Question Window Sensors

vintagecosmos

HI All,

First time here, as its my first time needing advice on alarms

Doing the rounds and speaking to different companies. Its a very competitive environment and they all spend half the time talking about how bad their competitors etc etc. Lot of scaremongering too.

Anyway, I was just on to one of them who said that anyone who tries to sell you shock sensors on your window should have their licence revoked as they simply dont work.

He said PIR in the room and magnetic contacts only on the window. I guess my idea was if someone tried to break in the alarm sounds before they even get in. But it sounds like this isnt possible...

Any thoughts?

thanks

VC

degsie

No expert, but if magnetic contacts only on windows then breaking the window pane will not activate alarm. If someone then enters the room them presumably the pir will detect.

With shock sensors only on windows then it would be possible to arm the alarm even if you accidentally leave a window open.

A combination of both would be the best approach imho.

KoolKid

What utter rubbish.
This is the type of lad to avoid. And every installer on here will say the same.
The whole point of an alarm is to deter a burglar and get rid of them as quickly as possible. Whats the point in a system that will let you do as much damage as you like to a window & door & not activate untill you get into the house. What if you want to set your alarm while you are in at night?
As a minimum shocks & contacts on all accessible windows then one or 2 PiRs internally.
Shop around and get at least 3 quotes from professional licenced installers who know what they are on about.
I'm in this business a long time every year our jobs have been inspected by NASI or EQA. A job has never failed an inspection for having inertia shock sensors.

vintagecosmos

Thanks for the replies folks. Yes, it thought it was a bit extreme. Its a bit frustrating as I would ask a question about they system and i get 10 minutes of how others are ****e and then about 5 minutes of fluff about why they are the best and finally get an answer. I have contacted aseveral companies and sent on some drawings so hopefully I hear back soon. (including the ones in the Sticky)

Thanks again.

Stoner

vintagecosmos wrote:

Anyway, I was just on to one of them who said that anyone who tries to sell you shock sensors on your window should have their licence revoked as they simply dont work.

I assume means just using shock sensors and not combining them with mag contacts

vintagecosmos

Stoner wrote: »

I assume means just using shock sensors and not combining them with mag contacts

Possibly. But he just was adamant that shock sensors are useless and they simply dont work. I was saying that I want to try to frighten them off before they get in. Like it someone breaks a window pane but doesnt actually open the window will I be secure... But he just said they dont use them. I suspect perhaps a limitation of their equipment, I dont know.

KoolKid

Contacts are much cheaper than shocks or combined shock contacts. Possibles looking to go in sat the cheaper price but still make the higher profit.

kub

Sounds to me like he either is incapable of finding a fault when an inertia shock sensor goes faulty or as KoolKid said Contacts are a lot cheaper than Inertia Shock sensors and therefore he is making more of a margin.

Any guy on a sales call who spends most of his time talking about his competitors is obviously afraid of something.

vintagecosmos

kub wrote: »

Sounds to me like he either is incapable of finding a fault when an inertia shock sensor goes faulty or as KoolKid said Contacts are a lot cheaper than Inertia Shock sensors and therefore he is making more of a margin.

Any guy on a sales call who spends most of his time talking about his competitors is obviously afraid of something.

Yes thats what turned me off them. talking about how terrible your competitors tactics are then deploying them yourself is a bit much...

vintagecosmos

Here is a line from an email.

For customers who prefer to opt for perimeter protection Visonics offer the award winning curtain sensor. It is virtually impossible for an intruder to gain access through a window or door that is protected by a curtain beam. Other lower quality systems tend to rely on outdated shock or vibration sensors to protect windows and doors. These devices commonly fail to detect an intruder entering a premised and they are also prone to false alarms. False alarms are virtually non existent when windows are protected by curtain motion detectors.

Am I right in saying a curtain beam will only detect movement i.e. a window opening and not someone attempting to open it (i.e. shock)

degsie

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Am I right in saying a curtain beam will only detect movement i.e. a window opening and not someone attempting to open it (i.e. shock)

I'm guessing that if it's just a thin beam pir sensor it will detect anything moving in it's active field. Assuming that it is meant for indoor use, an intruder would have to break the perimeter (door/window pane) before detection.

KoolKid

What waffle. Its still not going to activate untill AFTER an intruder has gained entry.

Patatina

I think I spoke to the same person! Am also trying to figure out what's the best company / options to go with.

He told me that the curtain sensors will activate to an increase in temperature and are the only type of sensor that will activate if a burglar tries to extract the pane of glass from the window- i.e shock sensors won't pick this up. Any thoughts?

He also had opinions on frequency:
"Almost all wireless manufacturers in Europe are now using the 868.600 MHz frequency which is the CE standard. This a protected bandwidth referred to as ISM. It is recommended by the CE standard for exclusive use by alarms and the sub-band is not shared by other services and devices. We would strongly advise you to check the frequency of an alarm system before purchasing, and to avoid the unlicensed 433 MHz frequency which is easily jammed. There are low priced suppliers offering 433 Mhz systems so do your homework. If the system is cheap there is a good chance it transmits on the unlicensed 433 Mhz frequency. HomeSecure use a system that transmits on this frequency"

What do ye think of this?

KoolKid

These guys are really just trying to sell you what they want to install.
Ask then to install any other brand & they will make an excuse not to.
There cant be a problem with every other brand on the market besides theirs.
There can be a problem with every other company except theirs.
Perimeter protection can only be properly achieved with inertia shock contacts & magnetic contacts on all accessible points of entry.
It doesn't matter what kind of PiR you install its not going to activate untill AFTER the intruder has gained entry.
433 mhz is unlicensed ?????

kub

What there are companies that still want to install Visionic......:D?????


I am still laughing at the bull in that email.

Patatina

Ok think I'll steer clear of this company then!

So is the frequency thing something I should be asking about?

Also is there a difference between accreditations - NCIS, EQA, EN50131??

Do the Gardaí respond to self monitored alarms? What is the real advantage of having a monitored system?

vintagecosmos

Sure might as well put in all the info. I wont name the company. Sorry for the long post. Also, i didnt include all the BOLD RED TEXT!

---
Our systems are faster than those of all other providers at transmitting monitoring or text signals.

BEWARE ! BEWARE! BEWARE!!!!! (IF you are opting for Garda monitoring please take note)

Beware of very low priced monitored systems. There is a possibility that these systems do not comply with the EN 50131 standard. This is despite the fact that the providers of these systems issue a cert of compliance. Equipment must be certified by both the supplier and the manufacturer. An issue will not arise until you go to make a claim.

Beware of monitoring providers who make it impossible for you to switch providers. One low priced provider has exclusive rights to the system they use therefore you cannot switch. Another maintains ownership of the equipment so you cannot switch.

Beware of providers offering a three year contract at a particular price, however ,THEIR TERMS AND CONDITIONS MAY STATE THAT THEY ARE PERMITTED TO RAISE THE PRICE DURING YOUR CONTRACT. (Our contract does not allow us to increase your fees during your three year contract.)

We strongly advise you to avoid any provider that does not make their terms crystal clear.

We normally use HKC for our prewired monitored systems, however we prefer to use Tyco-Visonics for our Wireless installations for the simple reason that it is superior to all other systems. The Visonics Powermaster range boasts battery life of eight years on all devices. Many of the bigger operators use Visonics and Visonics is the biggest supplier of wireless systems in the world. Smaller operators who do not have experience of Visonics equipment and suggest to customers that other systems are superior are simply trying to mislead. Visonics systems outsell all other systems by several million units per annum and they have for years supplied large companies such as Siemens with wireless components. Beware of low priced suppliers who sell DIY kits that are plugged into a socket in your hallway for power.

Reasons why you should choose Visonics wireless over other systems:

1. The keypad is less than half the size of the HKC Quantum for example. We often receive complaints from customers regarding the size of the Quantum panel. If you opt for the HKC Quantum we would advise that it is hidden away as at the size of an A4 sheet of paper it is too large for an average hallway.

2. Customers can change batteries themselves on a Visonics system. You cannot carry out battery changes yourself on any other system including HKC. If an engineering code is entered into a system by any person other than a licensed installer that system no longer complies with the EN 50131 standard.

3. You can turn off the entry delay on a Visonics system making the texting and monitoring infinitely faster than that of all other systems. Visonics is the fastest system on the market at sending monitoring signals. This is the most important factor as intruders enter through the front door in almost all cases and attempt to destroy the alarm panel before monitoring signals can be sent. You would be surprised at the number of monitored systems that fail to send a signal during an actual burglary. Visonics systems will send a text to your mobile phone within one second of your front door opening, almost one minute faster than that of all other systems. This is the only factor that consumers should consider. You can cover multiple windows and doors, cover rooms with motion detectors, pay for apps etc but if the system is slow to send a signal all the above is for nothing. A slow system is no better than only having a dummy box on the front of your home. Both will deter most intruders but when the organised intruders arrive both will fail.

4. We offer unlimited parts and labour cover (subject to terms) to all our monitored customers during their contract period. To unmonitored or self monitored customers we offer a two year parts warranty on Visonics equipment. After the two years warranty expires replacement parts of any kind will only incur a nominal fee of €50 per part. This means even the control panel can be replaced for only €50 in several years time. This virtually means that you have a lifetime parts warranty. No other manufacturer offers this level of cover.

5. Visonics have over sixty approved installers and maintenance providers in the Dublin area.

6. For customers who prefer to opt for perimeter protection Visonics offer the award winning curtain sensor. It is virtually impossible for an intruder to gain access through a window or door that is protected by a curtain beam. Other lower quality systems tend to rely on outdated shock or vibration sensors to protect windows and doors. These devices commonly fail to detect an intruder entering a premised and they are also prone to false alarms. False alarms are virtually non existent when windows are protected by curtain motion detectors.

7. Visonics offer special devices for protecting expensive paintings. They also offer outdoor motion detectors.

8. Visonics offer the Powermaster system which boasts eight year battery life on all devices. The Powermaster system also has an option for a touchscreen arming station in black, silver or white.

Limited installation slots available for NEXT week!

We can switch customers with the older Eircom Phonewatch systems to our monitoring station. The contract is a minimum of three years and the price for monitoring is €220 per annum.

Note for monitored customers: You do not own equipment supplied by Phonewatch so when your price increases you cannot switch providers. You are unable to switch from any of the low priced suppliers as they have unique agreements with the manufacturers of their systems whereby the manufacturers will only supply parts to one supplier. If you cannot get parts for a system you cannot take over the monitoring of that system, and you the consumer have no option to switch supplier if their price rises or if you are unhappy with their service.

vintagecosmos

Almost forgot, another "fact" was in Honeypark Dun Laoghaire there have been over 40 break ins and in each case, they just submerged their alarm panels in water making them useless.

While it may be true, I never mentioned any connection to Dun Laoghaire.

rolion

vintagecosmos wrote: »

HI All,

First time here, as its my first time needing advice on alarms

Doing the rounds and speaking to different companies. Its a very competitive environment and they all spend half the time talking about how bad their competitors etc etc. Lot of scaremongering too.

Anyway, I was just on to one of them who said that anyone who tries to sell you shock sensors on your window should have their licence revoked as they simply dont work.

He said PIR in the room and magnetic contacts only on the window. I guess my idea was if someone tried to break in the alarm sounds before they even get in. But it sounds like this isnt possible...

Any thoughts?

thanks

VC

This is my setup:
inertia AND contact sensors on windows opening frame
Wall mounted PIR at the eyeview of the both windows
In the room internal dual technolgy PIR sensors

As above,you will need to get protection against breaking/walking in and not while inside the house as guess is too late.
Not lastly,lots of detterent devices so that your house looks harder to break in compared to near neighbour(s).
The window PIR has been modified and a large bright LEDs flashing warns the potential "friend" of the presence of the sensor.

Enjoy it.

kub

Patatina wrote: »

Ok think I'll steer clear of this company then!

So is the frequency thing something I should be asking about?

Also is there a difference between accreditations - NCIS, EQA, EN50131??

Do the Gardaespond to self monitored alarms? What is the real advantage of having a monitored system?

Any system that complies with EN50131 has to be on the 868 mhz frequency.

The likes of EQA, NSAI etc, are the guys that assess intruder alarm companies to insure that the EN50131 standard is being maintained.

Patatina

Is the 868 frequency more reliable than the 433?

One big company I spoke to told me their system operates on the 433 and that that is less susceptible to being interrupted- the opposite of what I've heard /read so far!

Stoner

Lads I know we haven't named a company and that's all good.

So please don't be tempted to name systems or suggest ways to disarm other products .

Please watch this as it might inform the wrong element

KoolKid

vintagecosmos wrote: »

Sure might as well put in all the info. I wont name the company. Sorry for the long post. Also, i didnt include all the BOLD RED TEXT!

---
Our systems are faster than those of all other providers at transmitting monitoring or text signals.

BEWARE ! BEWARE! BEWARE!!!!! (IF you are opting for Garda monitoring please take note)

Beware of very low priced monitored systems. There is a possibility that these systems do not comply with the EN 50131 standard. This is despite the fact that the providers of these systems issue a cert of compliance. Equipment must be certified by both the supplier and the manufacturer. An issue will not arise until you go to make a claim.

Beware of monitoring providers who make it impossible for you to switch providers. One low priced provider has exclusive rights to the system they use therefore you cannot switch. Another maintains ownership of the equipment so you cannot switch.

Beware of providers offering a three year contract at a particular price, however ,THEIR TERMS AND CONDITIONS MAY STATE THAT THEY ARE PERMITTED TO RAISE THE PRICE DURING YOUR CONTRACT. (Our contract does not allow us to increase your fees during your three year contract.)

We strongly advise you to avoid any provider that does not make their terms crystal clear.

We normally use HKC for our prewired monitored systems, however we prefer to use Tyco-Visonics for our Wireless installations for the simple reason that it is superior to all other systems. The Visonics Powermaster range boasts battery life of eight years on all devices. Many of the bigger operators use Visonics and Visonics is the biggest supplier of wireless systems in the world. Smaller operators who do not have experience of Visonics equipment and suggest to customers that other systems are superior are simply trying to mislead. Visonics systems outsell all other systems by several million units per annum and they have for years supplied large companies such as Siemens with wireless components. Beware of low priced suppliers who sell DIY kits that are plugged into a socket in your hallway for power.

Reasons why you should choose Visonics wireless over other systems:

1. The keypad is less than half the size of the HKC Quantum for example. We often receive complaints from customers regarding the size of the Quantum panel. If you opt for the HKC Quantum we would advise that it is hidden away as at the size of an A4 sheet of paper it is too large for an average hallway.

2. Customers can change batteries themselves on a Visonics system. You cannot carry out battery changes yourself on any other system including HKC. If an engineering code is entered into a system by any person other than a licensed installer that system no longer complies with the EN 50131 standard.

3. You can turn off the entry delay on a Visonics system making the texting and monitoring infinitely faster than that of all other systems. Visonics is the fastest system on the market at sending monitoring signals. This is the most important factor as intruders enter through the front door in almost all cases and attempt to destroy the alarm panel before monitoring signals can be sent. You would be surprised at the number of monitored systems that fail to send a signal during an actual burglary. Visonics systems will send a text to your mobile phone within one second of your front door opening, almost one minute faster than that of all other systems. This is the only factor that consumers should consider. You can cover multiple windows and doors, cover rooms with motion detectors, pay for apps etc but if the system is slow to send a signal all the above is for nothing. A slow system is no better than only having a dummy box on the front of your home. Both will deter most intruders but when the organised intruders arrive both will fail.

4. We offer unlimited parts and labour cover (subject to terms) to all our monitored customers during their contract period. To unmonitored or self monitored customers we offer a two year parts warranty on Visonics equipment. After the two years warranty expires replacement parts of any kind will only incur a nominal fee of €50 per part. This means even the control panel can be replaced for only €50 in several years time. This virtually means that you have a lifetime parts warranty. No other manufacturer offers this level of cover.

5. Visonics have over sixty approved installers and maintenance providers in the Dublin area.

6. For customers who prefer to opt for perimeter protection Visonics offer the award winning curtain sensor. It is virtually impossible for an intruder to gain access through a window or door that is protected by a curtain beam. Other lower quality systems tend to rely on outdated shock or vibration sensors to protect windows and doors. These devices commonly fail to detect an intruder entering a premised and they are also prone to false alarms. False alarms are virtually non existent when windows are protected by curtain motion detectors.

7. Visonics offer special devices for protecting expensive paintings. They also offer outdoor motion detectors.

8. Visonics offer the Powermaster system which boasts eight year battery life on all devices. The Powermaster system also has an option for a touchscreen arming station in black, silver or white.

Limited installation slots available for NEXT week!

We can switch customers with the older Eircom Phonewatch systems to our monitoring station. The contract is a minimum of three years and the price for monitoring is €220 per annum.

Note for monitored customers: You do not own equipment supplied by Phonewatch so when your price increases you cannot switch providers. You are unable to switch from any of the low priced suppliers as they have unique agreements with the manufacturers of their systems whereby the manufacturers will only supply parts to one supplier. If you cannot get parts for a system you cannot take over the monitoring of that system, and you the consumer have no option to switch supplier if their price rises or if you are unhappy with their service.

I never heard so much sales speel in all my life.

Faster monitoring than others??:D
8 Year battery life. I have plenty of Visonic systems installed . None have that battery life.
Calling PiRs perimeter protection ?:D
Over 60 approved installers? So has most other systems.
Customers can change batteries themselves,, This will still affect EN50131 if the system is not serviced every year by a licenced installer.

The only sense hes making is re the PW systems & the HKC timer on battery replacement for the panel.

Move along from this is my recommendation, any company that resorts to bare faced lies is best avoided.