcel of land sold in south Tipp a few months ago. About 120 acres made €1.35 million.
Neither the purchaser nor the underbidder were farmers. Another parcel was sold near golden/cashel for a million....another non farmer.

Dunno if it’s right that ag land can be bought by non farmers who rent it for medium term leases tax free.

Good land is a very safe investment

fepper

digzy wrote: »

A large parcel of land sold in south Tipp a few months ago. About 120 acres made €1.35 million.
Neither the purchaser nor the underbidder were farmers. Another parcel was sold near golden/cashel for a million....another non farmer.

Dunno if it’s right that ag land can be bought by non farmers who rent it for medium term leases tax free.

Good land is a very safe investment

Non farmers buy land all the time and some even start farming it themselves from then on

parishsavings

fepper wrote: »

Non farmers buy land all the time and some even start farming it themselves from then on

Some non-farmers have to start somewhere!

Who2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you are talking about houses and apartments there is no way at present(or at any time) you would buy property and get enough in rent to make payments and 10-12% above that that a yield of around 25%. If you have a yield above 10-12% on property if you know your business you will make a profit.

Done regularly bass and the balancing point with most developers and property companies. I work with a lot of these sort of companies and while the average lad won’t get the foot in too handy these lads do. I worked on a couple of projects late last year with auctioneers setting a limit of 130k on buildings and a minimum rental potential of 1k per month. I didn’t think they were out there but they seemed to find them. Even more shocking if they start into commercial property. Paying 250k for a two bed and probably renting at 800 per month is pure madness. Even if he got 1100 per month there’s nothing in it. Throw in annual maintenance and maybe management fees and money’s being lost.

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

Done regularly bass and the balancing point with most developers and property companies. I work with a lot of these sort of companies and while the average lad won’t get the foot in too handy these lads do. I worked on a couple of projects late last year with auctioneers setting a limit of 130k on buildings and a minimum rental potential of 1k per month. I didn’t think they were out there but they seemed to find them. Even more shocking if they start into commercial property. Paying 250k for a two bed and probably renting at 800 per month is pure madness. Even if he got 1100 per month there’s nothing in it. Throw in annual maintenance and maybe management fees and money’s being lost.

That is a yield of less than 10%. Have seen a few two bed properties in small to mid sized town selling for 60-70K average rent would be 650-700/ month a yield of 12%. These houses are selling for less than 50% of building cost if they get any lift in value buyer is on a real winner.

handlemaster

awful_driver wrote: »

only risk there is the grotesque bias by the law in favour of tenants , if you encounter a delinquent tenant , its two years to get them out , if you have 70 k in cash to buy an apartment in the likes of tuam , you could get 700 per month from someone who cant afford to live in galway city , that is a good investment in terms of an income play

compare it with the guy who can at best buy 15 acres of farm land ( for 70 k ) which will at most pay him 3 k per year if he lets it out , the farmer who buys to farm it will probably earn no more off it as subsidies aside , the average beef man makes about a hundred euro profit per acre per year

Tuam ðŸ˜

charolais0153

handlemaster wrote: »

Tuam ðŸ˜

Probably gilmartin road:D

fepper

awful_driver wrote: »

it delivers a dismal yield , those purchases by non farmers are trophy buys by extremely high NET worth individuals , no way they arrived where they are now by investing in low return ventures like farm land

Inheritance tax benefits down the line would be a huge incentive there

Who2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

That is a yield of less than 10%. Have seen a few two bed properties in small to mid sized town selling for 60-70K average rent would be 650-700/ month a yield of 12%. These houses are selling for less than 50% of building cost if they get any lift in value buyer is on a real winner.

Maybe your making up your own figures here bass again but 130k 25 years repayments made, interest paid and all, work it out. Those were also minimum and maximum numbers. Also he said 250k on a two bed not 60/70k.
As for all the properties, based Navan, drogheda and Dundalk, a fair run from ballinasloe.

Bass Reeves

Who2 wrote: »

Maybe your making up your own figures here bass again but 130k 25 years repayments made, interest paid and all, work it out. Those were also minimum and maximum numbers. Also he said 250k on a two bed not 60/70k.
As for all the properties, based Navan, drogheda and Dundalk, a fair run from ballinasloe.

I am not saying that 1k/month will not pay a 130K loan over 25 years it more than likely will. But it is a yield of about 9%. I was not referring to the 250K apartments. I have seen a few two bed houses in mid sized town selling in the price range I quoted. Rental on them would be as I quoted.

TBH my view on buying property to rent is that it needs to be near you. If you live near Ballinsloe, I would not be investing in Dundalk if I was only handling one or two properties. It is easy to let costs swallow rent and harder to manage property that is more than an hours commute away. I would not turn my nose up at Ballinsloe if I lived near it and the yield was right.