BMW i3 and battery

the corpo

Got a demo of the i3 yesterday, and may be smitten. Budget would only stretch to a 2nd hand one from the UK though, bunch of 2014/2015 models turning up on UK sites for about 15k.

I can't see specifically what battery these have, but is there scope to easily upgrade the battery over the years? The import saving is colossal, so I'm wondering if it's worth offsetting the saving against a better battery upgrade when they come online?

punisher5112

the corpo wrote: »

Got a demo of the i3 yesterday, and may be smitten. Budget would only stretch to a 2nd hand one from the UK though, bunch of 2014/2015 models turning up on UK sites for about 15k.

I can't see specifically what battery these have, but is there scope to easily upgrade the battery over the years? The import saving is colossal, so I'm wondering if it's worth offsetting the saving against a better battery upgrade when they come online?

Battery upgrade would be a no go with such high costs.

Look at 6.6kw leaf or if can stretch budget look at ioniq

the corpo

punisher5112 wrote: »

Battery upgrade would be a no go with such high costs.

Look at 6.6kw leaf or if can stretch budget look at ioniq

I'm not smitten with those though

On a 2014/15 i3 what would be a reasonable expectation of driving time?

cros13

Battery upgrade is offered only for the BEV version not the REx. Cost for the current upgrade (from 22kWh to 34kWH) is ~€7k with part exchange of the current pack.

Doesn't make financial sense vs buying a post 162 car with the current battery.
The price of the upgrade is a function of the cost of the battery cells, and if you ignore the free battery pack you are returning they are effectively selling the newer packs at cost price + fitting (takes about an hour to physically swap the pack and then some time to do software updates).
Very few people have gone for the battery upgrade and many local markets have declined to offer the option. Funnily enough this has lead to BMW having a severe deficit of returned packs for the grid storage projects they've sold and they've been using new battery packs.

Battery prices are going down all the time though so I'd expect BMW's pricing to soften a little.
Another issue is that apart from those people with an actual need for more range (who are in the minority) there isn't really a market for the battery upgrade. Certainly pack degradation isn't an issue (after 140,000km and rapid charging the bejesus out of my pack I've lost less than 10%).

the corpo

Thanks for the info. So after 140k, what kind of range are you getting per charge? And what year i3 have you?

cros13

the corpo wrote: »

Thanks for the info. So after 140k, what kind of range are you getting per charge? And what year i3 have you?

I'm down about around ~6-7% on a full charge vs new. 151.

thierry14

cros13 wrote: »

I'm down about around ~6-7% on a full charge vs new. 151.

3% a year in our climate

Is that good for a liquid cooled pack?

Down to 70% after 10 years

Thought liquid cooled was supposed to have very little degradatation?

Understand the Leaf/Ioniq as they use cheap stuff for cooling

Dardania

thierry14 wrote: »

cros13 wrote: »

I'm down about around ~6-7% on a full charge vs new. 151.

3% a year in our climate

Is that good for a liquid cooled pack?

Down to 70% after 10 years

Thought liquid cooled was supposed to have very little degradatation?

Understand the Leaf/Ioniq as they use cheap stuff for cooling

they have at least double the national average km per year? So maybe a lower degradation rate per annum should be considered?
@cros13 - do you know in BMW offer the battery change service in Ireland?

KCross

I don't think degradation is linear either. Too many variables (time, heat, charge cycles, mileage etc). I think the big hit is in year 1, then it tapers off a bit.

The liquid cooling only has an effect if you are in a hot climate or doing a lot of rapid charging. Thats borne out by the fact that the new Leaf is again only passive cooled. Nissan wouldn't stand over it if they thought liquid cooling was required. They have a lot of data from the existing cars to know whats right and wrong at this stage.

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

3% a year in our climate

Is that good for a liquid cooled pack?

Down to 70% after 10 years

After 10 years of the duty cycle it's under right now it would have over 600,000km on the odometer. Not many combustion cars survive that long. And at 70% capacity the car would still be useful as a runabout or you can swap the pack and do another 600,000.

If I wasn't putting so many cycles on the pack I'd be giving the pack a much easier time. For example with the newer 34kWh pack doing the same mileage would be possible in almost half the cycles.
And as I've mentioned previously my pack takes a lot of abuse in the form of aggressive discharge from high speed driving and lots of long distance journeys with

Dardania wrote: »

they have at least double the national average km per year? So maybe a lower degradation rate per annum should be considered?
@cros13 - do you know in BMW offer the battery change service in Ireland?

Yes they do. €7k to upgrade from 22kWh to 34kWh. Not aware of anyone who's taken up the offer.

KCross wrote: »

I don't think degradation is linear either. Too many variables (time, heat, charge cycles, mileage etc). I think the big hit is in year 1, then it tapers off a bit.

Yup, my logs show the usual initial drop of ~1-2% in the first few months as the pack bedded in then a long slow near plateau from about 10,000km to my current mileage.

thierry14

cros13 wrote: »

After 10 years of the duty cycle it's under right now it would have over 600,000km on the odometer. Not many combustion cars survive that long. And at 70% capacity the car would still be useful as a runabout or you can swap the pack and do another 600,000.

If I wasn't putting so many cycles on the pack I'd be giving the pack a much easier time. For example with the newer 34kWh pack doing the same mileage would be possible in almost half the cycles.
And as I've mentioned previously my pack takes a lot of abuse in the form of aggressive discharge from high speed driving and lots of long distance journeys with



Yes they do. €7k to upgrade from 22kWh to 34kWh. Not aware of anyone who's taken up the offer.



Yup, my logs show the usual initial drop of ~1-2% in the first few months as the pack bedded in then a long slow near plateau from about 10,000km to my current mileage.

All true

Didnt notice your mileage

What makes you think for definite it will last 600k km

Drive train could go bang after warranty, whats a new drive train cost?

Motors have went in Teslas and would cost over 20k to fix outside warranty

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

What makes you think for definite it will last 600k km

That's just extrapolating from the current rate of degradation. There's all sorts of factors that could affect the pack long term but generally with modern lithium ion there's an initial small drop in capacity followed by a long slow slide and then around ~70% decline accelerates (which is another reason we use that as the benchmark of pack life).

thierry14 wrote: »

Drive train could go bang after warranty, whats a new drive train cost?

Sure... I have the drivetrain warranty for just another 20,000km (it's 8 years/160,000km). The i3 is a fairly simple machine on that side and I've never had the slightest issue with the drivetrain. The first mechanical maintenance on the actual drivetrain is reduction gear oil at 240,000km and other than that it's the odd fluid here and there for brakes & power steering. My first service was this January and my next is in 2019 (in my case the first three services are free).
Personally I'm switching car in the next 12-18 months... depending on what I'd get for trade-in I may hang on to the i3.

thierry14 wrote: »

Motors have went in Teslas and would cost over 20k to fix outside warranty

If the motor did go bang entirely, a new one is ~€1700... and after the warranty is done with, I have the service manuals/procedures.
i3 parts (with the exception of the HV battery and any damage to the CFRP frame) are fairly cheap... it's the BMW dealer labor rates you want to avoid paying for.

thierry14

cros13 wrote: »

That's just extrapolating from the current rate of degradation. There's all sorts of factors that could affect the pack long term but generally with modern lithium ion there's an initial small drop in capacity followed by a long slow slide and then around ~70% decline accelerates (which is another reason we use that as the benchmark of pack life).



Sure... I have the drivetrain warranty for just another 20,000km (it's 8 years/160,000km). The i3 is a fairly simple machine on that side and I've never had the slightest issue with the drivetrain. The first mechanical maintenance on the actual drivetrain is reduction gear oil at 240,000km and other than that it's the odd fluid here and there for brakes & power steering. My first service was this January and my next is in 2019 (in my case the first three services are free).
Personally I'm switching car in the next 12-18 months... depending on what I'd get for trade-in I may hang on to the i3.



If the motor did go bang entirely, a new one is ~€1700... and after the warranty is done with, I have the service manuals/procedures.
i3 parts (with the exception of the HV battery and any damage to the CFRP frame) are fairly cheap... it's the BMW dealer labor rates you want to avoid paying for.

That's reassuring tbh

EV's are awesome

Well high powered ones like your i3 and Teslas anyway

Water John

Here's another model with a 100Kwh battery for your short list. Will run for five hours.
Get a lot of work done with this......tractor.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/100-electric-tractor-from-fendt-runs-for-5-continuous-hours/

Wheety

I drove an i3 a couple of times. Great experience. Checking autotrader.co.uk all the time now. Around £15k for a 2014 one hmmm.

jhegarty

Wheety wrote: »

I drove an i3 a couple of times. Great experience. Checking autotrader.co.uk all the time now. Around £15k for a 2014 one hmmm.

Make sure you get one with rapid ac & dc charging. Lots of the UK 2014s without them.

Wheety

jhegarty wrote: »

Make sure you get one with rapid ac & dc charging. Lots of the UK 2014s without them.

I'm guessing they're the cheaper ones.

Do they all come with REX?

jhegarty

Wheety wrote: »

I'm guessing they're the cheaper ones.

Do they all come with REX?

They can do. But DC with Rex is very rare a 2014.

Took me months to find one.

the corpo

Nice to see Larry David driving an i3 in this weeks Curb Your Enthusiasm, I'm coveting it even more now!

boardzz

the corpo wrote: »

Nice to see Larry David driving an i3 in this weeks Curb Your Enthusiasm, I'm coveting it even more now!

He's driving a Model S in next week's episode.

The I3 is brilliant fun. It's a strange beast, I was never in a car that had such a soft suspension and such great handling !

It felt like a bouncy castle but handled like it was on rails and the poke was great !

I seriously would not get one without the ReX. It's no fun having to fast charge so frequently on a long run and the Rex still allows you to have fun while not worrying about range. No point having such fun if it doesn't last long.

I test drove a 2016 33ah Rex a few months ago from Dublin all around Galway and back, the Rex really gives you peace of mind but in 600 odd Kms if I remember correctly the Rex kicked in only for about 5 mins from Dublin to Galway on the way to the fast charger and it wasn't used again !

It's easier to live with the 33 Ah I3 but the Rex is still very convenient with 170 Kms range on battery at 110 Kph give or take and non winter driving. I wouldn't have the 21 Kwh without the Rex.

The 40 Odd Kwh in 2019 should make a big difference but it will be a hard sell against the Model 3 and even the 40 Kwh Leaf.

Trust me, as an EV owner for nearly 3 years and 80,000 Kms , get the Rex !

M S E

Irish review of the i3 (0:00 to 25:00 and then 31:30 to end). I have a good bit to learn about electric cars myself but found the review useful as an introduction to them.

M S E

M S E wrote: »

Irish review of the i3 (0:00 to 25:00 and then 31:30 to end). I have a good bit to learn about electric cars myself but found the review useful as an introduction to them.

Have you driven any ev ? if not take a spin in an I3, it will make you smile !

M S E

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you driven any ev ? if not take a spin in an I3, it will make you smile !

I haven't driven an ev yet but from what I can tell from the video the acceleration surprised me- would definitely be worth a test drive to see.

M S E

M S E wrote: »

I haven't driven an ev yet but from what I can tell from the video the acceleration surprised me- would definitely be worth a test drive to see.

Absolutely worth a test drive, I guarantee you'll love it ! Just see if you can get it on your own for a few hrs, it's great fun on back roads, it's great to over take. I over took safely in situations I wouldn't dare in the leaf when I had it out in Galway.

cros13

The new i3S will be even more fun. 40% more power in the mid-range, redesigned suspension, widened track and rear tires.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely worth a test drive, I guarantee you'll love it ! Just see if you can get it on your own for a few hrs, it's great fun on back roads, it's great to over take. I over took safely in situations I wouldn't dare in the leaf when I had it out in Galway.

All the posters in here ganged up on me when I was saying torque doesn't matter **** for overtaking, all about the bhp

This kinda proves my point

Leaf has 280nm and i3 has 250nm

Extra torque means nothing.

Its all about the 170bhp and 1300kg in i3 vs 107bhp and nearly 1500kg in the Leaf

I3s has a very good power to ratio, would be nice to drive

The post 2013 leaf only has 250 Nm and the torque is limited from about 6000 rpm which occurs at around 90 km/h and there is only about 150 Nm left at the top speed.

power=torque*rpm

Leaf would have about 160 bhp without the torque limitation.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

The new i3S will be even more fun. 40% more power in the mid-range, redesigned suspension, widened track and rear tires.

Oh FFS, do you have to Torment me ?

It would be great alright, just such a shame it doesn't have at least 40 Kwh.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

All the posters in here ganged up on me when I was saying torque doesn't matter **** for overtaking, all about the bhp

This kinda proves my point

Leaf has 280nm and i3 has 250nm

Extra torque means nothing.

Its all about the 170bhp and 1300kg in i3 vs 107bhp and nearly 1500kg in the Leaf

I3s has a very good power to ratio, would be nice to drive

Torque and HP go hand in hand, without Torque you won't move, without HP you have no power to move.

I3 doesn't give you the wow factor when you hit the throttle after coming from the Leaf because they feel similar up to maybe 80 Kph where the extra power of the I3 takes over where the Leaf falls off, it makes a big difference and of course the lighter chassis of the I3 helps.

Depending on conditions the RWD makes a difference too, I couldn't spin the wheels no matter how hard I tried but having said that the take off power is a lot more limited these days I believe due to tweaking of the software. Th "S" should change that.