Renovation of a derelict building - Proof of dwelling required

Allen2020

Hi all,
I plan on buying a plot of land with a derelict building on it. From what I can see it was once a 2 story house, currently there are doors and window openings downstairs and windows with old window frames upstairs, there is no chimney though. Later in its life journey the downstairs was converted into a stable and the upstairs was left to fall apart.
The building is in an area classed as "Rural Area under String Urban Influence", as I am not from the area I will find it difficult/impossible to get planning.
However if I can prove that the building was lived in, i.e comply with: "The structure must have previously been in use as a dwelling" then I can renovate it without an issue.
Does anyone have experience with such a scenario and if so any insight or guidance would be highly appreciated.
Regards,
AK

Allen2020

Hi all,
I plan on buying a plot of land with a derelict building on it. From what I can see it was once a 2 story house, currently there are doors and window openings downstairs and windows with old window frames upstairs, there is no chimney though. Later in its life journey the downstairs was converted into a stable and the upstairs was left to fall apart.
The building is in an area classed as "Rural Area under Strong Urban Influence" but I am not from the area so planning will be difficult or maybe impossible.
Assuming I cannot prove that the building was a previous dwelling is there any hope of getting planning permission for the renovation? The building structure and roof look very in tact at present but if its left for a few more years the roof will collapse and it will be an eye sore....
If anyone has any past experience with a similar scenario and can share any useful info it would be highly appreciated.
Regards,
AK

DOCARCH

Mod Note: Your two threads are very similar, so I have merged the two. Consider editing one or other of your posts above to combine your queries into one post (and one thread).

BryanF

Allen2020 wrote: »

Hi all,
I plan on buying a plot of land with a derelict building on it.

Only purchase 'on condition of grant of planning'

From what I can see it was once a 2 story house, currently there are doors and window openings downstairs and windows with old window frames upstairs, there is no chimney though. Later in its life journey the downstairs was converted into a stable and the upstairs was left to fall apart.

this a derelict building, you need planning permission

The building is in an area classed as "Rural Area under String Urban Influence", as I am not from the area I will find it difficult/impossible to get planning.

yes that been my experience

However if I can prove that the building was lived in, i.e comply with: "The structure must have previously been in use as a dwelling" then I can renovate it without an issue.

who told you this?
Can you point to legislation on this?

Does anyone have experience with such a scenario and if so any insight or guidance would be highly appreciated.
Regards,
AK

you need planning & commencement notice and building reg compliant drawings before you go any further.

kieran.

In short, the building may have been a dwelling at some stage but the use of the building has changed to a Stables therefore you would need to apply for change of use from an agricultural building to a dwelling if its in 'Strong' area you will need to comply with local needs requirements.

useful info in relation to 'abandonment of use'
https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/PPI%20Appendix4-Hughescase.pdf

Allen2020

[font=Calibri Light","sans-serif]Hi Brian F. Thanks for the feedback.
I spoke to the area planner in the Cork County Council who referred me to the [font=Calibri Light","sans-serif]County Development Plan Objective 2014, page 69 section, RCI 8-1: Refurbishment of a Derelict Dwelling. [/font]

[font=Calibri Light","sans-serif]Do you think it will be difficult or impossible :-) I can live with difficult but not impossible. There are 2 bidders at present and they will not sell pending planning permission. Its a gamble that I may have to take.[/font][/font]

Allen2020

Hi Kieran. Thanks for the case info. I wonder how the appeal went.

kieran.

You need to employ a LOCAL person with the relevant experience in dealing with the area planner to look at this for you. It should be clearer after their advice.

Allen2020

I don't have time to go through the proper process as I need to decide on Monday so I'm hoping someone has some similar experience to share which turned out to be a success story.

BryanF

Allen2020 wrote: »

I don't have time to go through the proper process as I need to decide on Monday so I'm hoping someone has some similar experience to share which turned out to be a success story.

'Strong urban influence'

Would suggest this will be difficult

Rabbo

You're taking a big leap of faith by proceeding to purchase without a pre-planning meeting with council or local planning advice. There is a chance that the planning authority no longer consider it as a dwelling house and that it has effectively changed to a stable.

Allen2020

Thanks BryanF.
Hi Rabbo. I spoke with the councils local planning person and their advice was that I would need to prove that it was a dwelling as it is not currently. They also suggested that they would consider such situations favorably as they realize I would be restoring a nice building but it was just a suggestion.

Metric Tensor

You should not purchase it on Monday unless you are a speculative investor looking for a relatively high risk investment. The return would also be seriously hampered by the likely clause in a planning permission preventing you from selling the house for X years.

If you are Joe Public looking to buy/build a home for yourself and your family you should buy the site "subject to planning". This is the diligent and prudent way to spend your hard earned money. Any other option makes it gambling.

If the vendor is not willing to agree to sell it subject to planning it is most likely because they know you will not get planning permission.

Angry bird

Do not purchase, only purchase subject to planning. There are no guarantees at all you will get planning as habitable use has long since ceased.

Allen2020

Thanks for the feedback. I will know on Monday if they accept my offer, if they do I'm sending in an engineer to do a structural report, I might arrange a percolation test also. There is another bidder willing to buy without being subject to planning so its not an option for me.
I'm still hoping to find someone with experience with a similar scenario. I've spoken to a few people in the development and architecture business and they seem confident that the change of use should not be an issue but unfortunately they don't have any facts or previous experience to provide which would boost my confidence.
I live abroad but I intend on living there in a few years, that's why I'm not too fussed if it takes time to get the planning.
Thanks. AK

Lumen

Allen2020 wrote: »

There is another bidder willing to buy without being subject to planning so its not an option for me.

How can you be sure this is true? Do you know them?

Metric Tensor

Allen2020 wrote: »

There is another bidder willing to buy without being subject to planning so its not an option for me.

On the 50% chance they exist you should leave it to them.

I've spoken to a few people in the development and architecture business and they seem confident that the change of use should not be an issue but unfortunately they don't have any facts or previous experience

If they have no experience why are they giving an opinion?

The vendor is selling you a derelict shed and you think you're buying a house. You're letting your heart govern your head which is totally the wrong way to go about a 5 or 6 figure purchase.

Allen2020

I don't know the other bidder but I know someone who does so I can confirm it is true.

Its a 2 acre site a 10 minute walk from the coast and its just over 100k. The derelict building is 2000ft2.

The people I have asked so far are friends in building and one is an architect but neither of them have been involved in a change of use situation.

I'm going to pay for professional advise from a local architect during the week if it is confirmed my offer has been accepted tomorrow.

Allen2020

Does anyone know what would be required to prove the house has been lived in previously considering someone has not lived there for at least 30-40 years and downstairs is now a stable?

Is there any chance of getting change of use planning in a Rural Area under Strong Urban Influence even though I am not from the area? i.e. you had a similar situation or know someone with in a similar situation.

Thanks.

arctictree

Allen2020 wrote: »

Does anyone know what would be required to prove the house has been lived in previously considering someone has not lived there for at least 30-40 years and downstairs is now a stable?

A detailed historical report from a historical consultant with all supporting documentation and sworn affidavits from neighbors.

Allen2020 wrote: »

Is there any chance of getting change of use planning in a Rural Area under Strong Urban Influence even though I am not from the area? i.e. you had a similar situation or know someone with in a similar situation.
Thanks.

Not a chance. See PM.

Angry bird

Fools and their money...

BryanF

Allen2020 wrote: »

Does anyone know what would be required to prove the house has been lived in previously considering someone has not lived there for at least 30-40 years and downstairs is now a stable?

Is there any chance of getting change of use planning in a Rural Area under Strong Urban Influence even though I am not from the area? i.e. you had a similar situation or know someone with in a similar situation.

Thanks.

Allen
You don't seem to be getting what the majority are saying.

When I say 'majority' the responders in this thread, that i know of, include a planner, two structural engineers and two arch's.

Yet you keep looking for some muppet to say 'it will be ok'

Get a local arch to advise. Do not buy this site unless it's 'on condition of planning'

Best of luck

Allen2020

We can all live in hope. Thanks for all the feedback.

Rabbo

A site without planning permission (or reasonable chance of permission) is a field. Hope you're not buying for much more than agricultural value