Honda

Echoes675

So, somethings been rattling around in the back of my mind for the last few months about Honda.

Their return to F1 has been quite the embarrassment and every week that passes it just gets worse.
But, what I've been wondering about is their entries in other motorsports. The Blades raced by John McGuinness and Guy Martin in the road races this year were fairly bad to the point that McGuinness has said he may (possibly, probably) retire and Martin has gone off (again) to other racing.
And on top of that Honda are pulling out of Moto2 with Triumph taking over and the death of the CBR600rr

So my question is what the hell is happening with Honda racing?

H3llR4iser

Echoes675 wrote: »

So, somethings been rattling around in the back of my mind for the last few months about Honda.

Their return to F1 has been quite the embarrassment and every week that passes it just gets worse.
But, what I've been wondering about is their entries in other motorsports. The Blades raced by John McGuinness and Guy Martin in the road races this year were fairly bad to the point that McGuinness has said he may (possibly, probably) retire and Martin has gone off (again) to other racing.
And on top of that Honda are pulling out of Moto2 with Triumph taking over and the death of the CBR600rr

So my question is what the hell is happening with Honda racing?

I'm not that clued in with their motorbikes racing situation, I thought they were rather a benchmark there - but when it comes to F1, it's not the first time Honda pulled a complete fiasco. People always and exclusively remember the best - when they think Honda in F1, they think Marbloro McLaren, they think Mp4/4, Senna, Prost, domination - or even the Williams stint in 1985-1987.

In truth, Honda's history in F1 has been mostly an embarrassing one of failure and stubbornly refusing to admit their concepts, projects and technical solutions were either subpar or just plain wrong.

They tried the "Works team" card in 1964, with the "all in house, all in Japan" mentality, managed to win a race but were mostly uncompetitive. At the time, it was the chassis that was the issue; When they produced a decent one it was because they essenitially swallowed their pride and asked Lola to help.

After surviving through Mugen as an engine supplier, mostly to midfield teams in the '90s, there came the BAR-Honda stint, which then became a works team once again. They had flashes of good performances, especially in the 2004-2006 era, but never really managed to "step it up".

The rest is history - 2007 and 2008 saw Honda being essentially regular features at the back of the grid, sometimes even beaten by their satellite Super-Aguri team, until they pulled out just before the 2009 season. Brawn bought the team out, swapped engines for the Mercedes ones, and they won a championship. Realistically speaking, probably Honda managed another gem of a fiasco there - they decided to up and run away exactly when they finally, after nearly 50 years, had produced a world-beating F1 car.

Then there is the recend McLaren history that everyone know about. They'll likely switch to supplying Toro Rosso with an outlook into Red Bull, but I don't think the latter will happen; Unless they hire somebody from the outside, with experience and knowledge of current F1 engineering, they'll still lag behind.

In a nutshell, what's wrong with Honda? Politics and stubborn company pride.

Harika

They are not pulling out of Moto2, their contract ended and there was not much interest from them supplying more engines so Triumph took over. In MotoGP they are still top notch, same as in Superbike. Indycar they are competitive too. Overall F1 is not working, besides that they are doing good.

AMKC

The rest is history - 2007 and 2008 saw Honda being essentially regular features at the back of the grid, sometimes even beaten by their satellite Super-Aguri team, until they pulled out just before the 2009 season. Brawn bought the team out, swapped engines for the Mercedes ones, and they won a championship. Realistically speaking, probably Honda managed another gem of a fiasco there - they decided to up and run away exactly when they finally, after nearly 50 years, had produced a world-beating F1 car.

If Honda had of stayed for the 2009 season do and there engines were the ones being used the outcome might not have been the same.
Would JB have won the WDC had the team still been Honda? I guess we will never know.

Echoes675

Harika wrote: »

They are not pulling out of Moto2, their contract ended and there was not much interest from them supplying more engines...

Is this not the same thing as them pulling out of Moto 2? I'm sure if they were interested they would have gone to renew the contract.

Fair enough on your other points though, maybe I'm joining dots on unrelated topics...

Harika

Echoes675 wrote: »

Is this not the same thing as them pulling out of Moto 2? I'm sure if they were interested they would have gone to renew the contract.

Fair enough on your other points though, maybe I'm joining dots on unrelated topics...

Honda tends to look for competition to beat, usually Toyota. If there is no competition they tend to leave, while on the other side when competition is there spending ridiculous amounts of money on it.

H3llR4iser

AMKC wrote: »

The rest is history - 2007 and 2008 saw Honda being essentially regular features at the back of the grid, sometimes even beaten by their satellite Super-Aguri team, until they pulled out just before the 2009 season. Brawn bought the team out, swapped engines for the Mercedes ones, and they won a championship. Realistically speaking, probably Honda managed another gem of a fiasco there - they decided to up and run away exactly when they finally, after nearly 50 years, had produced a world-beating F1 car.

If Honda had of stayed for the 2009 season do and there engines were the ones being used the outcome might not have been the same.
Would JB have won the WDC had the team still been Honda? I guess we will never know.

We'll never know; There were indeed some malignant opinions in the paddock that even the 2008 chassis was not bad at all and that it was the engine being a complete and total turd...it's possible these people had got it right.

donspeekinglesh

Harika wrote: »

Indycar they are competitive too

Dunno about the bike engines, but the IndyCar project is run by HRD (Honda Racing Developments) so involvement from Japan is less than on the F1 engine.

AMKC

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Dunno about the bike engines, but the IndyCar project is run by HRD (Honda Racing Developments) so involvement from Japan is less than on the F1 engine.

Maybe thats what Honda should do with there F1 engines.

CJhaughey

Harika wrote: »

They are not pulling out of Moto2, their contract ended and there was not much interest from them supplying more engines so Triumph took over. In MotoGP they are still top notch, same as in Superbike. Indycar they are competitive too. Overall F1 is not working, besides that they are doing good.

Honda's superbike effort is crap!
Unless you count the BSB series where there is a great deal of equalisation then you can't say they have had any success in the WSBK paddock for a long time.
MotoGP their bikes are good but they should be at that level.
For me Honda have lost a lot of what they should be in the last 10 years, they are not innovative like they used to be and engineering for engineering sake has disappeared with it.
Basically I think they are too bland and corporate now.

Harika

CJhaughey wrote: »

Honda's superbike effort is crap!
Unless you count the BSB series where there is a great deal of equalisation then you can't say they have had any success in the WSBK paddock for a long time.
MotoGP their bikes are good but they should be at that level.
For me Honda have lost a lot of what they should be in the last 10 years, they are not innovative like they used to be and engineering for engineering sake has disappeared with it.
Basically I think they are too bland and corporate now.

They are waiting for 2019 to bring in the new Fireblade until then the effort will be focused on MotoGP, what you clearly see by the choosing of their drivers.

CJhaughey

Harika wrote: »

They are waiting for 2019 to bring in the new Fireblade until then the effort will be focused on MotoGP, what you clearly see by the choosing of their drivers.

There has been some very good riders on the latest Fireblade and they achieved nothing. Hayden RIP Bradl, Giugliano,Takahashi and Gagne were pencilled in this season on the New 'Blade.
I don't think they are all that bad, Guy Martin and John McGuinness both injured by the Bike, Casey Stoner injured in Suzuka '15.
The bike might be a good streetbike but its not a good racebike compared to the competition.