Penalty point query

Jude13

I was insured under a relative's car whilst home, the insurance was secured with a non eu license. My relative has received a notice of a speeding offense.

I was over the limit and I am not disputing that I was or that I will pay the 80 euro fine however the 3 points is more of an issue.

I have an Irish drivers license but was insured on the my non EU license. I have heard that once I use my Irish license in the future that the point will be held until I use or renew my Irish license, so:
Whats the best course of action in relation to the points?
My non EU license has a slightly different name on it to my Irish licence so how would they know to put it on my Irish licence if I ever renewed it?

Thanks

Isambard

your insurance is irrelevant, your Irish license takes precedence over any other license in Ireland.

Jude13

They have asked my relative for my license number, the license I drive on and am insured under is a non eu driving license. Therefore I may well provide them with the license number, and name on my non eu license. Whilst paying the fine.

Isambard

If you have an Irish license, then you are driving on that and your foreign license is not relevant.

What you're asking is can you get away with this, maybe you can but I think it will be a false declaration that may have repercussions.

grogi

Isambard wrote: »

If you have an Irish license, then you are driving on that and your foreign license is not relevant.

What you're asking is can you get away with this, maybe you can but I think it will be a false declaration that may have repercussions.

But it is not OP that would be making that declaration.

wonski

grogi wrote: »

But it is not OP that would be making that declaration.

The OP will get a letter after the owner forwards his details to the Garda/RSA.

The owner only nominates who was driving iirc. The fine is then sent to the offending driver.

Isambard

grogi wrote: »

But it is not OP that would be making that declaration.

he said it would be him.... "I may well provide..."

coL

Does anyone know what checks they do when you nominate someone? Was just speaking to the hotline about the procedure for nominating someone and was asked if they had insurance, was told it was something that would be checked by the nomination section when processing. Bit nervous now as its a relation who assured me they had a policy that covered them but short of asking for the policy booklet I cant be certain!!

tcawley29

You'll be fine OP.
You need to provide them with your foreign license driver number.
The only way a license would be affected in these situations is if you exchanged the foreign one for an irish one.
You're grand here because you already have one.
Once you send in your foreign license number and pay the fine a virtual Irish license is created using the foreign license number and points are applied to it.
If that foreign license would ever get swapped for an Irish one, it is only at the point in time that the 3 years countdown for the penalty points begins.
Honestly if you're outside the EU I would get your relative to forward on your name, address and foreign license number for the fine and just not pay it once the updated penalty notice is sent to you.
Your relative will have himself covered and the Guards are not going to issue an international warrant for something so small

bear1

Isn't it not strictly legal to have 2 valid drivers licences from two different countries?

grogi

bear1 wrote: »

Isn't it not strictly legal to have 2 valid drivers licences from two different countries?

There is nothing illegal about that.

Dtp1979

Does penalties points increase insurance premiums much?

Cows Go µ

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Does penalties points increase insurance premiums much?

Depends on the insurer

tcawley29

bear1 wrote: »

Isn't it not strictly legal to have 2 valid drivers licences from two different countries?

In my case I have to. I cannot exchange my Irish license for a New York license.
I have to take my test again to get a New York one, therefore I will have two licenses.

hognef

grogi wrote: »

There is nothing illegal about that.

It's illegal to hold two EEA licences. OP's foreign license is non-EEA.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

bear1

grogi wrote: »

There is nothing illegal about that.

I think it is.
You can't have 2 valid licences as you must surrender it if you are living within the eu.
If you are banned from driving in France and surrender your French licence you could just drive off with your Irish licence.
That's obviously not legal.
Not relevant to the op anyway

grogi

bear1 wrote: »

I think it is.
You can't have 2 valid licences as you must surrender it if you are living within the eu.

That's more about technicalities of exchanging EU licenses, not legality of having two.

What's interesting, one might have a valid EU license (that was issued as an exchange of non-eu license - expensive. Chilean in Spain) that cannot be exchanged for a different EU country license (because the other country does not recognize the license from original country).

If you are banned from driving in France and surrender your French licence you could just drive off with your Irish licence.

Because the Irish license would get revoked as well as a result. Not because it is illegal to have two.

hognef

grogi wrote: »

That's more about technicalities of exchanging EU licenses, not legality of having two.

What's interesting, one might have a valid EU license (that was issued as an exchange of non-eu license - expensive. Chilean in Spain) that cannot be exchanged for a different EU country license (because the other country does not recognize the license from original country).



Because the Irish license would get revoked as well as a result. Not because it is illegal to have two.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32006L0126

5.

(a)

No person may hold more than one driving licence;

(b)

A Member State shall refuse to issue a licence where it establishes that the applicant already holds a driving licence;

(c)

Member States shall take the necessary measures pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving licence shall be to verify with other Member States where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the applicant is already the holder of another driving licence;

(d)

In order to facilitate the checks pursuant to point (b), Member States shall use the EU driving licence network once it is operational.

Del2005

coL wrote: »

Does anyone know what checks they do when you nominate someone? Was just speaking to the hotline about the procedure for nominating someone and was asked if they had insurance, was told it was something that would be checked by the nomination section when processing. Bit nervous now as its a relation who assured me they had a policy that covered them but short of asking for the policy booklet I cant be certain!!

I got caught on my brothers bike several years ago. Once I paid the money nothing else was asked for. But as I said this was several years ago and they are they might have changed the policy.

Unless you want the points, which would technically involve you breaking the law by taking them for someone else, you have to nominate the driver and let them deal with the insurance if it comes up.

Riva10

hognef wrote: »

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32006L0126

5.

(a)

No person may hold more than one driving licence;

(b)

A Member State shall refuse to issue a licence where it establishes that the applicant already holds a driving licence;

(c)

Member States shall take the necessary measures pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving licence shall be to verify with other Member States where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the applicant is already the holder of another driving licence;

(d)

In order to facilitate the checks pursuant to point (b), Member States shall use the EU driving licence network once it is operational.

Only relevant to EU licence. OP has New York Licence.

hognef

Riva10 wrote: »

Only relevant to EU licence. OP has New York Licence.

My response was in relation to a comment on EU licences.

grogi

hognef wrote: »

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32006L0126

And witch part of Irish law implements that points of this directive?

What's more, and that's to mine interpretation, that directive does not make it illegal to have two. It only requires not to issue a second license.

ohnonotgmail

grogi wrote: »

And witch part of Irish law implements that points of this directive?

What's more, and that's to mine interpretation, that directive does not make it illegal to have two. It only requires not to issue a second license.

how do you legally get a second licence if they wont issue more than one?

grogi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how do you legally get a second licence if they wont issue more than one?

You might have had two before 2006?!

hognef

grogi wrote: »

And witch part of Irish law implements that points of this directive?

What's more, and that's to mine interpretation, that directive does not make it illegal to have two. It only requires not to issue a second license.

What part of "No person may hold more than one driving licence" did you miss?

hognef

grogi wrote: »

You might have had two before 2006?!

Please remind me, for how long is an Irish license valid?

grogi

hognef wrote: »

What part of "No person may hold more than one driving licence" did you miss?

Since when EU Directives are local law? They need to be implemented by local legislature - so please quote here: which part of Irish Statue Book says that a person holding Irish Driving Licence cannot have another one?

grogi

hognef wrote: »

Please remind me, for how long is an Irish license valid?

And how is it relevant to legality of having two driving licenses?

It is legal to have two, it should be impossible to get a second one. Do you see the difference?

hognef

grogi wrote: »

Since when EU Directives are local law?

Since 19/1/2013, apparently: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/categories_of_motor_vehicles_and_minimum_age_of_drivers_in_ireland.html

grogi

hognef wrote: »

Since 19/1/2013, apparently: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/categories_of_motor_vehicles_and_minimum_age_of_drivers_in_ireland.html

So parts of that directive were implemented by local law, they did not automatically became it.

Where does S.I. No. 330/2012 - Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (I am guessing you're referring to this one) state it is illegal to have two driving licenses? I'll give you a clue - it doesn't. This regulation mainly about harmonisation of driving license categories and format of the driving license (since then we get the plastic license).

hognef

grogi wrote: »

And how is it relevant to legality of having two driving licenses?

It is legal to have two

Apparently it's not.

it should be impossible to get a second one.

It should also be impossible to renew a second licence:

(b)

A Member State shall refuse to issue a licence where it establishes that the applicant already holds a driving licence;

(c)

Member States shall take the necessary measures pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving licence shall be to verify with other Member States where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the applicant is already the holder of another driving licence;

hognef

grogi wrote: »

Where does S.I. No. 330/2012 - Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (I am guessing you're referring to this one)

As you can see in my message, I was referring to Citizens' Information.

grogi

hognef wrote: »

As you can see in my message, I was referring to Citizens' Information.

Do you consider "Rules of the Road" law too? Unless you quote anything concrete, I will not reply.

circular flexing

tcawley29 wrote: »

In my case I have to. I cannot exchange my Irish license for a New York license.
I have to take my test again to get a New York one, therefore I will have two licenses.

When you take your test in NY, you will have to give up your license to the examiner. NY forbids you from holding more than one unexpired license

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/vehicle-and-traffic-law/vat-sect-509.html

10. No person shall hold an unexpired license issued by the commissioner while holding a driver's license issued by any other jurisdiction.  This prohibition shall not apply to any license which by its terms is valid only within the jurisdiction of issuance.  Nor shall it apply if such person has informed the commissioner of such multiple licenses and the commissioner has determined that it is necessary for such person to hold more than one license to comply with the laws of each of the jurisdictions in which such licenses were issued.  The foregoing exceptions shall not be applicable to commercial driver's licenses after December thirty-first, nineteen hundred eighty-nine.

grogi

grogi wrote: »

Because the Irish license would get revoked as well as a result. Not because it is illegal to have two.

The ban only applies in france not in Ireland so I don't see how they could revoke your Irish licence. Even if they took it you would be entitled to get another one back in Ireland.

circular flexing wrote: »

When you take your test in NY, you will have to give up your license to the examiner. NY forbids you from holding more than one unexpired license

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/vehicle-and-traffic-law/vat-sect-509.html

You don't, I know someone living there and he obvoulsy keeps his EU licence for driving when at home and has his New York one for driving over there.

tcawley29

Hannah Fast Historian wrote: »

grogi wrote: »

Because the Irish license would get revoked as well as a result. Not because it is illegal to have two.

The ban only applies in france not in Ireland so I don't see how they could revoke your Irish licence. Even if they took it you would be entitled to get another one back in Ireland.

circular flexing wrote: »

When you take your test in NY, you will have to give up your license to the examiner. NY forbids you from holding more than one unexpired license

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/vehicle-and-traffic-law/vat-sect-509.html

You don't, I know soneone living there and he obvoulsy keeps his EU licence for driving when at home and has his New York one for driving over there.

Exactly. Besides, how would they know about the license if I don't tell them about it.

circular flexing

Hannah Fast Historian wrote: »

You don't, I know someone living there and he obvoulsy keeps his EU licence for driving when at home and has his New York one for driving over there.

Why "obviously"? A US drivers license is perfectly valid for driving in Ireland, particularly during short trips.

circular flexing

tcawley29 wrote: »

Exactly. Besides, how would they know about the license if I don't tell them about it.

Right, so you're not going to disclose relevant information to state authorities? Seems like a wise course of action.

tcawley29

circular flexing wrote: »

Hannah Fast Historian wrote: »

You don't, I know someone living there and he obvoulsy keeps his EU licence for driving when at home and has his New York one for driving over there.

Why "obviously"? A US drivers license is perfectly valid for driving in Ireland, particularly during short trips.

While a US license is valid for travel you are forgetting one thing.
Most rental companies require you to hold a license 5+ years.
If you say in my case just start out on a US license you would not be able to rent a car even though I am old enough, and have been driving for 7 years in Ireland.

circular flexing wrote: »

tcawley29 wrote: »

Exactly. Besides, how would they know about the license if I don't tell them about it.

Right, so you're not going to disclose relevant information to state authorities? Seems like a wise course of action.


***Below not supposed to be quoted***
Why would they need to know about it. I'm not here on a holiday so my Irish license is worthless here.
If I surrendered it I would then have to go through the theory test, 12 lessons and test again in Ireland.
It cost enough to do it once, why would I do it a second time?
Also as I have my Irish license 7 years I can use it for car rental when I go home on holidays, also its a handy form of ID to carry for Nightclubs/pubs if required.

CiniO

I don't know where people are getting this that you can't have 2 licences.

You can't within EU, so you can't have Irish and French licence at the same time.

But there's absolutely nothing stopping you from having Irish licence and Ukrainian licence at the same time.

CiniO

bear1 wrote: »

I think it is.
You can't have 2 valid licences as you must surrender it if you are living within the eu.
If you are banned from driving in France and surrender your French licence you could just drive off with your Irish licence.
That's obviously not legal.
Not relevant to the op anyway

While holding both Irish and French licences is not legal, but your case is not true.

Imagine you only have Irish licence, and you get banned in France. Ban applies only in France. French authorities can't take your Irish licence, so you can drive everywhere else than in France.

carloscorreia

CiniO wrote: »

While holding both Irish and French licences is not legal, but your case is not true.

Imagine you only have Irish licence, and you get banned in France. Ban applies only in France. French authorities can't take your Irish licence, so you can drive everywhere else than in France.

If I'm not mistaken, this happened to Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond a few year ago during some Top Gear filming..

circular flexing

circular flexing wrote: »

Why "obviously"? A US drivers license is perfectly valid for driving in Ireland, particularly during short trips.

Try being down as a named driver with a US licence (especially a new one) and see how you get on. If they will even do it the cost will be through the roof. Lots of Irish people living abroad drive families cars when at home so this would be a real issue. Even if they have a binding requirement to surrender your licence (which I would question it actually is) they can't make you, they don't even need to know you have one.

I see no reason why anybody would hand over their european licence if acquiring a non-eu licence, in fact anyone would be mad to as it will just be hassle when visiting home and hassle down the line when moving home.

circular flexing

Hannah Fast Historian wrote: »

Try being down as a named driver with a US licence (especially a new one) and see how you get on. If they will even do it the cost will be through the roof. Lots of Irish people living abroad drive families cars when at home so this would be a real issue. Even if they have a binding requirement to surrender your licence (which I would question it actually is) they can't make you, they don't even need to know you have one.

A lot of people rely on their Irish license to bypass restrictions that might otherwise be placed on them when they move to a different country. This was the case for BC (though now BC does straight swap) and appears to be the case for e.g. NY. My wife drove her sisters car with a 1 year old BC license and the insurance company didn't have an issue with it. Similarly, she rented a car in Ireland with a 2 month old BC license and didn't get loaded with any charges. I don't believe the issues you allude to actually exist.

I see no reason why anybody would hand over their european licence if acquiring a non-eu licence, in fact anyone would be mad to as it will just be hassle when visiting home and hassle down the line when moving home.

Aside from the fact that local law forbids more than one license?

circular flexing

tcawley29 wrote: »

While a US license is valid for travel you are forgetting one thing.
Most rental companies require you to hold a license 5+ years.
If you say in my case just start out on a US license you would not be able to rent a car even though I am old enough, and have been driving for 7 years in Ireland.

My wife rented a car in Ireland with a 2 month old BC license and had no issues. Rental companies are more interested in your age than driving experience.

Why would they need to know about it. I'm not here on a holiday so my Irish license is worthless here.
If I surrendered it I would then have to go through the theory test, 12 lessons and test again in Ireland.
It cost enough to do it once, why would I do it a second time?
Also as I have my Irish license 7 years I can use it for car rental when I go home on holidays, also its a handy form of ID to carry for Nightclubs/pubs if required.

Your Irish license it not worthless (suggest you read the NYS DMV site).

If you did surrender your Irish license, you could still get it back within 10 years of the expiry date of your original license. You just need your driver number.

tcawley29

circular flexing wrote: »

tcawley29 wrote: »

While a US license is valid for travel you are forgetting one thing.
Most rental companies require you to hold a license 5+ years.
If you say in my case just start out on a US license you would not be able to rent a car even though I am old enough, and have been driving for 7 years in Ireland.

My wife rented a car in Ireland with a 2 month old BC license and had no issues. Rental companies are more interested in your age than driving experience.

Why would they need to know about it. I'm not here on a holiday so my Irish license is worthless here.
If I surrendered it I would then have to go through the theory test, 12 lessons and test again in Ireland.
It cost enough to do it once, why would I do it a second time?
Also as I have my Irish license 7 years I can use it for car rental when  I go home on holidays, also its a handy form of ID to carry for  Nightclubs/pubs if required.

Your Irish license it not worthless (suggest you read the NYS DMV site).

If you did surrender your Irish license, you could still get it back within 10 years of the expiry date of your original license. You just need your driver number.

Being a 25 year old male would definitely not help me in Ireland so.
Budget and Avis terms say you need a full license 8 years for the worst car they have
Sixt and Dan Dooley I think is 21+ with a full license 5 years.
Trust me I read those terms over the christmas when I was trying to rent.
In the end it was just way too expensive.

I read that and did see that part, however it is to me as I cannot afford a car yet.
It is just 100x easier to say I don't have one when applying for the Full.
The DMV told me it didn't matter when I was getting the learner permit anyways.

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

You can't within EU, so you can't have Irish and French licence at the same time.

It is not illegal. You shouldn't be able to get new or renew a license if you already have a license in another member state, but just having two is not an offence. What is an offence is lying in your declaration that you don't have any..

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

While holding both Irish and French licences is not legal, but your case is not true.

Imagine you only have Irish licence, and you get banned in France. Ban applies only in France. French authorities can't take your Irish licence, so you can drive everywhere else than in France.

Let's not forget the ban applies to a person. Revoking the license back is just a measure to ease the enforcement, but the person simply cannot drive in particular area - regardless how many licenses they have.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

While holding both Irish and French licences is not legal, but your case is not true.

Imagine you only have Irish licence, and you get banned in France. Ban applies only in France. French authorities can't take your Irish licence, so you can drive everywhere else than in France.

This is not always true CiniO, depends on many circumstances, but a ban in France could potentially see you with no Irish licence either.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

This is not always true CiniO, depends on many circumstances, but a ban in France could potentially see you with no Irish licence either.

That sounds interesting.
I always believed, that no foreign authority can take your licence issued in different country.