300% more properties available on Airbnb than daft

jamesthepeach

Another property headline today.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/300-more-properties-available-on-airbnb-than-daftie-in-dublin-804433.html


Gee I wonder why.
Daft better get in on the short term rental market before they get left behind.

gizmo81

I've written to the Minister about this and received a lengthy response;


The proposals under consideration aim to facilitate the short-term letting of accommodation within permanent residences – homesharing – while protecting the existing stock of residential property in areas of high demand, safeguarding neighbourhood amenity and consumer protection and generating revenue to address negative externalities of short term letting.

jamesthepeach

It will never happen. Let me know if it does. Until then, thats just the way it is.

Hotels would be just delighted though if it did.

Tourists would not.

gizmo81

There's a backlash worldwide to Air BnB I've linked to this across various threads, too many non-owners exploiting the platform, they have to do something.

Also, something will be done about apartment complexes as the article suggests,

The Sunday Independent reports that management companies are resorting to canceling key fobs if owners are found to be using their apartments as short term lets.

jamesthepeach

gizmo81 wrote: »

There's a backlash worldwide to Air BnB I've linked to this across various threads, too many non-owners exploiting the platform, they have to do something.

Well we'll just have to wait and see then. In the meantime Airbnb is taking over from regular let's.

gizmo81

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Well we'll just have to wait and see then. In the meantime Airbnb is taking over from regular let's.

You don';t have to wait, as the article says Management Companies are cancelling fobs, others have banned it.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-airbnb-is-breaking-up-communities-nationwide-36094655.html

Residents say they feel like victims in their own homes due to the increase in short-term holiday lets

And Spencer Dock has banned Air BnB, others are following

http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/spencer-dock-residents-banned-subletting-12057505

super_furry

How many of those Air BnB lets are for a room in a house rather than a full let though?

jamesthepeach

gizmo81 wrote: »

You don';t have to wait, as the article says Management Companies are cancelling fobs, others have banned it.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-airbnb-is-breaking-up-communities-nationwide-36094655.html

Residents say they feel like victims in their own homes due to the increase in short-term holiday lets

And Spencer Dock has banned Air BnB, others are following

http://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/spencer-dock-residents-banned-subletting-12057505

Imagine if all those fobs weren't cancelled. It would be way more than 300%

I think this is a wake up call for rent controls.
They don't work. In fact they are detrimental wherever they have ever been introduced.

gizmo81

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Imagine if all those fobs weren't cancelled. It would be way more than 300%

I think this is a wake up call for rent controls.
They don't work. In fact they are detrimental wherever they have ever been introduced.

I don't believe it has anything to do with rent controls. in the apartment back I had to move out of because of Air BnB there were no landlords letting through Air BnB.

It was tenants and this is reflected on the Air BnB website, most hosts are 20 something foreign nationals.

worded

But the taxes that have to be paid by air bnb hosts are very high and yet still hosts host ?

It's. It worth being a host if you have to pay 50% tax so why does it continue ?

yer man!

Would love to see an NYC type ban on AirBnB in Dublin. Not allowed to let out a whole apartment for less than 30 days.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/10/21/13361536/airbnb-new-york-cuomo-bill-ban-short-term

This crisis is just out of control and significant measures need to be taken.

stevedublin

Title gives the impression that there are 3 times the number of properties on airbnb (short-term tourists mostly) than are rented to long-term tenants (people who live and work in the country.
I think this is misleading:
1. Airbnb properties are usually listed all the time (even if currently let since owners want to take bookings for vacant dates which come around quickly)
2. longer term rentals are only on daft.ie for shorter times before a current tenant moves out and is delisted when a new tenant is found
3. with rent controls in place for much of the country, tenants may be more likely to stay with the same rental

wordofwarning

yer man! wrote: »

This crisis is just out of control and significant measures need to be taken.

I agree. We need to stop scapegoating Airbnb for a start!

I have been on insideairbnb to see all the Airbnb's around where I live. I was surprised with how many there were. So started clicking them. I discovered in my area, out of the 10/15 or some entire lets. Bar one or two of them, none were in fact available to let. If you were to stick your house up on Airbnb for the 2 weeks you were in France. Several months later it was still showing up on insideairbnb. In fact a family friend who hosted once on Airbnb well over two years ago and hasn't since was still showing up on insideairbnb...

If I took all the listing of daft.ie and all the listings on insideairbnb for the last 2 years (as that is what some journalists are doing...), it would seem like there is no housing crisis. But if you use flawed data, you get impression that there are huges amounts of Airbnbs that simply are not there

Banning Airbnb is not the solution. Airbnb is popular in Dublin as hotels are a complete rip off. Banning Airbnb is not going to going address the hotel room shortage in the city, but make it worse. Airbnb would not be so popular, if there were a healthy level of hotel rooms. We need to build more hotels. You don't need a PhD in economics to see if hotel rooms are nearly entirely full during the Summer what banning Airbnb will do tourist numbers in Dublin

Banning Airbnb in Dublin is going to be like the Berlin ban. Politicians are going to take a ton of credit for solving the housing crisis. When in reality they have had minimal impact on the housing crisis. Airbnb is only a problem in Dublin due to the shortage of apartments/houses.

Banning Airbnb is dangerous. Everyone in Government will be giving themselves credit for 'easing the housing crisis' by banning Airbnb. They will have done nothing of the sort. But it will appease the masses who can't see through that

circular flexing

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Imagine if all those fobs weren't cancelled. It would be way more than 300%

I think this is a wake up call for rent controls.
They don't work. In fact they are detrimental wherever they have ever been introduced.

Even without rent controls, the (potential) profit to be made on Airbnb would still far outweigh the rental potential.

GGTrek

People should not use insideairbnb for any data analysis since its author massages the data for his own communist agenda:

http://www.murraycox.com/venezuela/

Graham

GGTrek wrote: »

People should not use insideairbnb for any data analysis since its author massages the data for his own communist agenda:

http://www.murraycox.com/venezuela/

That link doesn't tell me much other than the author has opinions about Venezuela. Did I miss the Irish Airbnb connection?

Del2005

worded wrote: »

But the taxes that have to be paid by air bnb hosts are very high and yet still hosts host ?

It's. It worth being a host if you have to pay 50% tax so why does it continue ?

The majority of long term rental is by landlords with 1 or 2 dwellings. They are paying 50% tax on much lower income with zero protection from rouge tenants and a potential huge fine if they do anything wrong.

That's the reason why when rents are at their highest level thousands of landlords are selling up or going short term only, if we had a functioning system people would be rushing to invest in rental properties. There is no rush.

worded

Del2005 wrote: »

worded wrote: »

But the taxes that have to be paid by air bnb hosts are very high and yet still hosts host ?

It's. It worth being a host if you have to pay 50% tax so why does it continue ?

The majority of long term rental is by landlords with 1 or 2 dwellings. They are paying 50% tax on much lower income with zero protection from rouge tenants and a potential huge fine if they do anything wrong.

That's the reason why when rents are at their highest level thousands of landlords are selling up or going short term only, if we had a functioning system people would be rushing to invest in rental properties. There is no rush.

Ah ok I understand how it's attractive to LL renting entire properties.

But the 50% tax is a disencentive to someone letting a single room and turning it from a private dwelling to a commercial property and the threat of being hit with capital gains in the sale of the place in the future.

I know someone who air bnb a room for just a few days before the tax scare into and then dropped the idea like a hot pototato.

LuckyLloyd

They're not paying tax to the standard required.

worded

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They're not paying tax to the standard required.

What do you mean ?

GGTrek

Graham wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

People should not use insideairbnb for any data analysis since its author massages the data for his own communist agenda:

http://www.murraycox.com/venezuela/

That link doesn't tell me much other than the author has opinions about Venezuela. Did I miss the Irish Airbnb connection?

He is the creator of insideairbnb. He has a clear agenda:
http://insideairbnb.com/behind.html

antoinolachtnai

The first thing is: It is always going to appear like there is more overnight/short-stay accommodation than housing. The reason is that people hardly ever move their home (maybe once in 1000 nights) but they change their overnight/short-stay accommodation every night or two. Every time people move out, the property has to be re-advertised, and they are always moving in and out.

The second thing is that hotels are paying rates. They are paying about 1250 euros per room per year in Dublin 2 from a quick look (my reference is the hotel on Fenian St) which is 4 euros per room per night. Airbnb's don't pay any equivalent levy. The easy thing would be to throw a similar levy into the mix, maybe a bit higher.

Graham

GGTrek wrote: »

He is the creator of insideairbnb. He has a clear agenda:
http://insideairbnb.com/behind.html

Sorry GGTrek, I see absolutely no evidence that the author having an opinion on Venezuela is having any effect on the data.

I notice that the author is making the raw data available for download, I'd consider that to be fairly transparent.

wordofwarning

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They're not paying tax to the standard required.

In what sense?

I see a lot of non-sense on how everyone on Airbnb is evading taxes. Yet none of them seem to realise that Revenue gets data from Airbnb on revenue earned by host. There is zero room for tax evasion, as it is entirely trackable with the paper trail

beauf

yer man! wrote: »

Would love to see an NYC type ban on AirBnB in Dublin. Not allowed to let out a whole apartment for less than 30 days.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/10/21/13361536/airbnb-new-york-cuomo-bill-ban-short-term

This crisis is just out of control and significant measures need to be taken.

... you realize reducing the rental stock further isn't going to help anything...

gizmo81

beauf wrote: »

... you realize reducing the rental stock further isn't going to help anything...

How will the rental stock be reduced?

What about all the tenants listing the spare room on Air BnB instead of Daft. If Air BnB is banned in non-permanent residences 2moro do you think they'll not put a long term tenant in the spare room?

Graham

beauf wrote: »

... you realize reducing the rental stock further isn't going to help anything...

Reverting holiday accommodation back to residential is.

beauf

It won't revert back because no one wants to be a LL.

All that will happen is you will have more people competing for even less spaces.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

It won't revert back because no one wants to be a LL.

In which case most of it will be sold, still back to residential so still a gain.

beauf

There are 300% more properties for rent on Airbnb in Dublin than there are to rent on Daft.ie.

..its renting thats the main problem... (not the only problem)

Graham

People move out of rented accommodation when they buy, freeing up rental units. Still a gain.

whatnext

AirBnB as a landlord is not a bed of roses. The work is huge and the difference in gains are minimal. The key difference is risk.
Rework the laws to facilitate swift removal of delinquent tenants, enforce debt recovery on them also and within 1 week there will be 3 less airBnB's and 3 more properties available for rent in Dublin, I'm sure others would do the very same.

By swift I mean they if they are in rent arrears by 30 days they are out on the 30th day, by force if necessary. They become the states problem not the landlords.

davindub

wordofwarning wrote: »

In what sense?

I see a lot of non-sense on how everyone on Airbnb is evading taxes. Yet none of them seem to realise that Revenue gets data from Airbnb on revenue earned by host. There is zero room for tax evasion, as it is entirely trackable with the paper trail

You would think...

Plenty of people actually do try this, I only meet the ones that have been caught or are about to get caught, but they all complain the system is out to get them, it was a mistake, etc. Just some people think it's unfair not to catch them straight away when penalties are low.

worded

whatnext wrote: »

AirBnB as a landlord is not a bed of roses. The work is huge and the difference in gains are minimal. The key difference is risk.
Rework the laws to facilitate swift removal of delinquent tenants, enforce debt recovery on them also and within 1 week there will be 3 less airBnB's and 3 more properties available for rent in Dublin, I'm sure others would do the very same.

By swift I mean they if they are in rent arrears by 30 days they are out on the 30th day, by force if necessary. They become the states problem not the landlords.

I'm not a LL. It from what I hear you would want to be mad to be one.
A tenant that turns rogue can take 6 months + to get out and little chance to recover lost rent. One of those could bank rupt you

Why doesn't the Govt change the laws on this ?

Ah it's air bnbs fault for not so many let's .... no it clearly isn't

LuckyLloyd

worded wrote: »

What do you mean ?

wordofwarning wrote: »

In what sense?

In the sense that huge swathes of people making money on AirBnB are not paying some or all of the tax they owe.

wordofwarning wrote: »

I see a lot of non-sense on how everyone on Airbnb is evading taxes. Yet none of them seem to realise that Revenue gets data from Airbnb on revenue earned by host. There is zero room for tax evasion, as it is entirely trackable with the paper trail

You are entitled to believe that.

circular flexing

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In the sense that huge swathes of people making money on AirBnB are not paying some or all of the tax they owe.



You are entitled to believe that.

https://www.airbnb.ca/help/article/1378/responsible-hosting-in-ireland

Reporting Obligations:

Airbnb Ireland is legally required under Sections 888 and 890 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to provide certain information in relation to Irish host earnings annually to the Irish Revenue. Irish host earnings are:

All rental income earned by Irish resident hosts in respect of both Irish and foreign listings; and
All rental income earned by non-Irish resident hosts in respect of Irish listings.

So if payment is processed through the Airbnb platform (as it should) then it will be reported to Revenue. I would agree that it doesn't necessarily mean the tax is being paid but Revenue do have the data if needed.

LuckyLloyd

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

People move out of rented accommodation when they buy, freeing up rental units. Still a gain.

A house renting to 4 or more changes to 1 or 2 occupants. Net loss I reckon.

But I'm sure the Govt will see an opportunity to over heat the market still further while appearing to do something. They've been consistent in that at least.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

A house renting to 4 or more changes to 1 or 2 occupants. Net loss I reckon.

An apartment hosting 4 holidaymakers reverting to even 2 residential occupiers is still a residential gain.

I fail to see your logic to be honest. Returning 3000 properties to the residential market (the equivalent of a small town) is significant however you look at it.

I can think of no easier way for the government to bring 3000 properties to the residential market. It wouldn't even need new legislation.

worded

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

Maybe? It's a digital trail of money paid. You would want to be naieve to think anyone earning over a few 1000 PA will be let away without paying tax on it and fines on top of that for not declaring it.

A few high profile tax cases put on to RTÉ the Govt propaganda machine will have some nervous air bnb hosts dropping the idea

But perhaps I'm wrong

beauf

All the measures so have worked so well. Why not try another.

jamesthepeach

beauf wrote: »

All the measures so have worked so well. Why not try another.

But it's not the fault of the measures you know.
It's evil landlords.
But sure we can get the fcukers some other way with new measures, and blame them when it's gone wrong too.

antoinolachtnai

You can tinker around the edges, and certainly the 'buy-to-airbnb' movement going on in one area of the city should be countered, but at the end of the day, it is only really going to give you back hundreds of units. What we really need is a lot more units.

jamesthepeach

As long as there is someone to blame it's fine.
Ministers are not about housing people. They are about change, blame and leave.

VonBeanie

worded wrote: »

I'm not a LL. It from what I hear you would want to be mad to be one.
A tenant that turns rogue can take 6 months + to get out and little chance to recover lost rent. One of those could bank rupt you

Why doesn't the Govt change the laws on this ?

Ah it's air bnbs fault for not so many let's .... no it clearly isn't

It can be 18+ months and it can very easily bankrupt a small scale landlord.

Addressing this would be the single biggest thing the government could do to tackle the supply of rental property and the drift from long term lets to short term lets by Landlords.

It is possible. In the UK, 3 months rent arrears is automatic grounds for eviction. No messing about with pointless tribunals in the RTB and appeals and appeals of appeals. If a LL has 3 months arrears, its 1 visit to the county court where the LL will get an eviction order - automatically. Its then the local councils job to rehouse the tenant.

In Ireland, the government (local or national) don't want the responsibility to deal with homelessness. Its easier to leave someone squatting in private rented accommodation, than rehouse them. Its short term thinking that is doing more to add to lack of rental supply than any other measure. There just seems to be more votes in addressing the symptoms than solving the problem.

wordofwarning

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

What is the point you are trying to make? What should the state do?

Revenue knows each and every cent they have earned on the platform. They will go after them eventually for taxes owed. Most people using the platform are paying taxes as they are know that there is a paper trail and they have will get caught if they don't pay taxes.

The_Conductor

whatnext wrote: »

AirBnB as a landlord is not a bed of roses. The work is huge and the difference in gains are minimal. The key difference is risk.
Rework the laws to facilitate swift removal of delinquent tenants, enforce debt recovery on them also and within 1 week there will be 3 less airBnB's and 3 more properties available for rent in Dublin, I'm sure others would do the very same.

By swift I mean they if they are in rent arrears by 30 days they are out on the 30th day, by force if necessary. They become the states problem not the landlords.

Just keep in mind- even if every single property on Airbnb were incremented onto Daft- it would only be 4,360 rooms in private residences, and 4,614 residences- many of which are being sublet by tenants (some journalists are suggesting over half of Irish airbnb is by individuals other than the owner of the property)- and not by landlords in the first instance........

Equating Airbnb- with rental property on Daft (or elsewhere)- is comparing apples with pineapples- yes, they're both fruit- but they're most certainly not the same fruit...........

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can tinker around the edges, and certainly the 'buy-to-airbnb' movement going on in one area of the city should be countered, but at the end of the day, it is only really going to give you back hundreds of units. What we really need is a lot more units.

Antoin- honestly- I'm not sure that there is such as thing as a buy-to-airbnb sector. Investors do not want to be landlords in the current regulatory regime- period- and while the risk might be lower with airbnb- its a pain in the arse trying to run an airbnb- the maintenance is astronomical, and the demands of airbnb'ers are in some cases insane.......... I sometimes have a look at the comments about properties in certain areas and/or developments on airbnb- when I'm bored, your jaw would drop at the expectations some people have........ Raceweek in Galway-is a bit of an eye opener..........

Anyone who thinks airbnb automatically equates with a commensurate number of rental properties- and is a good measure of rental properties that are being taken out of circulation- is in for a big surprise if/when they regulate to the extent that people abandon airbnb as well...........

A useful measure- Permanent TSB sent letters today to landlords with delinquint mortgages- covering 4 times the number of airbnb lettings nationally- offering to take the properties off their hands, sell them, and cancel the negative equity. Now- that'll make a rather large hole in the rental market- but on the plus side- it will be largely offset by people relinquishing rental properties in favour of buying- however, obviously FTBs won't be interested- which is 60% of the market- so the prices of these will be depressed...........

Another case of be careful what you wish for- you just might get it..........

antoinolachtnai

There is a buy-to-airbnb sector in certain desirable areas (nice residential areas very near the city). I don't know how long it will last, but it does exist.

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is a buy-to-airbnb sector in certain desirable areas (nice residential areas very near the city). I don't know how long it will last, but it does exist.

Fair enough- I know there is similar in Galway too- however, I would put a serious question mark over how many are involved on the one hand- and to what extent its the owner of the property- rather than the tenant, who is doing this. If you enquire about airbnb in D2 for example- the 'hosts' are almost exclusively of a certain non-national ethnicity- and if you do a similar search in Galway city- this holds true.

Much as I disapprove of airbnb- a lot of the criticism of landlords letting on airbnb- quite simply are illfounded hearsay- the facts on the ground tell an entirely different story. I'm not saying there are no airbnb investors- I am saying they are an incredibly small proportion of the declared hosts- and I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of the owners of properties featured on airbnb- are not aware that their properties are being let there...........

LuckyLloyd

I don't really care whether the Landlords are to blame or not. I have also the same anecdotal conclusions as a tenant in a D2 apartment complex with multiple units let out to AirBnB with respect to the non native nature of the hosts. Not that their ethnicity matters either, the activity is:

A) taking viable long term residential properties off the market
creating a poor experience for genuine residents in a community

Point A is exacerbated when the LandLords have expressly let out their apartment for the purpose of a long term let. That skews figures, reporting, identification, tax considerations, the lot. And it ultimately contributes to a distortion of the rental market.

This is not about scapegoating LandLords, and technically it's not about scapegoating AirBnB. However, just as has been the case in other cities, AirBnB is facilitating unscrupulous character's exploitation of gaps in legislation and inefficiencies in housing / accommodation markets. This creates unregulated economic activity outside the intended scope of planning permission, commercial registration, etc.

AirBnB will say that their vision is for people to let out a spare room when it suits to provide alternative travel options and experiences. The reality is that AirBnB is being used as a commercial platform. The largest purveyor of short term holiday accommodation owns no property. That's a problem.

wordofwarning wrote: »

What is the point you are trying to make? What should the state do?

Revenue knows each and every cent they have earned on the platform. They will go after them eventually for taxes owed. Most people using the platform are paying taxes as they are know that there is a paper trail and they have will get caught if they don't pay taxes.

The State should introduce legislation / regulation into a commercial market. It needs to ask whether this commercial activity is in the current interests of our society, and fits with the short to long term needs of the Capital.

From the Tax perspective, I don't believe Revenue are up to date. And I question the efficacy of their information in scenarios where a tenant (potentially of multiple residential properties) morphs into a host. Your faith in the system is touching though.