VRT Madness

donalh087

I went to the UK a few weeks ago and bought a 2000 Shogun Sport (I'm doing some building and need a workhorse and this was well cared for).

The VRT code was €720 - a bit expensive but the car was spotless.

When I went to register it they said they had no code for this type (even though the exact model was on their calculator) so they would have to send to Rosslare for a quote. Deep down I hoped it could only be better that €720.

I got a phone call yesterday from the VRT people to say I owe over €1,500. More than double their online quote. Surely some mistake, I said, and she half agreed. She gave me a number of someone else in Revenue and I rang them - but they operate a call back service only.

This morning a guy from the revenue rang and said I must pay €1,500. I explained the code I had and he said the only way to discuss it was to pay the revenue first, then appeal it.

This is a horrible way to treat people. It is clearly their mistake (we all make mistakes) but I must pay before they even discuss it?

Excuse me while I go and smash things in the back garden.

bazz26

The only option is to lodge an appeal after paying the rate, good news is that successful appeal rates are high so you have a good chance of getting some money back.

donalh087

But bazz - even this morning the code online says 720 and they want 1,560. An estimate can be a little out - not 100% out.

If the estimator (€720) is wrong that's a serious mistake.

If the estimator (€720) is right then demanding €1,560 is a serious mistake.

Either way there is a mistake and it is only reasonable to untangle the mistake before I pay whats due.

bazz26

But it's an estimate, it's not written in stone. Are the car's Co2 figures on the v5 logbook matching that on the VRT site? What OMSP did they put on the car?

Your choices are as I mentioned earlier, appeal after paying or sell the car on still UK plates. And I'm not implying tough luck and to suck it up but there really is no process for debating it with Revenue beforehand.

Gravelly

Afraid your only choice is to pay and then appeal. I would be surprised if your appeal wasn't successful (most are in my experience) but it still has to be paid upfront.

donalh087

Getting places.

VRT are saying the quote from Rosslare was €1,500. Rosslare - using the same code - say they are looking for €720 not €1,500. So I think they can re-issue the code and I will be sorted. Finger crossed.

DaveyDave

It's a joke isn't it? The VRT on a 2017 Impreza WRX STI, a €36,000 car in the UK that isn't sold here, is around €22,000. Why? Because their ridiculous open market selling price says it's a €60,000 car.

The open market being based on the north and UK. But you can buy the car brand new for €36k. There's no guesswork there...

You should be able to fight it before you pay it.

donalh087

Well, here is some good news (for me anyway). Just got a phone call from Rosslare and they have decided to drop the VRT to €700.

FTW.

Bigsliothar

Had the same issue with a shogun sport last year,when rosslare returned code it was 300euro less than the code the vrt calculator had originally calculated.

Paid my money and ran😀

donalh087

Bigsliothar wrote: »

Had the same issue with a shogun sport last year,when rosslare returned code it was 300euro less than the code the vrt calculator had originally calculated.

Paid my money and ran��

Do you mind me asking what you paid Bigsliothar?

Notch000

its all a scam anyways, chargine import tax (cough registration) within an open trade market

Gravelly

Notch000 wrote: »

its all a scam anyways, chargine import tax (cough registration) within an open trade market

One of the many examples of how our government will stick to the letter of the EU law when f**king us over, but will find a workaround when the rule is to our advantage.

amf78

Gravelly wrote: »

One of the many examples of how our government will stick to the letter of the EU law when f**king us over, but will find a workaround when the rule is to our advantage.

I like the wording on the wikipedia page, so I'll take the liberty to copy/paste some of it:
Critics of VRT claim that it is effectively a continuation of the excise duty (which was applicable to vehicles in Ireland prior to 1992) and as such is illegal under European union law. It should also be noted that as it is calculated on the selling price of a vehicle, inclusive of VAT and VRT, so is in effect a double taxation. Along with complaints about the very high rate of tax, critics maintain the tax is ineffective in one of its stated aims the reduction of pollution from vehicles because while it may limit the number of vehicles on the road (by making new cars less affordable), it provides a disincentive for owners of older (more polluting) vehicles to replace their cars.
It does make critics sound like crazy people, doesn't it?

donalh087

Drove up to the VRT in Blarney (120k round trip) and they still had the original €1,560 quote and wouldn't accept anything less. It was 5 to 4 and the beauties in Rosslare had pulled the plug for the weekend. Literally, there is no ringing sound, no answer machine, nothing.

So, come back on Monday. Nobody gives a ****. Worse, they treat everyone like they are trying to scam them. As Jesse Pinkman would say 'it's Kafkaesque bitches'.

Gravelly

donalh087 wrote: »

Drove up to the VRT in Blarney (120k round trip) and they still had the original €1,560 quote and wouldn't accept anything less. It was 5 to 4 and the beauties in Rosslare had pulled the plug for the weekend. Literally, there is no ringing sound, no answer machine, nothing.

So, come back on Monday. Nobody gives a ****. Worse, they treat everyone like they are trying to scam them. As Jesse Pinkman would say 'it's Kafkaesque bitches'.

Oh the bastards - that's a kick in the teeth.

colm_mcm

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's a joke isn't it? The VRT on a 2017 Impreza WRX STI, a €36,000 car in the UK that isn't sold here, is around €22,000. Why? Because their ridiculous open market selling price says it's a €60,000 car.

The open market being based on the north and UK. But you can buy the car brand new for €36k. There's no guesswork there...

You should be able to fight it before you pay it.

Don't really see the issue here.
£36k is €40k, add your VRT and you have €62k.

Co2 is 246g so attracts 36% VRT. OMSP in Ireland includes VRT.

Can't see your issue beyond paying high VRT on one of the highest CO2 cars out there.

TallGlass

colm_mcm wrote: »

Don't really see the issue here.

The issue here is it wrong for the government to charge this VRT stupidity. The sooner the EU pull them up by the balls on it the better. If a car is registered in the EU it shouldn't matter what registration plate is on the car, it's an EU registered car, your essentially paying money to localise the number plate. The only way to stamp out this non sense is for the EU to roll out a European wise style number plate system.

And if it's just a registration fee, it should matter if the car has 4/6/20 wheels it's just a registration fee should the details should only matter for the paper not for any pricing fee.

bazz26

Other EU countries have VRT too, for example Denmark. It's not something exclusive to Ireland.

colm_mcm

TallGlass wrote: »

The issue here is it wrong for the government to charge this VRT stupidity. The sooner the EU pull them up by the balls on it the better. If a car is registered in the EU it shouldn't matter what registration plate is on the car, it's an EU registered car, your essentially paying money to localise the number plate. The only way to stamp out this non sense is for the EU to roll out a European wise style number plate system.

And if it's just a registration fee, it should matter if the car has 4/6/20 wheels it's just a registration fee should the details should only matter for the paper not for any pricing fee.

Oh right. I thought your issue was with the €60k OMSP rather than with the principle of VRT. There are numerous threads on this, most of them will point out that a lot of EUcountries have a registration tax, some a lot higher than in Ireland, plus taxes have to come from somewhere if people want social welfare/housing/healthcare system etc etc.

amf78

bazz26 wrote: »

Other EU countries have VRT too, for example Denmark. It's not something exclusive to Ireland.

That's sounds a bit like saying "in US there are white people too".
Well, first of all 12 member states don't have it.
Second, in 12 out of the remaining 16 that do, it's small potatoes (https://upcommons.upc.edu/bitstream/handle/2117/18150/vehicles.pdf)
Third, just because you steal and so do other 15 people in your neighborhood, that still doesn't make stealing legal.

colm_mcm wrote: »

Oh right. I thought your issue was with the €60k OMSP rather than with the principle of VRT.

That only adds insult to injury.

colm_mcm wrote: »

plus taxes have to come from somewhere if people want social welfare/housing/healthcare system etc etc.

So, you're telling me that ~32% of my annual income goes to charity? Not to mention car insurance, road tax (950 euro here vs 220 pounds up north).

To the OP: Really sorry about your predicament. Something tells me this is done at least in part deliberately in order to discourage UK imports. At some stage I was gonna go down the same route myself... I'd better ask for confirmation in writing

bazz26

By all means go out and challenge it in the courts if it's such a clear and cut case or why hasn't someone already successfully done that?

bear1

amf78 wrote: »

That's sounds a bit like saying "in US there are white people too".
Well, first of all 12 member states don't have it.
Second, in 12 out of the remaining 16 that do, it's small potatoes (https://upcommons.upc.edu/bitstream/handle/2117/18150/vehicles.pdf)
Third, just because you steal and so do other 15 people in your neighborhood, that still doesn't make stealing legal.



That only adds insult to injury.



So, you're telling me that ~32% of my annual income goes to charity? Not to mention car insurance, road tax (950 euro here vs 220 pounds up north).

To the OP: Really sorry about your predicament. Something tells me this is done at least in part deliberately in order to discourage UK imports. At some stage I was gonna go down the same route myself... I'd better ask for confirmation in writing

How is 32% of your annual salary going to charity?

Bigsliothar

donalh087 wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what you paid Bigsliothar?

€720 2004 model ,was surprised as I had the exact model up on vrt calculator and it was quoting 990 Iirc,when I brought in to vrt the girl couldn't find the model on her system which I thought a bit strange but saved me a few quid when rosslare sent back the code

BorneTobyWilde

About time someone took these con artists on. Will it be you ?
Would love someone to take this all the way to the high court and win.

relax carry on

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

About time someone took these con artists on. Will it be you ?
Would love someone to take this all the way to the high court and win.

On what grounds will the case be taken?

BorneTobyWilde

relax carry on wrote: »

On what grounds will the case be taken?

It's a fictional tax they plucked out of thin air. For years it use to cost 5k to tax a truck, someone took them on in court and for a while it went down to 333, now it's 900 I think.
If no one makes a fuss then it simple continues.

bazz26

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It's a fictional tax they plucked out of thin air. For years it use to cost 5k to tax a truck, someone took them on in court and for a while it went down to 333, now it's 900 I think.
If no one makes a fuss then it simple continues.

Thing is most Irish people are good at talking and complaining but ultimately wait for someone else to do something.

Reality is that it goes into the pot used to pay for other things just like the USC they introduced a few years ago. Fictitious or not they would just introduce it under another name and take it all the same. If it was straight forward to successfully challenge it then you would imagine some young legal eagle would do it to make a name for themselves.

TallGlass

colm_mcm wrote: »

Oh right. I thought your issue was with the €60k OMSP rather than with the principle of VRT. There are numerous threads on this, most of them will point out that a lot of EUcountries have a registration tax, some a lot higher than in Ireland, plus taxes have to come from somewhere if people want social welfare/housing/healthcare system etc etc.

bazz26 wrote: »

By all means go out and challenge it in the courts if it's such a clear and cut case or why hasn't someone already successfully done that?

Don't hate the player, hate the game :rolleyes:

jimmycrackcorm

amf78 wrote: »

That's sounds a bit like saying "in US there are white people too".
Well, first of all 12 member states don't have it.
Second, in 12 out of the remaining 16 that do, it's small potatoes (https://upcommons.upc.edu/bitstream/handle/2117/18150/vehicles.pdf)
Third, just because you steal and so do other 15 people in your neighborhood, that still doesn't make stealing legal.

Arguing about VRT is pointless, you may as well question taxes on alcohol / cigarettes etc. essentially taxes have to be raised and consumption based taxes are the fairest.
As for your point about the other member states, consider how many of those have water charges...

TallGlass

And as for OMSP, seems to suit them that it's fine to look at the UK market, which isn't anything to do with IRL market. Why not look at the market in Japan while they are at it.

Plus what is an OMSP? How can you have an open market selling price, it's an open market, you can sell anything for what you like. You could find a Ford Fiesta from 99 for 100k if you looked hard enough.

What a con.

bazz26

TallGlass wrote: »

Don't hate the player, hate the game :rolleyes:

I hate VRT the same as the next person but it's claimed many times here and elsewhere that it's illegal and shouldn't be allowed yet to date nobody has successfully challenged it in an Irish or European court of law. Why is that?

TallGlass

bazz26 wrote: »

I hate VRT the same as the next person but it's claimed many times here and elsewhere that it's illegal and shouldn't be allowed yet to date nobody has successfully challenged it in an Irish or European court of law. Why is that?

Massive cost I would imagine if you'd lose the case.

Regardless, we should not have to be taking our own government to court on these things they are meant to be in our interests. I doubt any government TD has ever had to deal with the VRT system, this is the problem when you've people creating a system they have no idea what or how it functions is the problem.

colm_mcm

I don't like PAYE either.

bazz26

TallGlass wrote: »

Massive cost I would imagine if you'd lose the case.

Regardless, we should not have to be taking our own government to court on these things they are meant to be in our interests. I doubt any government TD has ever had to deal with the VRT system, this is the problem when you've people creating a system they have no idea what or how it functions is the problem.

But we have the usual legal experts chiming in these type threads claiming it's illegal, yet nobody even those who really know the law, wants to take it through the courts because it's not so clear cut after all and they fear the risk of failure will incur huge costs on them.

fullstop

TallGlass wrote: »

Massive cost I would imagine if you'd lose the case.

But how would you lose, apparently it's illegal :rolleyes:

donalh087

Finally got a phonecall this morning from Rosslare to say they had reviewed the case and they were reducing the VRT to the original E720. No apology for treating like sh1t, no apologies for wasting a month, no apologies for trying to steal E800 from me.

It does blow the myth however that you have to pay first and then appeal. Also, I have an immense feeling of satisfaction.

Wildcard7

TallGlass wrote: »

Plus what is an OMSP? How can you have an open market selling price, it's an open market, you can sell anything for what you like. You could find a Ford Fiesta from 99 for 100k if you looked hard enough.

A price is a sum of money that someone is generally willing to pay for a particular good.

100k for a 99 Fiesta is not a price, it's a suggestion. It's also a pretty bad suggestion that will not be taken up by any buyer.

amf78

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0919/905877-vehicle-registration-tax/

But this ruling only applies to vehicles being brought here temporarily, like that's the biggest problem. Funny how both the dispute and the article itself gloss over the fact that VRT still applies to permanent imports. Some travesty of justice...

I like this paragraph in particular:

The European Commission referred Ireland to the Luxembourg Court because it regarded the Irish system as imposing a disproportionate cash-flow and financial burden on Irish residents who wanted to import hired or leased cars for a pre-determined and limited period of time.

When a foreign authority is more concerned with the well being of Irish citizens than the Irish government itself, that's when .... hits the fan!

bear1

I'm a bit confused as to the hiring and leasing of cars.
Why would you pay VRT if you hire a car in the UK and drive it to Ireland?

grogi

amf78 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0919/905877-vehicle-registration-tax/

But this ruling only applies to vehicles being brought here temporarily, like that's the biggest problem. Funny how both the dispute and the article itself gloss over the fact that VRT still applies to permanent imports. Some travesty of justice...

Because VRT is legal. It is only some provisions in Irish law that are not, not the tax itself.

When a foreign authority is more concerned with the well being of Irish citizens than the Irish government itself, that's when .... hits the fan!

The Commission is not concerned about Irish citizens. It is concerned when the local regulations impose limitations on one market for services. And that is a case in Ireland ATM, when a foreign lease company cannot offer the vehicles to Irish residents without a severe financial penalty.

setanta1000

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0919/905877-vehicle-registration-tax/

This is interesting - would a PCP arrangement be considered a short term lease in this instance and would that allow a UK (and NI) based manufacturer / dealer to offer a PCP deal to Irish residents on the value of a vehicle without VRT?....obviously only while the UK is within the purview of the European Commission.