N2 - Ardee to Castleblayney [suspended due to lack of funding]

marno21

TII are planning a new 36km dual carriageway on the N2 from Ardee to south of the Castleblayney bypass.

Planning work to start shortly with work progressing as finance becomes available.

Leo's planned new Capital Plan involving decent road access to the north west is tipping away nicely.

roadmaster

Would there be any difficulty in upgrading the carrick bypass or is it wide enough for 4 lanes?

marno21

Confirmation from Shane Ross that TII have begun work on the project:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-09-20a.1597

BelfastVanMan

marno21 wrote: »

Confirmation from Shane Ross that TII have begun work on the project:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-09-20a.1597

This is for the N59..?

marno21

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

This is for the N59..?

Apologies, this is the correct link: https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-09-20a.472

roadmaster

if i had my way i would scrap the planned N52 bypass and instead where this N2 DC ends at Ardee i would extend it all the way to ashbourne

marno21

roadmaster wrote: »

if i had my way i would scrap the planned N52 bypass and instead where this N2 DC ends at Ardee i would extend it all the way to ashbourne

The plan seems to be to direct traffic onto the M1 at Ardee. Ardee-Emyvale will be getting the 2+2 treatment

roadmaster

Why do they want to direct 75% of the traffic coming from the north of country on to one archery would it not be better to split the load with the N/M 2 instead

marno21

roadmaster wrote: »

Why do they want to direct 75% of the traffic coming from the north of country on to one archery would it not be better to split the load with the N/M 2 instead

Because of the cost of upgrading the N2. The money would be much better spent elsewhere.

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

Because of the cost of upgrading the N2. The money would be much better spent elsewhere.

The N2 has already seen a lot investment with the M2 north of Ashbourne. Improvements to the N2 (Slane bypass) and priority north of Ardee to link with the M1 are perfectly sensible.

roadmaster

so will the N33 in the long run be upgraded to Type Two DC

BelfastVanMan

roadmaster wrote: »

so will the N33 in the long run be upgraded to Type Two DC

Presumably at the same time as the N2 Ardee bypass, whenever that will be...

(Years away...)

marno21

Looks like the shackles have been removed from the N2 Ardee-Castleblayney and this will now proceed, hopefully funded in 2018. This scheme, along with Clontibret-Emyvale are likely in Leo's new Capital Plan.

Of course, this all assumes the Government doesn't collapse

Shane Ross wrote:

In light of the findings of the review, discussions have taken place between officials of TII and the road authorities concerned, Monaghan and Louth County Councils, and it has been agreed that the improvement of a 36km section of the N2 between Ardee and Castleblayney will be progressed as a major road project. Monaghan County Council and Louth County Council, with the support of TII, will, therefore, commence the establishment of a project team and the procurement of Technical Advisors to bring the scheme from inception to the preparation of CPO/EIS documentation and Business Case.

marno21

Phases 1-4 of this has now gone to tender (feasibility study, route selection, design & statutory process). In effect, the ball is now rolling on this project.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=128940

annfield1978

Jacobs likely to be appointed for this in the next few weeks

Kermit.de.frog

Will this be a motorway?

Should be as main route to Derry.

marno21

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Will this be a motorway?

Should be as main route to Derry.

2+2 dual carriageway. Insufficient volume for motorway

Irish Steve

A more urgent issue would be to resolve the problems on the section from the end of the M2 to Kentstown that are stopping developments in the Ashbourne area, and causing long delays every day. There is a massive issue at Primatestown, the traffic light controlled junction there is over capacity, but "the system" is implying that it could take many years to resolve the issue, which for thousands of commuters is an unacceptable response.

Part of the problem is the significant numbers of people (both cars and goods vehicles ) that use the N2 to avoid the tolls on the M1 and M3, but I can't see any will to change that any time soon, despite the problems it causes.

marno21

Irish Steve wrote: »

A more urgent issue would be to resolve the problems on the section from the end of the M2 to Kentstown that are stopping developments in the Ashbourne area, and causing long delays every day. There is a massive issue at Primatestown, the traffic light controlled junction there is over capacity, but "the system" is implying that it could take many years to resolve the issue, which for thousands of commuters is an unacceptable response.

Part of the problem is the significant numbers of people (both cars and goods vehicles ) that use the N2 to avoid the tolls on the M1 and M3, but I can't see any will to change that any time soon, despite the problems it causes.

There's a seperate scheme being planned to dual the N2 from Ashbourne to Kilmoon Cross, presumably with grade seperation of the Rath roundabout north of Ashbourne and bypassing the mess at Kilmoon Cross

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057826802

Planning is now underway on that one.

Sam Russell

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Just because you are anti American like a number on here is not my problem.

My opinion is my opinion. Bigger, better roads.

Get over it.

Mod: Do not attack posters. Take a warning.

Irish Steve

marno21 wrote: »

There's a seperate scheme being planned to dual the N2 from Ashbourne to Kilmoon Cross, presumably with grade seperation of the Rath roundabout north of Ashbourne and bypassing the mess at Kilmoon Cross

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057826802

Planning is now underway on that one.

I wish. The most recent update (September meeting) is that there is that €25K has been approved for a survey (another one) to determine how bad the issue is, and the latest report that was given to the local councillors was that it could take a decade to get the planning and funding process completed, which is a nightmare, as not only are there traffic issues now, the lack of a decent road structure in the area is also hindering development at places like Tayto Park, which is not helping local employment.



The local District Council (Ashbourne) are so frustrated with this issue that it's now a standing item on the agenda every month to ensure that the executive don't put it on the long finger again. Kilmoon Cross is an issue, but the real problem is the junction at Primatestown, which has had to be traffic light controlled to reduce the number of accidents there, and to ensure that it is possible to get in or out of the Ratoath road at peak periods. Ideally, the upgrade needs to go out as far as the Kentstown junction to ensure that the road from Navan is also dealt with, due to the significant traffic volumes that come to and from that direction on to the N2.

roadmaster

I asked before about this and I think someone said they may as part of this project upgrade the N33 to 2+2 to have the same all the way from the M1. So in saying that just to similfy route names could we see the N33 run from ardee/m1 to the border and the N2 from finglas to Ardee ?

BelfastVanMan

roadmaster wrote: »

I asked before about this and I think someone said they may as part of this project upgrade the N33 to 2+2 to have the same all the way from the M1. So in saying that just to similfy route names could we see the N33 run from ardee/m1 to the border and the N2 from finglas to Ardee ?

Unlikely.
Although I see your logic, I think it could be that maybe sometime in the future, the N52 will be renamed the N33, which is more befitting of it's status as main cross-country road from Dundalk to Limerick, once it's all up to scratch.
Don't hold your breath, though..

marno21

MOD: Several off topic posts, mainly squabbling and comparisons with the US, have been deleted. Please stay on topic

marno21

roadmaster wrote: »

I asked before about this and I think someone said they may as part of this project upgrade the N33 to 2+2 to have the same all the way from the M1. So in saying that just to similfy route names could we see the N33 run from ardee/m1 to the border and the N2 from finglas to Ardee ?

I think a good compromise would be renaming the N33 as the N2, with the N2 south of Ardee being renumbered a national secondary. It won't serve any primary purpose when this dualling is done and the standard south of Ardee will be lower than north of Ardee

It will be similar to the N81 which shadows the M9, this could be the N88 shadowing the M1 (N2).

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

I think a good compromise would be renaming the N33 as the N2, with the N2 south of Ardee being renumbered a national secondary. It won't serve any primary purpose when this dualling is done and the standard south of Ardee will be lower than north of Ardee

It will be similar to the N81 which shadows the M9, this could be the N88 shadowing the M1 (N2).

Don’t you think Derry Dublin traffic will continue to use the N2/M2 via Ashbourne? Especially if the Slane bypass planned gets done. Physically shorter route, less traffic in ward to the city and no toll vs Drogheda.

marno21

road_high wrote: »

Don’t you think Derry Dublin traffic will continue to use the N2/M2 via Ashbourne? Especially if the Slane bypass planned gets done. Physically shorter route, less traffic in ward to the city and no toll vs Drogheda.

Quite possibly, however designating the M1 and N33 as the main route will move a substantial amount of traffic to the full dualled route, and safer route.

The Slane bypass and Ashbourne-Kilmoon dualling will improve the N2 but there will still be a substantial amount of single carraigeway between Kilmoon Cross and Ardee.

Freeflowing the N2 dual carriageway north of Ardee directly into the N33 would help also.

marno21

Tender for Phases 0-4 awarded to Jacobs. And we're off

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=128940&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=2&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

marno21

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=142481&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Tender issued for traffic surveys along the rote

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=142481&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Tender issued for traffic surveys along the rote

Awarded to Tracsis. Presumably underway now.

Should be a scheme website up soon with details on the initial public consultation and some information on what's planned for the route.

marno21

Public consultations happening this month on this 32km section of N2 between Ardee and Castleblayney

Jacobs are now working on a constraints study as part of Phase 1 of TII's Project Management Guidelines. Details are available on the scheme website

Project website now live at www.n2monaghanlouth.ie

An initial timeline has also been published

2019 - constraints study
2019 - route options development and publication
2020 - route options appraisal and publication of emerging preferred route
2020/2021 - confirmation of preferred route
2021/2022 - completion of design appraisal and statutory documents followed by submission to ABP following Government approval

roadmaster

The Public Consultation dates have being announced . Link below from N2 website

https://files.basekit.com/2a/7c/2a7c1e7e-b08a-4eb0-80bd-bbc945c9bbf6.pdf

marno21

Submissions after the public consultation have now closed (25th July). Route options to be published by year end as per above schedule.

marno21

Route options to be published this coming week.

marno21

Route options: https://files.basekit.com/0c/04/0c04c8bc-8e7e-4787-bedc-a381d49051b7.pdf

Detailed maps: https://n2monaghanlouth.ie/clontibret-to-border-route-corridor-options-maps

Yellow please.

L1011

marno21 wrote: »

Yellow please.

For cost (and likely priority based on such) reasons?

marno21

L1011 wrote: »

For cost (and likely priority based on such) reasons?

Yes or yellow/blue

I’m not very familiar with the route but I do know there was heavy upgrades in the last 20 years or so including the Carrickmacross bypass. The main driver behind the upgrade is safety due to head on collisons

Pete_Cavan

Yes I think road upgrades going forward are going to have to be online to the greatest extent possible. Obviously things like alignment, geographical features, geology, settlements, etc. could require some or complete offline routing but the amount of environmental screening means going offline should be limited where possible. Building through fields is going to get more difficult and expensive, for both planning and construction, going forward.

That section of the N2 is generally straight with decent gradients and there is actually limited enough properties on the side of the road so online upgrade makes sense.

spacetweek

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes I think road upgrades going forward are going to have to be online to the greatest extent possible. Obviously things like alignment, geographical features, geology, settlements, etc. could require some or complete offline routing but the amount of environmental screening means going offline should be limited where possible. Building through fields is going to get more difficult and expensive, for both planning and construction, going forward.

What? It’s quite the opposite. Online widening in Ireland would destroy hedgerows which is a no-no.
Going through fields is ok as they are monocultures.
I agree archaeology is a potential issue which wouldn’t be the case for online but you can usually know about the potential for finds in advance.
The reason online is appropriate for this scheme is that much of the route was upgraded relatively recently.

L1011

Not many hedgerows on the 80s-00s WS2 that most online dualling proposals are for

In a lot of places it'll happen within the existing road surface width if going 2+2 anyway!

The Dark Knight

L1011 wrote: »

.....In a lot of places it'll happen within the existing road surface width if going 2+2 anyway!

What is the proposal for this stretch of road?
2+2, 2+2 with grade separated junctions, or HQDC?
Assume traffic volumes don't justify Motorway.

marno21

The Dark Knight wrote: »

What is the proposal for this stretch of road?
2+2, 2+2 with grade separated junctions, or HQDC?
Assume traffic volumes don't justify Motorway.

2+2 is presumed. Volumes don’t warrant motorway. Too early to say regarding junctions also but hopefully grade separated like the N4/N5/N22 schemes started recenrly

Pete_Cavan

spacetweek wrote: »

What? It’s quite the opposite. Online widening in Ireland would destroy hedgerows which is a no-no.
Going through fields is ok as they are monocultures.
I agree archaeology is a potential issue which wouldn’t be the case for online but you can usually know about the potential for finds in advance.
The reason online is appropriate for this scheme is that much of the route was upgraded relatively recently.

Offline build would also require cutting through a hedgerow every couple of hundred metres so is unlikely to be significantly less damaging than online. With online, the widening can be limited to one side and this can alternate to minimise impact. Online isn't going to interfere with the route of some snail or damage bog cotton or any of the other random things which see road projects appealed and delayed to cancellation. You also don't have to deal with farmers complaining about their lands being divided.

spacetweek

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Offline build would also require cutting through a hedgerow every couple of hundred metres so is unlikely to be significantly less damaging than online.

That's a lot less hedgerows than if you widened online. But biggest disadvantage is that the traditional road network in Ireland is very twisting so all you'd end up with is a wide twisty road.

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

That's a lot less hedgerows than if you widened online. But biggest disadvantage is that the traditional road network in Ireland is very twisting so all you'd end up with is a wide twisty road.

None of the major onlining proposals are for anything other than straight enough WS2, generally built offline to begin with.

Donegal Storm

Most realignments of old twisty roads essentially end up as a whole new road with the old alignment 'retired' or given over to local access.

This stretch of the N2 is already wide and decent quality though so online is a no brainer. In fact I'd hope it's down the priority list quite a bit, it's a road I drive fairly often so I'd love to see it upgraded but there's plenty other N roads that need attention before this stretch

marno21

Post consultation report has been published:

https://monaghan.ie/roadtransport/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2020/08/Ardee-to-Castleblayney-Road-Scheme.pdf

spacetweek

Not much in that.

lucernarian

This is a very high-quality mainline route as it is. The regional roads throughout the region that connect to this route are appalling also. I don't think any of the current or projected AADT figures warrant 2+2 ANYWHERE along this stretch.

The N33 has higher AADT values, why is it not considered for 2+2?

Besides, from Leitrim to Louth there is basically no route that satisfactorily links all these places in between. The N53 is good now, but the section across the border is in an utter heap. West of Castleblayney the route options are hilariously bad with every single road into and out of Ballybay or Shercock being asphalted and widened dirt tracks.

This is completely the wrong solution for the entire region and there are so many smaller and desperately needed schemes to improve journey times and safety.

I would expect this scheme to be one of the first, and frankly, easiest to cancel if there's an expected recalibration of funding for infrastructure. It is totally unnecessary compared to more pressing road schemes and there isn't much popular demand locally for a road of this scale. Compare this as a political issue with the M20, N5, N86 for example. It's not a road that features prominently in local politics or during elections. The section from Monaghan to the border yes, but not Ardee to Castleblaney.

I'm also curious as to why the public consultations and community engagement aren't being done in house. How come some roads projects are managed internally with their respective council when it comes to PR and engagement, or is it a perk that comes with Jacobs during the design stages?

lucernarian

I've raised this personally with someone in Jacobs and tbh they're just told what to do by TII or indeed the relevant roads office.

This scheme gives the impression that there's a design office of qualified and capable people who just don't have anything else to work on and within the confines of the law, can't be redeployed to other parts of Ireland or work on other really necessary schemes.

The department of transport are fine with not rocking the boat, but if politics (and indeed current coalition policy) was a priority, the route from Dundalk go Cavan would be a national secondary route and the outrageous sums on this N2 scheme would be instead used where it's actually needed.

I wonder how many people reading this have actually driven on any of the shambolic regional roads in Monaghan. Probably the only regional road that's not in an utter state is the R188 and maybe the R162, both running north to south. The situation in Cavan is a little better, especially the cootehill to Cavan part, but this scheme is an example of a system that's unable to anything except "think big".