Hyundai Ioniq hybrid

alangeorge

Thinking of buying a year old one of these in the UK.
VRT i hear is free on them and they look ok too.

KCross

VRT won't be free on the hybrid, only the electric.

ELM327

Why would you get a hybrid, when the Ioniq BEV is arguably the best EV on the market at the moment.
And it's cheaper than both the PHEV and HEV Ioniqs.

Casati

ELM327 wrote: »

Why would you get a hybrid, when the Ioniq BEV is arguably the best EV on the market at the moment.
And it's cheaper than both the PHEV and HEV Ioniqs.

I'd guess that he's not wanting to buy an electric??

alangeorge

interested now in electric

unkel

Tell us a bit about your driving, alangeorge. How far is your commute, how often do you do longer trips, and what are those trips?

Then we might help you better in assessing if the EV is suitable for you. There are almost 20 Ioniq EV owners here on boards that have posted in the Ioniq EV thread. Have a look at that thread too, if you have a spare week or two

ELM327

Casati wrote: »

I'd guess that he's not wanting to buy an electric??

Well then buy a proper ICE if he's not suited to Electric.
None of this halfway sitting on the fence tech.

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

Well then buy a proper ICE if he's not suited to Electric.
None of this halfway sitting on the fence tech.

Hold on their a second. If a hybrid helps a person buy a petrol rather then a Diesel, then that is very welcome.

Remember, petrol causes far less NOX/PM emissions then Diesel and thus is preferable for all our health.

I agree that if a person can buy a full EV, they should. But if their circumstances don't allow for it, then a petrol hybrid is the next best thing.

Casati

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a second. If a hybrid helps a person buy a petrol rather then a Diesel, then that is very welcome.

Remember, petrol causes far less NOX/PM emissions then Diesel and thus is preferable for all our health.

I agree that if a person can buy a full EV, they should. But if their circumstances don't allow for it, then a petrol hybrid is the next best thing.

Plug hybrid would be better again?

bk

Casati wrote: »

Plug hybrid would be better again?

Yes, from the NOX/PM health perspective anyway.

Say your plugin hybrid gives you 40 to 50km of battery range. Well then most people could do their daily commute on that (I think the average is 40km per day), which means most of their driving around cities, sitting outside a school, etc. is done on battery and that is great as in cities is where PM/Nox pose the greatest danger to people.

When driving on a motorway, where the petrol engine is likely to kick in, PM/NOX is less of an issue.

Of course I'm only talking from the health perspective here. You have to work out for yourself if the extra cost makes sense or if a pure EV might be suited to you.

ELM327

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a second. If a hybrid helps a person buy a petrol rather then a Diesel, then that is very welcome.

Remember, petrol causes far less NOX/PM emissions then Diesel and thus is preferable for all our health.

I agree that if a person can buy a full EV, they should. But if their circumstances don't allow for it, then a petrol hybrid is the next best thing.

Hybrid is a late 90's half assed attempt at an EV IMO
A lot of them do less mpg then a diesel so they do not make sense for anyone - as the increased cost is never paid back.
People need to have confidence in their convictions and go straight to the EV, no need for a stepping stone.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Well then buy a proper ICE if he's not suited to Electric.
None of this halfway sitting on the fence tech.

+1

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a second. If a hybrid helps a person buy a petrol rather then a Diesel, then that is very welcome.

Remember, petrol causes far less NOX/PM emissions then Diesel and thus is preferable for all our health.

I agree that if a person can buy a full EV, they should. But if their circumstances don't allow for it, then a petrol hybrid is the next best thing.

no simply buy a petrol

hybrids are expensive and a stop gap.

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

A lot of them do less mpg then a diesel so they do not make sense for anyone - as the increased cost is never paid back.

The trouble is, the majority of people aren't making a logical or rational decision anyway.

Diesel represents 70% of car sales in Ireland. Yet the average driver only drives 40km per day. Most people don't need Diesels in ireland. In fact most people should probably just buy a pure petrol (non-hybrid) rather then paying extra for a Diesel engine, if you are talking purely about increased costs.

If hybrids make people more comfortable with going for a petrol, then so be it. Better for us all.

ELM327 wrote: »

People need to have confidence in their convictions and go straight to the EV, no need for a stepping stone.

But EV's aren't there yet for all driving patterns. Lots of people they aren't suited for yet. Nothing about convictions, just what people need.

Also I need to point out, that there simply isn't enough batteries being manufactured to allow 100% of people to buy EV's. EV's are largely constrained at the moment by battery manufacturing.

There is actually a logical argument, that until battery manufacturing reaches sufficient levels, that we would actually be better to spend our limited battery capacity on hybrids then pure EV's.

Think about it, what saves more emissions:

1) A pure EV with a 50kwh battery that just does 40km per day.

2) The same 50kwh worth of batteries spread across a dozen hybrids doing 40km a day.

Like it or not, the Prius has done more to reduce overall emissions then any relatively low selling EV has yet done.

Of course I agree that EV's are the future and these current limitations will go away over the next few years. But in the here and now, hybrids aren't a bad option at all.

BoatMad

PHEVS in Ireland look falsely attractive cause of the free public charging as many PHEVS do not install home charging

Once pricing comes in for public charging , expected in 2018, the economies of PHEVs will change dramatically , and will only work if its practical to charge at home

they simply dont have the range of BEVS

and on a TCO basis , PHEVS make absolutely no sense

The solution to diesel of equivalent need , is petrol not hybrids, the future solution is then a transition to a suitable BEV, all the incentives for diesel will be removed in the next 2-3 years.

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

hybrids are expensive and a stop gap.

Of course, that is an option too. Though not the best from a pure environmental/health perspective. Remember, not everyone is thinking about this in purely financial terms.

Though it does depend on your yearly milage and type of driving. For instance Prius and similar hybrids are widely popular with Taxi drivers. High milage and lots of start/stop city driving makes them ideal candidates for a hybrid.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Of course, that is an option too. Though not the best from a pure environmental/health perspective. Remember, not everyone is thinking about this in purely financial terms.

Though it does depend on your yearly milage and type of driving. For instance Prius and similar hybrids are widely popular with Taxi drivers. High milage and lots of start/stop city driving makes them ideal candidates for a hybrid.

taxis are almost always in petrol mode in a Prius

Taxis are also just interested in economy per mile , its while a few have experimented with the Leaf

The petrol engine in the prius has proven very reliable

again Taxis are not a good example of the argument you are making

Very few people buy a car on environmental grounds

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

The solution to diesel of equivalent need , is petrol not hybrids, the future solution is then a transition to a suitable BEV, all the incentives for diesel will be removed in the next 2-3 years.

Well changes to the taxation of Diesel (fuel or road tax) could make hybrids well suited to even very high milage users, that currently benefit from Diesel.

In the US hybrids are very popular because Diesel doesn't get the same advantageous taxation as it does here, so the better MPG of hybrids can more then pay for itself. We may see the same happen here.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Well changes to the taxation of Diesel (fuel or road tax) could make hybrids well suited to even very high milage users, that currently benefit from Diesel.

In the US hybrids are very popular because Diesel doesn't get the same advantageous taxation as it does here, so the better MPG of hybrids can more then pay for itself. We may see the same happen here.

Hybrids and mileage is akin to snake oil. many hybrids are merely NEDC rule cheaters, because the urban cycle of the NEDC is a short range , slow speed test and allows hybrids to claim fuel consumption ( and C02 figures ) that in reality are almost impossible to replicate in real life

Hence for high mileage users, hybrid = petrol for all intents and purposes

They really make little financial sense, for urban drivers, a small petrol is by far a better TCO decision

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

taxis are almost always in petrol mode in a Prius

They use battery as they take off and stop in traffic, lights. Overall a hybrid taxi produces significantly less PM/Nox then a Diesel and that is to be very much welcomed by those of us who live in our cities.

I mean I don't think people understand just how bad Diesels are in this regard. A brand new VW Golf produces more then twice the amount of PM/NOX as a Dublin Bus sitting next to it!

Diesel cars are really, really poor.

On the economic argument, you are of course currently correct. However as I'm sure you will be aware, the government is likely to significantly increase taxation on Diesels. This can completely flip the financial argument in favour of hybrids for even high mileage users, like in the US.

Really Diesel cars should be completely banned IMO and these should be the options:

- Pure petrol for low mileage users.
- Hybrids for high milage users.
- EV's for everyone for whom it makes sense.

BoatMad

High mileage users , are almost by definition ( in private motoring) interurban drivers, so in the absence of favourable taxation , modern ecumenical petrol is the best bet. The TCO on hybrids doesnt really make sense as the extra price cant be recovered compared to simple petrol

The UK for example is scaling back incentives for hybrids and Irelands plans something similar

ELM327

bk wrote: »

Really Diesel cars should be completely banned IMO and these should be the options:

- Pure petrol for low mileage users.
- Hybrids for high milage users.
- EV's for everyone for whom it makes sense.

That's ridiculous.
Before my EV foray, I was doing 58-62 mpg in various diesel repmobiles.
I got a loan of a 2006 prius (rated at over 60, and some claimed over 70 mpg) but on my commute it struggled to hit 50mpg which is frankly pathetic for an econo car. Add to that the 1.2 price multiple of petrol versus derv and hybrids are a joke for high miles. They can do better in stop start city traffic, but in the city you should have a BEV anyway.

Hybrid - Old hat tech, outdated for 15+ years
Diesel - High mile users (talking 50k plus a year, like me, here)
Small Petrol - suburban / second car
BEV - everyone else

IMO

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

High mileage users , are almost by definition ( in private motoring) interurban drivers, so in the absence of favourable taxation , modern ecumenical petrol is the best bet. The TCO on hybrids doesnt really make sense as the extra price cant be recovered compared to simple petrol

The UK for example is scaling back incentives for hybrids and Irelands plans something similar

Agree re hybrids, but I can't find one comparable petrol that has a lower cent per mile cost than a comparable diesel.

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

I got a loan of a 2006 prius (rated at over 60, and some claimed over 70 mpg) but on my commute it struggled to hit 50mpg which is frankly pathetic for an econo car. Add to that the 1.2 price multiple of petrol versus derv and hybrids are a joke for high miles. They can do better in stop start city traffic, but in the city you should have a BEV anyway.

All completely based on how Diesel versus petrol is currently taxed. If that taxation changes (likely), then the economics can too.

Their is a reason why hybrids are so popular in the US, there petrol is cheaper then Diesel. So much so that the higher MPG of a Diesel over a hybrid is lost at the pump.

BTW I'm agreeing with much of what yourself and BoatMad are saying! I just think you guys are being too definitive about it and not taking into account up coming changes to taxation.

If you were buying a new car in the morning and for whatever reason you won't go EV, then currently the best options are:

- Mostly low mileage city driving - pure petrol
- High milage city driving (taxi driver) - hybrid petrol
- High milage motorway driving - Diesel

Though I'd be very cautious of the last category. Changes in taxation of Diesel over the next few years could radically change the economics of Diesel, which might also effect the value of your car.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

High mileage users , are almost by definition ( in private motoring) interurban drivers, so in the absence of favourable taxation , modern ecumenical petrol is the best bet.

Ah, the joys of auto correct! This is really turning out to be a religious forum!

An episode of Father Ted springs to mind.... "that would be an ecumenical matter"!

I must use that response here the next time I see some BS being posted!

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree re hybrids, but I can't find one comparable petrol that has a lower cent per mile cost than a comparable diesel.

You really need to look at it in a TCO. You also have to take into account the extra cost of the Diesel engine versus a petrol one (same as you do with adding hybrid), plus the likely higher maintenance costs of Diesel down the road.

ELM327

bk wrote: »

All completely based on how Diesel versus petrol is currently taxed. If that taxation changes (likely), then the economics can too.

Their is a reason why hybrids are so popular in the US, there petrol is cheaper then Diesel. So much so that the higher MPG of a Diesel over a hybrid is lost at the pump.

BTW I'm agreeing with much of what yourself and BoatMad are saying! I just think you guys are being too definitive about it and not taking into account up coming changes to taxation.

If you were buying a new car in the morning and for whatever reason you won't go EV, then currently the best options are:

- Mostly low mileage city driving - pure petrol
- High milage city driving (taxi driver) - hybrid petrol
- High milage motorway driving - Diesel

Though I'd be very cautious of the last category. Changes in taxation of Diesel over the next few years could radically change the economics of Diesel, which might also effect the value of your car.

In the US diesel is quite a lot more expensive than gasoline generally
Again this is due to taxation, the net cost at the refinery is roughly equal for petrol or diesel.

It's the inherent "technology" (I use that word loosely with ICE/fossil) that differs. A hybrid prius at 110 km/h on the motorway for 100km is using its fossil engine pretty much 100% of the time and no electric mode. At that speed it's just a 1.5/1.8 petrol, carting around a heavy hybrid battery system which is for all intents and purposes a dead weight.
A diesel, especially a relatively modern one is cruising in 6th gear at below 2000 rpm and travelling much further for each litre of fuel.

bk wrote: »

You really need to look at it in a TCO. You also have to take into account the extra cost of the Diesel engine versus a petrol one (same as you do with adding hybrid), plus the likely higher maintenance costs of Diesel down the road.

TCO... on a sub 2k car is not really relevant, which are the only ICE I would buy. No point paying for depreciation when there are no savings to be made like in a BEV.

zilog_jones

BoatMad wrote: »

taxis are almost always in petrol mode in a Prius

Please stop making such baseless statements - you clearly have little to no experience with hybrid vehicles.

A 3rd gen Prius (like most the taxis) will only have the ICE running 40-50% of the time in typical city driving. Add to that the significant dwell time of taxis - even in the winter when heat is required, the Prius will only start the ICE every few minutes for short periods.

ELM327 wrote: »

Before my EV foray, I was doing 58-62 mpg in various diesel repmobiles.
I got a loan of a 2006 prius (rated at over 60, and some claimed over 70 mpg) but on my commute it struggled to hit 50mpg which is frankly pathetic for an econo car.

The 2nd gen Prius you drove is 14 year old technology - "old hat" as you say. It was well known that is wasn't great at fuel motorway speeds.

The current 4th gen Prius can easily beat any diesel in its class in fuel economy - 64 MPG average is achievable in the real world. Modern diesels seem to be nothing but trouble in terms of reliability (DPFs, DMFs, EGR valves, etc.) - not to mention all the cheating and dishonesty with emissions.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

The 2nd gen Prius you drove is 14 year old technology - "old hat" as you say. It was well known that is wasn't great at fuel motorway speeds.

The current 4th gen Prius can easily beat any diesel in its class in fuel economy - 64 MPG average is achievable in the real world. Modern diesels seem to be nothing but trouble in terms of reliability (DPFs, DMFs, EGR valves, etc.) - not to mention all the cheating and dishonesty with emissions.

I can achieve that from a 2003 VW golf diesel. 6 speed 'box cruising at 110.
That's also 14 year old tech, and I dont need to spend the guts of 35k+ to do so.

zilog_jones

That's not really like-for-like - cruising at 110 km/h is just one mode of driving and not comparable to overall averages.

'03 Golf diesel manual (assuming <120 bhp): https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/50-Volkswagen/452-Golf.html?fueltype=1&constyear_s=2003&constyear_e=2003&power_e=120&gearing=1&powerunit=2 - 5.58 l/100km or 51 MPG

And a new Prius is under €32k, which isn't far off the price of a new Passat of similar spec (which is a fairer comparison in terms of market segment). No new car is going to compare to something 14 years old in terms of TCO either way, so it's all a bit academic.

It's the inherent "technology" (I use that word loosely with ICE/fossil) that differs. A hybrid prius at 110 km/h on the motorway for 100km is using its fossil engine pretty much 100% of the time and no electric mode. At that speed it's just a 1.5/1.8 petrol, carting around a heavy hybrid battery system which is for all intents and purposes a dead weight.

The ICE may be running all the time at those speeds, but the motor generators are always doing something as they are an inherent part of the transmission. There are various load states where it will be charging the batteries as it is efficient to do so, and also using electric power for assistance when required - the Atkinson cycle ICE is pretty gutless on its own, so extra power from MG1 is always available when needed (e.g. climbing or overtaking).

A typical modern diesel ICE with manual gearbox is heavier than a Prius powertrain with battery - the battery itself is only about 40kg.

I can't say how the Ioniq Hybrid works in comparison as there's little information out there, but it does also have an Atkinson cycle ICE with similar thermal efficiency as the Prius.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

That's not really like-for-like - cruising at 110 km/h is just one mode of driving and not comparable to overall averages.

'03 Golf diesel manual (assuming <120 bhp): https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/50-Volkswagen/452-Golf.html?fueltype=1&constyear_s=2003&constyear_e=2003&power_e=120&gearing=1&powerunit=2 - 5.58 l/100km or 51 MPG

I had a 130 bhp 6 speed golf.
60 km commute of which 52 approx is motoway at 110km/h

I get better mpg from it than a prius.

Even accepting the dubious 51mpg (which I would get if I drove everywhere at 200km/h probably lol) at what point would I save the 30k difference in price!

zilog_jones

I already said there's no point in comparing TCO of a 2003 car to something new.

Spritmonitor is based on records of actual owners (not trip computer nonsense either), many who have been using it for years and clocked up massive mileages. The averages for 130 bhp '03 Golfs are even worse (6.04 l/100km) - but granted most users are in Autobahn country.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

I already said there's no point in comparing TCO of a 2003 car to something new.

Spritmonitor is based on records of actual owners (not trip computer nonsense either), many who have been using it for years and clocked up massive mileages. The averages for 130 bhp '03 Golfs are even worse (6.04 l/100km) - but granted most users are in Autobahn country.

OK then comparing it to a similar year Prius the TCO is irrelevant as they both cost less than 2k. But the golf on a gallon per gallon basis is a consistent 7-10 mpg better on the same road at the same speed, i found. My daily commute is 120km per day, 5 days per week, and another 300km odd (again mostly motorway/N road) at the weekend.
At that amount of driving, on a not astronomical salary, every single mile per gallon counts. And I found the prius not up to task. It would cost me more in petrol in a month, than the gap in tax between the 350 odd for a 1.5 engine and the 710 for a 1.9

People always bang on about hybrids, and to be honest, I don't see the point. It's been done. The day of the hybrid is been and gone, as is the high emission petrol car (outside of the US market) and also the lazy big engine diesel car.

The future now, is going to be defined by one thing, which is the Euro 7/8 etc standards. Once it's too costly to make an ICE to pass the standards, ICE manufacturers will switch to BEV and BEVx en masse.

oppenheimer1

bk wrote: »

The trouble is, the majority of people aren't making a logical or rational decision anyway.

Diesel represents 70% of car sales in Ireland. Yet the average driver only drives 40km per day. Most people don't need Diesels in ireland. In fact most people should probably just buy a pure petrol (non-hybrid) rather then paying extra for a Diesel engine, if you are talking purely about increased costs.

If hybrids make people more comfortable with going for a petrol, then so be it. Better for us all.



But EV's aren't there yet for all driving patterns. Lots of people they aren't suited for yet. Nothing about convictions, just what people need.

Also I need to point out, that there simply isn't enough batteries being manufactured to allow 100% of people to buy EV's. EV's are largely constrained at the moment by battery manufacturing.

There is actually a logical argument, that until battery manufacturing reaches sufficient levels, that we would actually be better to spend our limited battery capacity on hybrids then pure EV's.

Think about it, what saves more emissions:

1) A pure EV with a 50kwh battery that just does 40km per day.

2) The same 50kwh worth of batteries spread across a dozen hybrids doing 40km a day.

Like it or not, the Prius has done more to reduce overall emissions then any relatively low selling EV has yet done.

Of course I agree that EV's are the future and these current limitations will go away over the next few years. But in the here and now, hybrids aren't a bad option at all.

People don't buy a case for their average driving needs, they buy a car that can suit all of their needs.

In an ideal world people might have two/three cars, each optimised for a different task but they don't. They get one that can do it all.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

People don't buy a case for their average driving needs, they buy a car that can suit all of their needs.

In an ideal world people might have two/three cars, each optimised for a different task but they don't. They get one that can do it all.

I would tend to agree, with one addendum

People don't buy a case for their average driving needs, or their actual driving needs, they buy a car that can suit all of their needs, real and imagined.

zilog_jones

ELM327 wrote: »

OK then comparing it to a similar year Prius the TCO is irrelevant as they both cost less than 2k. But the golf on a gallon per gallon basis is a consistent 7-10 mpg better on the same road at the same speed, i found. My daily commute is 120km per day, 5 days per week, and another 300km odd (again mostly motorway/N road) at the weekend.
At that amount of driving, on a not astronomical salary, every single mile per gallon counts. And I found the prius not up to task. It would cost me more in petrol in a month, than the gap in tax between the 350 odd for a 1.5 engine and the 710 for a 1.9

The point I'm trying to make is that hybrids have got progressively more efficient, and a modern hybrid can match or surpass an equivalent diesel in terms of fuel economy. The OP is talking about buying a car that's one year old - all this information about the antiquated 2nd gen Prius (production ended 8 years ago) is misleading.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that hybrids have got progressively more efficient, and a modern hybrid can match or surpass an equivalent diesel in terms of fuel economy. The OP is talking about buying a car that's one year old - all this information about the antiquated 2nd gen Prius (production ended 8 years ago) is misleading.

What current hybrid can get better (including TCO) cents per mile figures than an equivalent diesel? Genuine question as I haven't calculated.
I'm guessing none.

unkel

I'm no great fan of hybrids / PHEV, but if they take away from the sales of diesels, I'm all for them

I was in NYC recently and despite the crazy traffic congestion, you do not get the overwhelming presence of (diesel) exhausts fumes that you get in Dublin, a city that is only a fraction of the size of NYC. Why is that? Because there are very few diesel vehicles and nearly all new-ish petrol vehicles are hybrids.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I'm no great fan of hybrids / PHEV, but if they take away from the sales of diesels, I'm all for them

I was in NYC recently and despite the crazy traffic congestion, you do not get the overwhelming presence of (diesel) exhausts fumes that you get in Dublin, a city that is only a fraction of the size of NYC. Why is that? Because there are very few diesel vehicles and nearly all new-ish petrol vehicles are hybrids.

NYC is a largely irrelevant comparison, as their petrol is less expensive than diesel so the fact that it is all city traffic, stop start, with cheaper petrol than diesel weighs the TCO argument to hybrid. But in that case, surely a BEV would be better anyway!!

That's the reason I despise hybrids. They are a stopgap, a nothing technology. They don't even help the BEV development race as all they do is waste batteries that could have gone to a real BEV.

PS no one has answered with a hybrid that is even capable of equally a comparable diesel. I wonder why.

Casati

ELM327 wrote: »

NYC is a largely irrelevant comparison, as their petrol is less expensive than diesel so the fact that it is all city traffic, stop start, with cheaper petrol than diesel weighs the TCO argument to hybrid. But in that case, surely a BEV would be better anyway!!

That's the reason I despise hybrids. They are a stopgap, a nothing technology. They don't even help the BEV development race as all they do is waste batteries that could have gone to a real BEV.

PS no one has answered with a hybrid that is even capable of equally a comparable diesel. I wonder why.

Merc E300 Hybrid offers same performance and better economy than the E220 - but it's a diesel hybrid!

ELM327

Casati wrote: »

Merc E300 Hybrid offers same performance and better economy than the E220 - but it's a diesel hybrid!

In the NEDC or on actual tests? Like EPA

Casati

ELM327 wrote: »

In the NEDC or on actual tests? Like EPA

Sorry you'll have to search for test results like those if you need them

ELM327

Casati wrote: »

Merc E300 Hybrid offers same performance and better economy than the E220 - but it's a diesel hybrid!

Casati wrote: »

Sorry you'll have to search for test results like those if you need them

Then don't make claims if you are not prepared to present any factual evidence.
To insert a common law principle, Affirmati Non Neganti Incumbit Probatio, or "he who asserts must prove".

zilog_jones

The E220 CDI and E300 BlueTEC Hybrid have the same 2.2 diesel engine, so I'm not sure what's so surprising about that. The numbers that Mercedes and BMW put in their model numbers are just whatever they feel they should be, and don't necessarily reflect the engine size. Diesel hybrids seem pretty pointless - you still have all the downsides of diesel (something we need to get away from).

ELM327 wrote: »

That's the reason I despise hybrids. They are a stopgap, a nothing technology.

Yes, they're a stop-gap technology. Once there are affordable BEVs with 300km+ range in all popular segments then there'd be less of a need for them, but we're not there yet.

They don't even help the BEV development race as all they do is waste batteries that could have gone to a real BEV.

That's a rather silly statement. A BEV with a <2 kWh battery wouldn't be very useful. I'm sure the likes of Honda and Toyota have contributed greatly to the development and application of traction batteries in passenger cars. Toyota were already producing BEVs in the late '90s/early '00s and may have continued if it weren't for Chevron taking control over patents for large Ni-MH batteries - that is why they focused on hybrids and FCVs (Li-ion wasn't good enough at the time).

PS no one has answered with a hybrid that is even capable of equally a comparable diesel. I wonder why.

OK: The cheapest diesel automatic Passat is about a grand more than a new Prius. Granted it's a slightly larger car. Compared to the Prius, it's less powerful, and motor tax is slightly higher (sure it's €20 more but that seems to mean a lot to some people).

Average on Spritmonitor for a B8 Passat 1.6 120 PS diesel: 5.86 l/100km (including manual because the difference is insignificant)
For a ZVW50 Prius: 4.41 l/100km

Of course those are averages, but still more useful than the NEDC nonsense (that form of Passat doesn't exist in the US, so no EPA figures - Fuelly was also useless because of this).

Even with the higher cost of petrol, you are still likely to spend less on fuel with the Prius. And it's possible that tax on diesel will increase soon.

Maintenance costs for the Prius will definitely be lower - there are no belts, brake pads easily last over 160k km, so it's pretty much just oil and filters every year (about €150 at a dealer, or easy DIY job), and tyres whenever. An EGR valve replacement in a modern VW diesel can set you back over a grand, and failures are not unknown (not to mention DPFs and all the other guff in modern diesels).

Even if you ignore cost, there are many advantages to hybrids - in terms of refinement and comfort, and not to mention emissions. I'm never going back to a dirty noisy rattly diesel, especially not with a manual gearbox - it's like going back to the stone ages.

ELM327

A passat is not a comparable sized car to a Prius.
Sorry.


And a user inputted site is not a reliable source of information. I checked and there is nothing to stop me reporting 100mpg in my (non existent) prius

zilog_jones

There are enough people contributing to Spritmonitor to negate noise from bad data. And people with obviously wrong data can be reported.

The Prius and Passat are both D-segment cars, like it or not. You can't compare the Prius to the Golf, as the Auris Hybrid competes directly with that - if you want to compare those two then do the research yourself. TBH you're being pretty rude expecting strangers on the internet to provide all this (readily available) information for free, and putting in zero effort yourself (outside of anecdotal experience with two >10 year old cars).

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

There are enough people contributing to Spritmonitor to negate noise from bad data. And people with obviously wrong data can be reported.

The Prius and Passat are both D-segment cars, like it or not. You can't compare the Prius to the Golf, as the Auris Hybrid competes directly with that - if you want to compare those two then do the research yourself. TBH you're being pretty rude expecting strangers on the internet to provide all this (readily available) information for free, and putting in zero effort yourself (outside of anecdotal experience with two >10 year old cars).

Well you are the one asserting the - quite ridiculous IMO - assertion that a hybrid is capable of better MPG/TCO than a comparable diesel.
To suggest that a Passat is a comparable size segment as a prius is quite frankly derisory and laughable in equal measures.

If we are reaching the point where no evidence exists to back up the assertion that you made without any supporting evidence I am happy to leave the discussion there.

Carpe Diem.

zilog_jones

I don't see what's so ridiculous about current petrol hybrids being able to match diesels in fuel economy. I provided (statistically reliable) evidence, which you chose to reject. Toyota's hybrids aren't outselling their diesels because they are inferior products.

Sure, the Prius is externally smaller, but internally? What exactly is so amusing about this? It's closer to the Passat in size than the Golf, it doesn't need the huge bonnet the Passat does, and size alone is not the only deciding factor in categorising cars.