Social welfare refusing to delete personal data

School Socks

Can a former client of the department of social protection demand that the department delete all their personal data (photo copies of passports, utility bills etc) if not what law says they don't have to delete this data ?

Sleeper12

I'd have thought that they will need this information in the future. Maybe maternity / paternity leave, sick leave, state pension etc.

john.han

It's probably allowed that they retain the information in case they in the future become aware of fraud/potential fraud. Would not be logical for such a department to delete/destroy their records.

January

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'd have thought that they will need this information in the future. Maybe maternity / paternity leave, sick leave, state pension etc.

You have to re-submit everything for each new claim so that's not it.

Wexfordboy89

Not sure about the bills part etc but I read somewhere that everyone is going to need one of the social welfare cards with your picture on it.think in the future you will need it to get a passport it was an article I read a while ago.so guessing at very least they need your photo

CIARAN_BOYLE

School Socks wrote: »

Can a former client of the department of social protection demand that the department delete all their personal data (photo copies of passports, utility bills etc) if not what law says they don't have to delete this data ?

I would imagine that there's something on prevention of fraud that prevents the department of social welfare from getting rid of personal information.

GerardKeating

School Socks wrote: »

Can a former client of the department of social protection demand that the department delete all their personal data (photo copies of passports, utility bills etc) if not what law says they don't have to delete this data ?

Most likely, when they applied for what ever benefit that required this data to be submitted, they "agreed" to allow the dept to retain the data and also share it with other departments, sometimes this "agreement" expires if the claim is denied.

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

Not sure about the bills part etc but I read somewhere that everyone is going to need one of the social welfare cards with your picture on it.think in the future you will need it to get a passport it was an article I read a while ago.so guessing at very least they need your photo

One currently need the Public Service card to apply for most Social welfare payments, passports, and just recently also for a Driving Licence. I am sure they have other plans for it.

Wexfordboy89

GerardKeating wrote: »

One currently need the Public Service card to apply for most Social welfare payments, passports, and just recently also for a Driving Licence. I am sure they have other plans for it.

Ya im thinking its a way of bringing in a national if card they have been trying to do for awhile

Miaireland

School Socks wrote:

Can a former client of the department of social protection demand that the department delete all their personal data (photo copies of passports, utility bills etc) if not what law says they don't have to delete this data ?

Can they claim that this is not proof of identity? I know with my bank I have to drop in stuff like that every few years. To be honest I can't see why anyone would object to these being held.

School Socks

Miaireland wrote: »

to be honest I can't see why anyone would object to these being held.

This is the department who's staff sold Delores McNamaras file to the tabloids within 48 hours of her winning the euro millions.

coylemj

School Socks wrote: »

This is the department who's staff sold Delores McNamaras file to the tabloids within 48 hours of her winning the euro millions.

Several staff members in the Limerick office looked up her details the week after she won and all of them got a slap on the wrist for their troubles.

It's now common knowledge in all departments that accessing personal data is logged and you better be able to justify why you looked up somebody's details if the internal auditors come calling.

Frankly, the details the Dept of Social Welfare have on you is small beer compared to the Revenue. And how do you think you'll feel when you reach pension age, apply for the free travel and/or the old age pension and they say they have no record of you?

Gatling

Cradle to the grave contact unfortunately including any wife or kids information will be retained

Mrs OBumble

coylemj wrote: »

Several staff members in the Limerick office looked up her details the week after she won and all of them got a slap on the wrist for their troubles.

It's now common knowledge in all departments that accessing personal data is logged and you better be able to justify why you looked up somebody's details if the internal auditors come calling.

If you win anything large that get published, or even appear on certain TV shows, you should assume that both Revenue and Welfare will review your records to make sure that nothing is amiss.

But they should not be selling your records, or even commenting, to the media about you.

Victor

Miaireland wrote: »

I know with my bank I have to drop in stuff like that every few years.

That sounds unusual. Whatever about opening a new account, they shouldn't be habitually looking for identity information.

coylemj wrote: »

Several staff members in the Limerick office looked up her details the week after she won and all of them got a slap on the wrist for their troubles.

While lots looked up the data, some did have a genuine reason for looking - those tasked with determining if such people owe them money.

coylemj wrote: »

Frankly, the details the Dept of Social Welfare have on you is small beer compared to the Revenue.

It will depend on the person's profile, e.g. if they are ill and claiming illness benefit, DSP will have more information. If they claimed medical expenses and had a Revenue audit, Revenue would have more.

Gatling wrote: »

Cradle to the grave contact unfortunately including any wife or kids information will be retained

Don't forget your parents! And via that, your siblings.

I love Sean nos

School Socks wrote: »

a former client

Miaireland wrote: »

I know with my bank I have to drop in stuff like that every few years.

What bank is this that asks for such information after you've closed your account with them?

beauf

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

Ya im thinking its a way of bringing in a national if card they have been trying to do for awhile

People seem to want to get govt services without telling them who they are and magically not make mistakes and stop fraud at the same time. Also be able to report and account for everything down to the last cent and data back for years, on any request.

I love Sean nos

beauf wrote: »

People seem to want to get govt services without telling them who they are

Not true. ID is already a requirement. The same ID that allows entry to the country or drive motorised vehicles in public places.

beauf wrote: »

and magically not make mistakes

Not sure how the new ID card stops SW staff from making mistakes. Actually, not sure how the old forms of ID referred to above stop SW staff making mistakes either.

beauf wrote: »

and stop fraud at the same time.

Not that bothered about SW fraud. It's small potatoes. Credibility on the subject isn't helped by the same fraud measures being reported several times over, similar to school building programmes. And always the same figure is given as the result; €600m.

beauf wrote: »

Also be able to report and account for everything down to the last cent and data back for years, on any request.

Again, don't understand how the new ID card impacts this.

seamus

School Socks wrote: »

Can a former client of the department of social protection demand that the department delete all their personal data (photo copies of passports, utility bills etc) if not what law says they don't have to delete this data ?

What law says they do? That's the pertinent question. Unless you show a law that requires them to delete the data, then they are permitted to hold it.

Data Protection is poorly understood because the nitty-gritty is quite complicated.

This has led to private companies having usually pretty simple rules around data retention, which go above and beyond the requirements of the DPA because it's just easier that way.

Unfortunately this simple approach has created a public perception that data protection is simple and that nobody is allowed to retain any information on you and must delete it when you demand they do so.

You should assume the DSP is permitted to retain your personal data, unless you can find legislation which says that they can't. The DPA contains lots of exceptions and clauses, especially where government and statutory bodies are concerned.

I love Sean nos

Miaireland wrote: »

To be honest I can't see why anyone would object to these being held.

Really? Can't see why anyone would object to having data held on them indefinitely, by an overworked government department no less?

5 minutes on Google should give you enough reasons to reconsider.

beauf

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Not true. ID is already a requirement. The same ID that allows entry to the country or drive motorised vehicles in public places.

Not sure how the new ID card stops SW staff from making mistakes. Actually, not sure how the old forms of ID referred to above stop SW staff making mistakes either.

Not that bothered about SW fraud. It's small potatoes. Credibility on the subject isn't helped by the same fraud measures being reported several times over, similar to school building programmes. And always the same figure is given as the result; €600m.


Again, don't understand how the new ID card impacts this.

I said "...people seem to want..." not that it isn't a currently requirement.

Reporting on data, and data integrity and user error requires cross checking and unique IDs'. No way of doing it without this.

Cross checking with other services often highlights an error with data, either fraudulent or just typo, or just obsolete.

C3PO

School Socks wrote: »

This is the department who's staff sold Delores McNamaras file to the tabloids within 48 hours of her winning the euro millions.

Not the Department .. maybe some individuals within the department!

beauf

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Really? Can't see why anyone would object to having data held on them indefinitely, by an overworked government department no less?

5 minutes on Google should give you enough reasons to reconsider.

Going down the Jack Reacher route is always an option. Living a cash only untraceable existence. But if we are using this forum, then we've voted with our wallets already.

There is a big difference between google and govt services in terms of regulation and accountability.

coylemj

C3PO wrote: »

Not the Department .. maybe some individuals within the department!

Go back and read the quote that you included in your post.

Victor

seamus wrote: »

What law says they do? That's the pertinent question. Unless you show a law that requires them to delete the data, then they are permitted to hold it.

Normal DP rules state you can only hold onto data for an appropriate period.

Social Welfare Acts probably give DSP the right to keep data indefinitely.

I love Sean nos

beauf wrote: »

I said "...people seem to want..." not that it isn't a currently requirement.

Reporting on data, and data integrity and user error requires cross checking and unique IDs'. No way of doing it without this.

Cross checking with other services often highlights an error with data, either fraudulent or just typo, or just obsolete.

What people are these? The OP describes himself as a former user of SW services. Taking him at his word and allowing for some reasonable period of data retention, there's no reason for them to continue to hold data on him. Reporting can still be performed after anonymisation of the data. If fraud is still a concern, and I don't see why it would be, data pseudonymisation is still an option.