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Fine Geals 10 year plan includes talk of infrastrucure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    thomasj wrote: »
    Speeds up the train journey , DART has more capacity than commuter trains, quicker starts/stops

    Polar bears and Climate Change also:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    if they were so serious about it, why knock back the original MN and DU, for inferior project that are going to end up costing more? :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    if they were so serious about it, why knock back the original MN and DU, for inferior project that are going to end up costing more? :rolleyes:

    Well if the Dublin Metro includes also upgrading the Green Line to Metro standard, then it wouldn't necessarily be inferior, just different. We have to wait and see what is revealed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    bk wrote: »
    Well if the Dublin Metro includes also upgrading the Green Line to Metro standard, then it wouldn't necessarily be inferior, just different. We have to wait and see what is revealed.

    one major advantage in my opinion, would be to have a driverless system! Will save the guaranteed strikes every few years, imagine the unions thinking they could shut down the airport / swords line i.e. how critical it is.. I dont see why a system, which wont even be in place until nearly the year 2025, in this country, wouldnt be automated as much as possible...

    seeing as the line will operate nearly 24 hours I would expect, the taxi drivers and any car parking operators at dublin airport wont be happy!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Copenhagen operates a driverless Metro, must be open about 20 years now. Interestingly, the vehicles are only about 3 cars long, similar capacity to Luas. They run at about a 2 minute frequency and the night service is outstanding (possibly 24 hour, can't confirm). This I imagine is down to the absence of a driver.



    Principally it is not difficult to have driverless trains on an underground line where passengers can be totally excluded from getting/falling onto the trackbed, but I'm not aware of driverless trains operating in Green line type scenarios (i.e. at grade crossings found between Ranelagh and Dundrum) anywhere.

    I assume an upgrade to Metro would mean larger, non-tram like vehicles (requiring taller platforms, more akin to heavy rail) and as such total grade separation, and also the adoption of a third rail system as opposed to pantograph?


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I assume an upgrade to Metro would mean larger, non-tram like vehicles (requiring taller platforms, more akin to heavy rail) and as such total grade separation, and also the adoption of a third rail system as opposed to pantograph?

    The green line was designed with the idea that it will be upgraded to Metro in future from the start.

    The planned Metro's actually aren't that different from the Luas. It is planned to be a "light rail" Metro. At least 60M, but hopefully 90M long trains, rather then 54M Luas, and maybe a little wider. But they will otherwise be very similar to Luas and use much the same tech, including tracks, same platforms and same overhead cables.

    The advantage of the Metro will mostly come from longer trains and more importantly higher frequency and speed due to full segregation. Yes that means those at grade junctions will need to go on the Green line.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Yet more major delays on the rail system - this time on the Bray line. While other countries roll out numerous rail projects, we run our railways into the ground. OK, I'm being very hard on Ireland, but let's put things in perspective: London has Crossrail coming soon - its latest addition along with the Thameslink upgrade and recent London Overground upgrades. They're now planning Crossrail 2 and well as HS2 to Birmingham. Look at Rennes in France - much smaller city than Dublin and yet they have a new metro. Then there's Bilbao in Spain with its Metro. Newcastle in England has a Metro - a city no bigger than Dublin. Ireland has a dysfunctional political system that so badly needs radical modernisation - only then can we dream of having a world class country in infrastructural terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Appeals can only be brought in the context of existing legislation and planning policy etc.

    Well Dublin City Council refused planning for a high rise on Tara st a few months ago, despite the LAP making specific provision for one on that site


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, in Dublin City Center. Because you know it is a city and it is perfectly normal to build high in a city.

    Don't tell that to me. Tell that to our elected officials and planners


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    lawred2 wrote: »
    what does that even mean?

    Are you familiar with Dublin City Centre? I mean the exact site where this 'tower' was proposed?

    Because the 'skyline' consists solely of some part occupied Soviet era inspired government aberrations.

    There is nothing of any value down there worth preserving.

    Chill out pal. I'm not talking about any specific site and I'm not saying anything about what a skyline should or shouldn't look like, I'm talking about the well discussed issues that come up time and time again in dublin city planning. Opposing views exist out there, I'm not saying any of them are correct or incorrect


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Well Dublin City Council refused planning for a high rise on Tara st a few months ago, despite the LAP making specific provision for one on that site

    Ok?
    Perhaps study the decision and see if there's a justifiable rationale in it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭ricimaki


    During leaders questions in the Dáil today, discussing the upcoming budget, Varadkar mentioned increased spending on infrastructure – to the tune of about €1.5 to €1.8bn. URL="http://www.thejournal.ie/leaders-questions-44-3606889-Sep2017/"]Link - scroll to 2.27pm[/URL

    What infrastructure can be got for this amount?
    Dublin Metro / Metro North?
    Dart expansion / rail improvements such as removing level crossings?
    Fund the design/planning of the M20?
    Rural broadband?
    Other road schemes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    ricimaki wrote: »
    During leaders questions in the Dáil today, discussing the upcoming budget, Varadkar mentioned increased spending on infrastructure – to the tune of about €1.5 to €1.8bn. URL="http://www.thejournal.ie/leaders-questions-44-3606889-Sep2017/"]Link - scroll to 2.27pm[/URL

    What infrastructure can be got for this amount?
    Dublin Metro / Metro North?
    Dart expansion / rail improvements such as removing level crossings?
    Fund the design/planning of the M20?
    Rural broadband?
    Other road schemes?
    The important question was what was the timeframe for such? It could get MN started easily for example with further funding coming through the 10 yr plan


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    We can't do much straight off the bat due to lack of schemes with planning.

    I'd imagine money will be given to accelerate the planning of:
    New Metro North
    DART Underground tunnel redesign
    DART expansion to Balbriggan
    Merrion Gates scheme
    Metro upgrade of Green Line south of Charlemont as part of Dublin Metro

    On roads:
    Money for planning for:
    Cork-Limerick, N6 Galway ring, A5 to Derry, N2 in Monaghan, N4 Mullingar-Longford, N14/N15 upgrades in Donegal

    Several schemes with planning will likely be accelerated:
    N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin
    N5 Westport-Turlough
    Dunkettle Interchange
    Macroom bypass

    And if they can get through planning in 2017/18, money for CPO and tender for:
    M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
    M21/69 Limerick-Foynes
    Galway ring as above
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Longford


    Realistically, some of this will also have to go towards the slight ballooning of costs of the National Broadband Plan


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    If by "Dart to Drogheda" they mean that they will electrify the line and provide longer distance "commuter" Dart services that will skip the inner stations... then that's fine.

    But they should be clearer about what they mean.

    The idea of a stopping Dart service all the way from Drogheda is patently ridiculous.

    If they are going to be running DARTs to Drogheda in the future, should they not invest in a fleet with on-board toilets and/or retro-fit the current fleet with them?

    I say this because it opens up the possibility for journeys originating in Greystones and terminating in Drogheda which would be well over 2 hours.

    Also, if it is going to be operating that far out, should it not be rebranded as the PART (Pale Area Rapid Transit) or EART (Eastern Area Rapid Transit)?

    After all, there is a portion of the train line which is based in Meath (Gormanston and Laytown) before it arrives in Louth (Drogheda). So, it crosses two county borders.

    The issue here is that if it becomes electrified, will that result in a reduction of frequency for trains operating to Dundalk?

    The electrification of the DART as far as Greystones has put quite a large block on even modest increases in frequency to Gorey and Rosslare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    If they are going to be running DARTs to Drogheda in the future, should they not invest in a fleet with on-board toilets and/or retro-fit the current fleet with them?

    I say this because it opens up the possibility for journeys originating in Greystones and terminating in Drogheda which would be well over 2 hours.

    Also, if it is going to be operating that far out, should it not be rebranded as the PART (Pale Area Rapid Transit) or EART (Eastern Area Rapid Transit)?

    After all, there is a portion of the train line which is based in Meath (Gormanston and Laytown) before it arrives in Louth (Drogheda). So, it crosses two county borders.

    The issue here is that if it becomes electrified, will that result in a reduction of frequency for trains operating to Dundalk?

    The electrification of the DART as far as Greystones has put quite a large block on even modest increases in frequency to Gorey and Rosslare.

    Agree the branding should be different. Always thought the "Arrow" brand complimented Dart well, not sure why they changed it to the ultra boring "Commuter".

    And so long as these mainlines remain 2 tracks, there will always be capacity problems.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Agree the branding should be different. Always thought the "Arrow" brand complimented Dart well, not sure why they changed it to the ultra boring "Commuter".

    And so long as these mainlines remain 2 tracks, there will always be capacity problems.
    I don't think the powers that be could get their heads around the concept of slow and fast lines. Try telling them about having the Down Belfast Fast Line and watch their faces! :rolleyes: Of course, most here would know that I'm referring to a northbound fast track (Enterprise, Express DART/Commuter etc.) from Dublin towards Belfast. Then there's the 'Cross Platform Interchange' thing - I seriously don't think they know what that is either! :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Just a devils advocate bit i was thinking about..

    Blanch isn't really the city (albeit it's highly populated). Maybe the high-rise that Leo is after is central.

    On the other hand, perhaps his constituents don't want it and thus get the gov they deserve.

    Well Leo certainly doesnt want it in his own constituency. He has objected strongly to a four storey apartment building in Castleknock. The council had already scaled it back for the ends of the building to be only two stories but Leo even objected to that. Shane Coleman wrote about it in yesterdays Indo about how he is talking out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to high rise. It is real NIMBY stuff.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Well Leo certainly doesnt want it in his own constituency. He has objected strongly to a four storey apartment building in Castleknock. The council had already scaled it back for the ends of the building to be only two stories but Leo even objected to that. Shane Coleman wrote about it in yesterdays Indo about how he is talking out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to high rise. It is real NIMBY stuff.
    For those who dislike high rise or even medium rise, I think we should extend Bunratty Folk Park... :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Middle Man wrote: »
    For those who dislike high rise or even medium rise, I think we should extend Bunratty Folk Park... :rolleyes:

    The castle there is too tall for some


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    The Dublin metro would have to be a 24 hour service considering the airport being busy 24 hours a day with passengers and employees. Have a rail transport service from Sandyford to Swords right though the city centre at all times will be a game changer for the city.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    ClovenHoof wrote:
    The Dublin metro would have to be a 24 hour service considering the airport being busy 24 hours a day with passengers and employees. Have a rail transport service from Sandyford to Swords right though the city centre at all times will be a game changer for the city.

    It'll be a long time before the Metro gets to Sandyford.

    Dart Underground is the real game changer though, more so than the Metro to the airport imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I think extending the Dart to Balbriggan is a daft idea, and I wish it would be called out for what it is, much like how the 78 million saving for short platforms on the "new Metro North" would be.

    There's no turnback facilities or sidings etc there, much like how it is for Malahide now except worse. The service will only get worse for everyone further north with increased congestion on the line. It's not a very comfortable journey on trains without toilets all the way from Balbriggan either, assuming it's all-stopping also.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,318 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Post deleted as off topic rant.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Dart Underground is the real game changer though, more so than the Metro to the airport imo.

    I've seen one or two people say this but I've never understood why?

    Obviously DU is very important, but I don't see it being more important then Dublin Metro.

    DU doesn't bring rail to anywhere that doesn't already have rail. It just potentially improve services for areas that already have rail. Of course great for folks on those lines, but not really a major change.

    Dublin Metro on the other hand looks to be far more important imo.

    First of all it brings rail to Dublin Airport and connects it speedily to the city. Being a small island on the edge of Europe with a mostly service based economy with lots of international companies here, makes Dublin Airport the single most important piece of infrastructure we have. So connecting DA to the city by Metro is not only a priority for Dublin, but a national priority (along with the second runway) IMO.

    Then you have Swords, the 5th largest urban area in Ireland, yet the only one without rail, all while being a commuter town of Dublin. Madness! They plan on building 40,000 new homes in Sowrds once DM is built, which directly ties in with the other current national priority of solving the housing crises

    Then you have upgrading the Green line to Metro which should allow 10' of thousands more apartments in South Dublin. Again helping with the housing crisis.

    And finally you have the fact that North Dublin inside the M50 is actually the most densely populated area of Ireland, yet has no rail.

    I really don't see how just bringing DART to some areas that already have rail is going to be more important then all of the above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I think DU is a game changer as it vastly improves the service across.a wide part of Dublin, makes the train service much more relevant to the SW where there is the most potential for new housing and business development in Dublin, and links the city centre areas with the highest workplace and economic activity, with the lines that have huge potential to carry more passengers also. Metro North doesn't do anything for the city centre, but it is a huge improvement for Swords and D9. DU joins up areas of huge economic activity with a wider network. And with something better than 60 metre platforms.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lucernarian, so a bunch of train stations that already have commuter rail get upgraded to DART. Great for them, but I really don't see how that is more beneficial then everything Dublin Metro offers.

    I don't see how the SW of Dublin has anymore potential for new housing then Swords, North Dublin and South of Dublin do! Massive plans for thousands of new apartments in these areas. Not much currently planned for the SW

    Don't get me wrong, DU is very important, but I've never seen a convincing argument why DU offers more then DM.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Also I don't know how you can say that it won't do anything for the city centre!

    The main city centre axis is South to North, this will allow people quickly and easily get from Stephens Green Area to OConnell St and Henry street area. Also the city centre will benefit massively from being able to get quickly too and from the airport.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Whilst DART Expansion and Metro North are both Dublin centric schemes, they are very different and have very different benefits for different areas. Neither is more important than the other, because they offer massive benefits to different areas. Both are absolute top priority schemes.

    DART Expansion will provide increased capacity on the DART lines, and also provide one thing we don't have, a heavy rail network in Dublin. Having a network as opposed to a series of unconnected lines is massive.

    Metro brings rail access to places that don't have it, and provides high quality rapid transit to a corridor that should've had it years ago. My main issue with the Metro is when you take it into account with everything along it, I can see it reaching capacity quite quickly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    bk wrote: »
    lucernarian, so a bunch of train stations that already have commuter rail get upgraded to DART. Great for them, but I really don't see how that is more beneficial then everything Dublin Metro offers.

    I don't see how the SW of Dublin has anymore potential for new housing then Swords, North Dublin and South of Dublin do! Massive plans for thousands of new apartments in these areas. Not much currently planned for the SW

    Don't get me wrong, DU is very important, but I've never seen a convincing argument why DU offers more then DM.
    I'm sorry that you don't find anything convincing in what I wrote. Looking at the amount of available land between Ballymun and the airport (intended for office/business use currently), plus the amount of land available between the airport and Swords (even less here), there's just not the amount of land available all the way from Kishoge, the potential of Adamstown, and further out all the way to Sallins.

    Unfortunately for Metro North, it benefits the established parts of Swords more than on the western side like where the bus routes go closer towards. Shuttle bus setups could help with this but there aren't lots of convincing examples where local shuttles plus modal shift work.

    I would appreciate if you didn't trim the other parts of my message though, even if you don't agree with points.
    Edit: the Luas BXD was supposed to provide just the sort of mobility on rails from SSG to Parnell Square, so it's ironic to talk about "unserved areas" now getting served by rail.


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