Social housing offers for all ireland

handlemaster

Is it not time that offers of housing include the whole republic and not just done county by county . If someone is homeless surely the location of the property should not be an issue to turn down a home. People speak about been close to family and friends who dont house them as if that is reason enough to turn housing down. Another is schools same educational system in all counties should not be an issue to turn down a property.

gizmo81

handlemaster wrote: »

Is it not time that offers of housing include the whole republic and not just done county by county . If someone is homeless surely the location of the property should not be an issue to turn down a home. People speak about been close to family and friends who dont house them as if that is reason enough to turn housing down. Another is schools same educational system in all counties should not be an issue to turn down a property.

If you watch any of the UK documentaries on this topic two things spring to mind:

People are being separated from family and friends, leading to isolation. Someone independent living with mental illness moved 6 hours from their family removing all their support. Or a single mother with a toddler.

Class warfare in city spaces.

Gatling

People only want to live in one particular area or estate ,
Even those living in hotels and b&b are still turning down offers of social housing , something has to be done 100,000 people can't expect to live in a handful of areas or estates

handlemaster

Someone with registered mental health issues yes. Someone who has a kid no. Your kid your decision. . Cant rent privately then take the free home where ever that maybe

Sleeper12

Some homeless people are fragile or have special needs. It's not suitable for some people to live outside their support network. For example someone with autism most likely suffers from anxiety. They may not be able to live too far from their family.

I don't think people should be able to pick & choose especially with the amount on the social housing. Having said that I do think that they should be able to hope for a home near their family and friends. By near I think within 5 miles for Dublin. Outside of Dublin within their own county.

There's plenty that should be taken into account. Ideally kids should not have to move schools etc

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

People only want to live in one particular area or estate , Even those living in hotels and b&b are still turning down offers of social housing , something has to be done 100,000 people can't expect to live in a handful of areas or estates

Totally agree with you but I would change "even those living in hotels" to "even some of those living in hotels"
Most haven't been offered anywhere yet

handlemaster

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Some homeless people are fragile or have special needs. It's not suitable for some people to live outside their support network. For example someone with autism most likely suffers from anxiety. They may not be able to live too far from their family.

I don't think people should be able to pick & choose especially with the amount on the social housing. Having said that I do think that they should be able to hope for a home near their family and friends. By near I think within 5 miles for Dublin. Outside of Dublin within their own county.

There's plenty that should be taken into account. Ideally kids should not have to move schools etc

Mental health is a point to be located near to family and friends if possible. Kids going to a particular school is BS. Workers move all the time with their families I never heard of a government support for workers kids so why should anyone else get special treatment

yabadabado

If you can afford to buy your own home then its up to you to pick the area.People turning down homes for no other reason than they want to be near their mam/dad/other need to be told to cop the **** on.
Obviously it's a totally different situation if a person has health/mental health issues but people not willing to move 30 minute drive from the area they grow up is beyond a joke.

ash23

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Having said that I do think that they should be able to hope for a home near their family and friends. By near I think within 5 miles for Dublin. Outside of Dublin within their own county.

There's plenty that should be taken into account. Ideally kids should not have to move schools etc

The county stipulation makes no sense. I can live where I am and be five minutes from another county. I could drive two hours and still be in the same county.

There would need to be a more defined radius for people to choose from.
I definitely think the current system of being limited to your own locality is a bit silly.

NIMAN

yabadabado wrote: »

Obviously it's a totally different situation if a person has health/mental health issues.

But these people are wise to all the tricks.

What happens if you introduce exceptions for those with mental health issues? Everyone develops mental health issues.

Most know how to play the game.

yabadabado

Yeah within the same county is a stupid idea some massive counties .5 miles in Dublin is also way too narrow.
If you need social housing you shouldn't be calling the shots when housing is on offer,the regs need to be changed and updated so people aren't constantly turning down housing waiting for their dream area/home.

yabadabado

NIMAN wrote: »

But these people are wise to all the tricks.

What happens if you introduce exceptions for those with mental health issues? Everyone develops mental health issues.

Most know how to play the game.

There are dozens of medical assessors working for Social Welfare nationwide.Get them into the doctor and prove their status.Its done for numerous payments could be done for this.

pilly

handlemaster wrote:

Is it not time that offers of housing include the whole republic and not just done county by county . If someone is homeless surely the location of the property should not be an issue to turn down a home. People speak about been close to family and friends who dont house them as if that is reason enough to turn housing down. Another is schools same educational system in all counties should not be an issue to turn down a property.

This idea doesn't make sense because if you do that every waiting list in the country has 100k people on it, far too much administration.

Also not everyone on a housing list is unemployed believe it or not so are they supposed to jack in their jobs.

With a ridiculous system like you suggest you could have someone from Dublin shipped down to Tipperary and someone from Tipperary sent up to Dublin. Where's the sense in that?

Lumen

pilly wrote: »

This idea doesn't make sense because if you do that every waiting list in the country has 100k people on it, far too much administration.

Also not everyone on a housing list is unemployed believe it or not so are they supposed to jack in their jobs.

With a ridiculous system like you suggest you could have someone from Dublin shipped down to Tipperary and someone from Tipperary sent up to Dublin. Where's the sense in that?

One waiting list.

Sleeper12

NIMAN wrote: »

But these people are wise to all the tricks.

What happens if you introduce exceptions for those with mental health issues? Everyone develops mental health issues.

Most know how to play the game.

If you play by those rules things like this happen more often https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0831/901330-homeless-woman/

Because some will abuse the system can't mean we ignore mental issues

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If you play by those rules things like this happen more often https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0831/901330-homeless-woman/

Because some will abuse the system can't mean we ignore mental issues

That's a friend of mines sister ,

But I think your wrong using the mental health /autism as an excuse why people can't live out side of a particular area ,

All that is required is accessible schools and doctors surgeries and hospitals or clinics which all can be found in every county ,
A forever home is better for people suffering aniexty than worrying about becoming homeless because they can't afford rents ,

This is why no real meaning discussion or changes could happen here because people are quick to use every excuse in the book not to push through real needed changes

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

But I think your wrong using the mental health /autism as an excuse why people can't live out side of a particular area ,

80 percent of autistic people are on long term unemployment. Many more are on permanent disability. Many can't leave their own homes from anxiety.

Gatling wrote:

This is why no real meaning discussion or changes could happen here because people are quick to use every excuse in the book not to push through real needed changes

While it's nice to discuss these things this thread is sort of pointless. Even if we all agreed that no one can refuse an offer of a home it makes no difference. The real issue is still that we have a shortage of property. Private, social, affordable, rental etc. We can argue all we want about who's fault that is or if the problem was ignored for the last 5 years or not but the bottom line is a shortage. I genuinely feel for the homeless but I also feel for ordinary people renting. You want to see some of the cramped conditions. I changed carbon brushes in a shower in one property and they lasted 3 months. They should last years. Turns out there's 15 people sharing a 2 bedroom flat in an old Georgian building. These are paying rent. People wouldn't live like that if they had a choice. The real issue isn't turning down offers or even the ones scamming. The issue is the lack of property

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

80 percent of autistic people are on long term unemployment. Many more are on permanent disability. Many can't leave their own homes from anxiety.

Have you actual figures for the above .

But as you already said the main issue is massive stock shortages across the board and till that is sorted discussion isn't doing anyone any good

LirW

handlemaster wrote: »

Someone with registered mental health issues yes. Someone who has a kid no. Your kid your decision. . Cant rent privately then take the free home where ever that maybe

In fairness though, when you have a single mother (it can have a million reasons why she's now alone) of 2 with work in Dublin will put her in a predicament when she gets a house offered in the backsticks of Cavan.
It just takes a low paid job like being a hairdresser or a care assistant for example, if she doesn't have a car and struggling with money already she most likely will have to give her job up because she can't afford a commute and the childcare for it.

quadrifoglio verde

gizmo81 wrote: »

If you watch any of the UK documentaries on this topic two things spring to mind:

People are being separated from family and friends, leading to isolation. Someone independent living with mental illness moved 6 hours from their family removing all their support. Or a single mother with a toddler.

Class warfare in city spaces.

Hmm have a secure home in Leitrim or some cardboard and a doorway in Dublin
I know which one I'd choose and it ain't Dublin

Want to be housed in Dublin? Prove why it's necessary. Greater priority should be given to low waged workers working in Dublin than the single mother of three because she wants to be near her parents.

As for the person with mental illness being forced to live in isolation. What about the person in rural Ireland, with mental illness being forced to live in isolation? No one makes a big song and dance to bring them to the city's so they're near supports and no longer in isolation!
Why not?

handlemaster

LirW wrote: »

In fairness though, when you have a single mother (it can have a million reasons why she's now alone) of 2 with work in Dublin will put her in a predicament when she gets a house offered in the backsticks of Cavan.
It just takes a low paid job like being a hairdresser or a care assistant for example, if she doesn't have a car and struggling with money already she most likely will have to give her job up because she can't afford a commute and the childcare for it.

If your looking for the tax payer to pay for you , you shouldnt call the shots. Heres a free home do you want it ? No! go to the back of the list

handlemaster

pilly wrote: »

This idea doesn't make sense because if you do that every waiting list in the country has 100k people on it, far too much administration.

Also not everyone on a housing list is unemployed believe it or not so are they supposed to jack in their jobs.

With a ridiculous system like you suggest you could have someone from Dublin shipped down to Tipperary and someone from Tipperary sent up to Dublin. Where's the sense in that?

the people waiting will not change straight away. the numbers where they can go would be more flexible. the fact I want to live in free housing in Dalkey shouldnt stop me taking a house in cavan. we all have unaffordable dreams. When you live your life on state benefits you shouldn't be picky, this would encourage more to get out to improve their lot

hawkwind23

Ill offer a solution....
With all our taxes maybe we could build more social housing?

gizmo81

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Hmm have a secure home in Leitrim or some cardboard and a doorway in Dublin
I know which one I'd choose and it ain't Dublin

Want to be housed in Dublin? Prove why it's necessary. Greater priority should be given to low waged workers working in Dublin than the single mother of three because she wants to be near her parents.

As for the person with mental illness being forced to live in isolation. What about the person in rural Ireland, with mental illness being forced to live in isolation? No one makes a big song and dance to bring them to the city's so they're near supports and no longer in isolation!
Why not?

So the single mother of three who works 25 hours a week while kids are in school, you want her to give up her job, family, friends, the kids move school, leave family and friends and move over 2.5 hours away?

The person with mental illness in Ireland is being taken out of the area they know and away from their supports for gentrification!

But that's not what you're really advocating for, you want anyone not working moved out of Dublin.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Why should Joe Worker have to live in Mullingar or Portlaoise to spend half his life commuting to Dublin because he can't afford to rent or buy in the capital, while the career single Ma with 3 kids by 3 different men gets to pick an area she'd like to live in which happens to be some of the most prime real estate on the island? I've always thought that was ludicrous.

handlemaster

gizmo81 wrote: »

So the single mother of three who works 25 hours a week while kids are in school, you want her to give up her job, family, friends, the kids move school, leave family and friends and move over 2.5 hours away?

The person with mental illness in Ireland is being taken out of the area they know and away from their supports for gentrification!

But that's not what you're really advocating for, you want anyone not working moved out of Dublin.

Gentrification ... you mean investment in an area. If we shouldnt renovate because some would not afford to leave their after how is this bad ? the country would still have donkeys and carts and one room houses

pilly

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:

Why should Joe Worker have to live in Mullingar or Portlaoise to spend half his life commuting to Dublin because he can't afford to rent or buy in the capital, while the career single Ma with 3 kids by 3 different men gets to pick an area she'd like to live in which happens to be some of the most prime real estate on the island? I've always thought that was ludicrous.

Because Joe Worker won't go live in a council estate in Ballymun now would he?

Victor

handlemaster wrote: »

If someone is homeless surely the location of the property should not be an issue to turn down a home.

Not everyone who is homeless is unemployed.

Would you send someone working in Cork to live in Mayo? Note that the firs train from Mayo arrives in Cork at 12:35 and they'll have to be in the 15:20 train back. They will then spend 8 hours in Mayo and have to be up for the 07:15 train the next morning.

yabadabado wrote: »

people not willing to move 30 minute drive from the area they grow up is beyond a joke.

I'm guessing here, but people who are homeless probably have a much lower car ownership than the general population.

handlemaster

Victor wrote: »

Not everyone who is homeless is unemployed.

Would you send someone working in Cork to live in Mayo? Note that the firs train from Mayo arrives in Cork at 12:35 and they'll have to be in the 15:20 train back. They will then spend 8 hours in Mayo and have to be up for the 07:15 train the next morning.

if you cant afford a home. you take what your given. obviously you will have stories from everyone why they cant move. if the job doesnt pay enought then move. there are jobs in mayo to.

jamesthepeach

You put all the lists together right now in order of when people went on it.
You put all of the available houses in the country at the moment into a website and categorize them.
You give everyone on the housing list a priority number and a categoryike 3 bed, 2 bed etc.
You give them one week to browse the houses available their category and pick say 10 in order of preference and then you make offers , cao style.
Do this every month.
If you don't get the house of your choice you go again next month. You get a choice, but if you get too fussy you get nothing. It yourself to blame.

NIMAN

You have to be very careful not to be seen to be hitting those on lists hard, or being discriminatory towards them. The lefties will be up in arms.

It is of course perfectly fine to have rules for those struggling to commute every day, pay bills, mortgage, taxes etc.

Sleeper12

=Gatling;104549373]Have you actual figures for the above

This is most likely off topic & I'm posting it not to win an argument but just to show people how debilitating autism can be

The unemployment rate among people with autism spectrum disorders is currently around 80%, despite many of these people having excellent qualifications”, according to DCU President, Professor Brian MacCraith.

Full statement here: http://asiam.ie/dcu-announcement

But as you already said the main issue is massive stock shortages across the board and till that is sorted discussion isn't doing anyone any

Again even talking about people with autism or mental health issues is irreverent with current housing stocks as we can't house them.

We just have to wait on housing stock & hope the planners are granting permission for the right size homes thinking more into the future then for todays market

RobbingBandit

To Hell or to Connacht didn't really work out too well the first time round.

handlemaster

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/i-miss-out-on-family-events-and-wont-see-daylight-at-all-some-weeks-says-father-36089828.html
Why not give this guy a home beside his work place, if you think you shouldnt be moved from your friends or family. At least he is paying taxes

um7y1h83ge06nx

Why do people assume that some many of these homeless people have mental issues?

I don't see why it is so offensive to ask someone if they would move to a different area in order to get off the streets. On the other hand it seems perfectly acceptable for them to demand specific housing.

You would have to conclude they are really not all that badly off then and that the homeless issue is just exaggerated by media, some political parties and interest groups.

Sleeper12

Caylee Obnoxious Musket wrote: »

Why do people assume that some many of these homeless people have mental issues?

I don't see why it is so offensive to ask someone if they would move to a different area in order to get off the streets. On the other hand it seems perfectly acceptable for them to demand specific housing.

You would have to conclude they are really not all that badly off then and that the homeless issue is just exaggerated by media, some political parties and interest groups.

Because many homeless people have mental health issues.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Because many homeless people have mental health issues.

But where are the figures on that and is the occurrence of mental health issues among homeless higher than the general population?

And no I don't think having a drug addiction is a mental illness.

But for those that truly have mental health issues then the government could use involuntary admission as a means of getting them off the streets.

Sleeper12

Caylee Obnoxious Musket wrote:

But where are the figures on that and is the occurrence of mental health issues among homeless higher than the general population?

Vulnerable people tend to be homeless more so than non vulnerable people. The very fact that they don't have a couch to crash on speaks volumes.
Even people without mental health problems tend to develop them when they are in hostels for over a year

neonsofa

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Why should Joe Worker have to live in Mullingar or Portlaoise to spend half his life commuting to Dublin because he can't afford to rent or buy in the capital, while the career single Ma with 3 kids by 3 different men gets to pick an area she'd like to live in which happens to be some of the most prime real estate on the island? I've always thought that was ludicrous.

There are many single mothers that are "joe workers" too and are actually only able to do so because they have a really good support network where they live.

Wanderer78

Caylee Obnoxious Musket wrote:

But where are the figures on that and is the occurrence of mental health issues among homeless higher than the general population?

Statistics on mental health issues are almost as complex as the illness itself, since many sufferers take many years to get help, some unfortunately never actually getting help, the statistics become skewed. I do believe that mental health issues are more prevalent amongst the homeless compared to the general population, but again, there's probably very poor data to back this up. I also suspect that many homeless may suffer with other complex issues such as complex behavioural problems, personality disorders, complex learning disabilities etc etc, unfortunately there's probably poor data to support these claims, as many of these individuals problems would actually be undiagnosed, therefore no data actually exists.

Caylee Obnoxious Musket wrote:

And no I don't think having a drug addiction is a mental illness.

Drug addiction is actually caused by what the psychological world calls, 'cause and effect', I.e. the actual 'cause' of the addiction problem is the mental health issues, the 'effect' is the actual addiction itself. In order to treat the addiction problem, you must also treat the mental health issues, this is not easy, as I personally think, if you develop mental health issues, you effectively have them for life, but they must be managed forever more.

Caylee Obnoxious Musket wrote:

But for those that truly have mental health issues then the government could use involuntary admission as a means of getting them off the streets.

Easier said than done, money and resources are probably the key here, and from personal experience, mental health issues are not treated the same as physical injuries. Our mental health services probably require a much larger investment than what we currently invest in our physical health services, what's the chances of that?

Most of these opinions come from personal experiences, I've spent the majority of my life struggling with mental health issues, depression and anxiety disorder, recently diagnosed with a learning disability, dyslexia, and probably have undiagnosed autism. I've met many with these type of issues and some with much worse, some have gotten help, but unfortunately many, if not most have not for various different reasons. My saving graces have no doubt being my support networks, including family and friends, and of course medical and mental health professionals, sadly some simply don't have them, and some simply fall through the nets and end up homeless or worse. I know people that have gone there, those that survive generally end up with very deep scars for life, never really truly fitting into society, and nearly always live life struggling. My advice, talk to them, listen to their stories, they generally have very important things to say for the benefit of all.

endacl

ash23 wrote: »

I could drive two hours and still be in the same county.

Off topic, but how slowly do you drive?!? I could leave Dublin now and be in Limerick in slightly over two hours.

Browney7

endacl wrote: »

Off topic, but how slowly do you drive?!? I could leave Dublin now and be in Limerick in slightly over two hours.

West cork to north cork would be that. Think the point was, administering on a county basis doesn't make sense for certain things

jimmycrackcorm

A woman I know on rent allowance turned down three offers of social housing because she didn't want to be associated with living in a council estate instead of getting the RAS.

Eventually she was told she was losing her RAS if she didn't accept the last offer. So she moved down the country to rent somewhere cheaper in the countryside where she wouldn't have to live amongst people she considered beneath her.

The astonishingly high rate of first refusals for social housing indicates there's more going on than refusal due to mental health support issues.

Gatling

jamesthepeach wrote: »

You put all the lists together right now in order of when people went on it.
You put all of the available houses in the country at the moment into a website and categorize them.
You give everyone on the housing list a priority number and a categoryike 3 bed, 2 bed etc.
You give them one week to browse the houses available their category and pick say 10 in order of preference and then you make offers , cao style.

They already do this on a weekly basis already with the choice based lettings system ,
We log on to a secure website that opens on Fridays with listings of available 2,3,4 bed properties you show interest in and put them in a shopping basket ,and on Tuesday they close the site and start the process of making offers to people

jamesthepeach

Gatling wrote: »

They already do this on a weekly basis already with the choice based lettings system ,
We log on to a secure website that opens on Fridays with listings of available 2,3,4 bed properties you show interest in and put them in a shopping basket ,and on Tuesday they close the site and start the process of making offers to people

You would think that all of the boarded up houses would get used quickly then.

So if you end up not choosing anything then you just stay on the list?

Are the choices countrywide or confined to areas close to where you are living at the minute?

Is there a limit to how long you are allowed to keep getting choices?

Neyite

handlemaster wrote: »

if you cant afford a home. you take what your given. obviously you will have stories from everyone why they cant move. if the job doesnt pay enought then move. there are jobs in mayo to.

Rural areas are already impacted by high unemployment so transplanting more folk to those areas is just solving one problem and creating another.

Cyrus

handlemaster wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/i-miss-out-on-family-events-and-wont-see-daylight-at-all-some-weeks-says-father-36089828.html
Why not give this guy a home beside his work place, if you think you shouldnt be moved from your friends or family. At least he is paying taxes

not related to the thread really but how in gods name is this a story

man commutes to work and gets home by 5.45,

thats the life of most people with familys living in dublin suburbs FFS

pilly

jamesthepeach wrote: »

You would think that all of the boarded up houses would get used quickly then.

So if you end up not choosing anything then you just stay on the list?

Are the choices countrywide or confined to areas close to where you are living at the minute?

Is there a limit to how long you are allowed to keep getting choices?

The reason for boarded up houses is not because people don't choose them. The council have to have a house in a suitable state of repair before they offer them to anyone, which can take them anything up to a year. Even with houses left in very good condition by the previous owners they rip out wooden floors, tiles, kitchens etc. and put them back in the original "council" condition. Madness.

pilly

Gatling wrote: »

That's a friend of mines sister ,

But I think your wrong using the mental health /autism as an excuse why people can't live out side of a particular area ,

All that is required is accessible schools and doctors surgeries and hospitals or clinics which all can be found in every county ,
A forever home is better for people suffering aniexty than worrying about becoming homeless because they can't afford rents ,

This is why no real meaning discussion or changes could happen here because people are quick to use every excuse in the book not to push through real needed changes

You're wrong in saying that there are accessible school, doctors surgeries and hospitals or clinics in every county. Completely wrong.

Tipperary were I live for example has no psychiatric beds, patients are sent to Kilkenny.

My local GP looks after 2 towns so getting an appointment takes 2 weeks. Local hospitals and clinics for normal everyday things are in the next biggest town which can be 50kms away.

I'm well able to manage these things because I drive and I'm not what would be considered a vunerable person but I tell you one thing, I won't be living down here in my retirement because it would kill me.

riclad

I think if you are offered a house and turn it down you,ll be moved from the top of the list ,or lose a few points.
People have x no of points depending of health status, how long you are on the list,no of kids,etc
the last time i saw the form you can pick out 4 area,s egb city centre, swords,finglas etc
The main problem we have is lack of of supply ,there are not 1000,s of empty council houses in rural area,s waiting to be accupied .
Drive around any council estate or apartment block,
at least 3 per cent of units are boarded up.
i know 2 one bedroom flats empty for 2 years .
in dublin 2 .
The council renovates a flat when someone moves out.
i think they replace kitchen units etc
The government needs to set a target ,we will build say 10 000 units per year for low cost or social housing.
one example ,theres an article in the sunday times this week,
Theres a scheme for builders to get a grant to build affordable housing,
They can get it even if the houses are selling for 400k.
if joe bloggs turns down a house the next person on the list is offered it.
The media seems to love writing about people turning down council houses .
If someone lives in dublin and has 2 kids is it reasonable to expect her to move to kerry to get a council house.?
And leave all her friends and family in dublin.
I find it annoying to read articles about housing ,
saying young people cannot afford to buy a house ,eg every house is 200k etc theres still houses going for 70 k in rural area,s.

ThisRegard

People who are actually living on the streets or hostels on a nightly basis seem to get lumped in with those unable to buy or rent their own homes but still have a roof over their heads. Should we get stricter with the definition of homelessness? It's similar to how some groups define poverty, they use relative poverty as their definition.