Extraordinary circumstances?

sonic85

Hey

I was on holidays for a week in Palma and my flight back was due to depart at 17.10 Saturday evening. There was a problem with the plane and because of this the departure time was continually pushed back. There was no Ryanair representative or indeed anybody to inform the passengers what was happening. Eventually the flight left with a delay of 9 hours and 36 minutes.

I'm hoping to get some compensation for this but I have a question regarding Extraordinary Circumstances - namely what are they? From what I can gather it's circumstances outside the airlines control such as weather conditions or strikes etc. Could an airline use a problem with the aircraft to try wriggle out of a compensation claim? I'm not sure what avenue I can go down if the airline tries to make things difficult.

Thanks!

handlemaster

there is some companies that handle this for you. I have seen where the airlines fight it with there legal jargon and the companies that deal with these claims cut through  that.

handlemaster

there is some companies that handle this for you. I have seen where the airlines fight it with there legal jargon and the companies that deal with these claims cut through  that.

redcup342

https://www.flight-delayed.co.uk/extraordinary-circumstances

The following situations are considered extraordinary:
Industrial action: Strikes by ground staff and/or air traffic control
Adverse weather conditions: Heavy rains, snow, storms etc
Political circumstances: Terror attacks, political unrest, security risks
Illness: Sick crew member or passenger
​Other: Delays caused by the airport staff (long queues during security checks)

The following circumstances are NOT considered extraordinary:
Technical faults
Poor weather on a previous flight which in turn affected your flight (so called knock-on effect)
Denied boarding due to an overbooked flight.

File a claim with Ryanair.
https://contactform.ryanair.com/?cr=eu261&lg=en&id=78&page=EU261-Disruption-Compensation

mahamageehad

There's plenty of templates online and I'd advise trying for compensation yourself first.

I'm currently in the process with an airline - they cancelled my flight and put me on one 24 hours later. Didn't help with hotel or meals, just told us to claim back later. Ground staff couldn't help with rebooking, just gave us a number. As far as I was concerned it was an open and shut case, but last week I got a call accepting the hotel/meal charges but denying compensation. They claimed two grounds- caused by a third party not them, and extraordinary circumstances. Technical faults generally don't count as extraordinary circumstances, and I can't see anything in the legislation that says they get away Scot free because of fault caused by a third party so I sent them a rebuttal yesterday. If that fails, I'll give one of the no win no fee lads a go, but it was easy enough to do the first steps myself, just 2 emails.

sonic85

Thanks for the replies everyone! Yeah I've sent them a couple of emails - one to general customer services who didn't want to know and then I filled out their form. Hopefully I hear something concrete soon but to be honest I'm expecting them to try give me the run around

davo2001

How much compensation are you looking to get? (serious question btw).

sonic85

davo2001 wrote: »

How much compensation are you looking to get? (serious question btw).

Whatever I'm due under Regulation 261/2004.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

mahamageehad

sonic85 wrote: »

Whatever I'm due under Regulation 261/2004.

How much you're entitled to if your flight is delayed
Delay to your arrival Flight distance Amount of compensation
At least three hours Less than 1,500km €250

Between 1,500km and 3,500km €400
More than 1,500km and within the EU €400
Three to four hours More than 3,500km, between an EU and non-EU airport €300
At least four hours More than 3,500km, between an EU and non-EU airport €600

mahamageehad

mahamageehad wrote: »

There's plenty of templates online and I'd advise trying for compensation yourself first.

I'm currently in the process with an airline- they cancelled my flight and put me on one 24 hours later. Didn't help with hotel or meals, just told us to claim back later. Ground staff couldn't help with rebooking, just gave us a number. As far as I was concerned it was an open and shut case, but last week I got a call accepting the hotel/meal charges but denying compensation. They claimed two grounds- caused by a third party not them, and extraordinary circumstances. Technical faults generally don't count as extraordinary circumstances, and I can't see anything in the legislation that says they get away Scot free because of fault caused by a third party so I sent them a rebuttal yesterday. If that fails, I'll give one of the no win no fee lads a go, but it was easy enough to do the first steps myself, just 2 emails.

Update on this, just had a call from the airline awarding me the full compensation I requested (€600) plus reimbursing the hotel and meal costs. The lengthy rebuttal complete with legal ruling references worked.

Before anyone says it, it's not compo culture, you're entitled to it. That extra 24 hour delay meant I missed my weekend and basically had to go straight to the office after I got off the plane.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

mahamageehad

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Well done on persisting with the case. The airlines expect most to fold after the first letter refusing.

Ta but twas hardly much work, just some research. I'm super curious now though, wonder how many of the passengers from that flight even tried to claim, and how many of those stopped after the first no. I'd love to see solid data on how many try to claim, and how many are successful in general. It seems to a an unnecessarily murky process.

Doltanian

mahamageehad wrote: »

Update on this, just had a call from Lufthansa awarding me the full compensation I requested (€600) plus reimbursing the hotel and meal costs. The lengthy rebuttal complete with legal ruling references worked.

Before anyone says it, it's not compo culture, you're entitled to it. That extra 24 hour delay meant I missed my weekend and basically had to go straight to the office after I got off the plane.

Would you mind posting up your own emails as a template whilst removing your own personal details from it. Could help others.

mahamageehad

Doltanian wrote: »

Would you mind posting up your own emails as a template whilst removing your own personal details from it. Could help others.

Initial mail is below. Granted my circumstances were a bit more unusual- they cancelled flight from US after a few notices on the day, and the next flight was 24 hours later. Airport staff weren't able to help with rebooking or hotel, they told us to sort ourselves and gave us a phone number to call for rebooking. Obv you'll need to add your own relevant details to the below, but hopefully that'll be a start for someone.

Hi AIRLINE CUSTOMER SERVICE,

I am writing to you today to claim compensation under EU Regulation 261/2004.
I was due to fly from LOCATION to LOCATION on DATE on flight FLIGHTNUMBER, but my flight was cancelled/delayed. My ticket number was NUMBER, a CLASS ticket. The flight was due to depart at TIME and travel a distance of over NUMBER km. After a number of delays, we were informed that the flight was cancelled.

The airline staff on the ground could provide very little help or information. No hotels or rebooking services were offered, just a phone number for rebooking and a confirmation that the next flight to LOCATION would be 24 hours later. I was eventually able to get through to Customer Service on the phone, and a lovely agent rebooked me on the next flight.

During this 24 hour delay I stayed in the airport hotel and the ground staff informed us that if we could organise our own hotel, we could claim back those expenses. I have receipts for the hotel, as well as dinner and breakfast at the hotel attached, amounting to a total of AMOUNT. Article 9 of the same EU Regulation states that airlines have a duty of care to provide meals and refreshments in relation to waiting time, plus a hotel stay if overnight accommodation is required.

Please let me know if there is any more information I need to provide, and what the next steps are.

I thank you for your assistance with this and await your response.
Yours faithfully,

NAME

When I got the call telling me that hotel/meal costs were approved for reimbursement, but not the compensation due to third party involvement and extraordinary circumstance, this was the mail I sent. Oh and in this case, the only reason for the extraordinary circumstances I was given at the airport/from the rep was "damage to the plane".

Good evening,

I am writing to follow up on feedback ticket ID NUMBER.

I received a call last week from NAME at AIRLINE informing me that the hotel expense claim was successful. I appreciate that this was followed up on so promptly.

NAME also stated in the same call that my compensation claim was unsuccessful.
He stated that there were two reasons for this - the delay was caused by a third party, and the delay was caused by an exceptional circumstance.

On examination of the regulation, I cannot find any clause that would remove AIRLINE's obligation to pay compensation in the case of delay caused by a third party, unless that delay falls into the category of "extraordinary circumstances" such as a strike. My understanding of Article 13 of the legislation is that compensation would be paid out by AIRLINE, and AIRLINE can then attempt to claim that expense back from the third party that caused the delay.

With respect to the exceptional circumstances claim, can you please provide a written statement detailing the exceptional circumstances? The only explanation that I was given at the airport was REASON. ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ are events like those listed in the preamble to the Regulation, such as political instability, meteorological conditions, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings, as well as strikes. It is essential that such events are not inherent in the normal activity of air carriers and that they are beyond the actual control of the carrier due to its nature or origin. The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) issued an order in the Case C-394/14 (Sandy Siewert v Condor Flugdienst GmbH) on 14 November 2014 which clarified the notion of extraordinary circumstances and stated that the collision of mobile boarding stairs with the aircraft (for example) cannot be considered as "extraordinary circumstances" which exempt the air carrier from the obligation of compensation as this is an event inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier.

Based on the above, I am resubmitting my claim for compensation of AMOUNT under the EU 261/2004 Regulation.
I look forward to hearing from you and would welcome a written response within 7 days.

Kindest regards,

NAME

smurfjed

The airlines have insurance against such issues

Are you sure about this? 
I always thought that this rule was extremely unfair against the airline, if anything they should pay a % of your ticket cost.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

grogi

sonic85 wrote: »

Hey

I was on holidays for a week in Palma and my flight back was due to depart at 17.10 Saturday evening. There was a problem with the plane and because of this the departure time was continually pushed back. There was no Ryanair representative or indeed anybody to inform the passengers what was happening. Eventually the flight left with a delay of 9 hours and 36 minutes.

I'm hoping to get some compensation for this but I have a question regarding Extraordinary Circumstances - namely what are they? From what I can gather it's circumstances outside the airlines control such as weather conditions or strikes etc. Could an airline use a problem with the aircraft to try wriggle out of a compensation claim? I'm not sure what avenue I can go down if the airline tries to make things difficult.

Thanks!

War, Weather, Strike (but not of Ryanair staff), Airport Closure...

Technical fault does qualify for eu261

killbillvol2

smurfjed wrote: »

Are you sure about this? 
I always thought that this rule was extremely unfair against the airline, if anything they should pay a % of your ticket cost.

I'm sort of with you on this.

In January I was flying from Bangkok to Dublin via Helsinki with Finnair. We were late departing and I missed the connection. In fairness they had rerouted me through Heathrow while we were still in the air and I had lounge access so it wasn't a hardship but I landed in Dublin about 5 hours later than scheduled.

In April the same thing, this time coming from Beijing.

I haven't claimed and am not inclined to but I had an interesting conversation with another passenger who'd missed a number of connections in the same period. His take on it was that Finnair are running very tight connections from Asia through HEL but rarely delay a departing aircraft for passengers. In both of my examples the Dublin flight hadn't left. A 15 minute delay would probably have got connecting passengers on board. His opinion was that a number of claims would make them more proactive in managing connections.

Just my 2c!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

smurfjed

EU 261 is one of the best things the EU ever did for it's citizens.

And for Ryanair..... with 131 million passengers at 2 euro each, thats a nice earner.

grogi

Fred Swanson wrote: »

EU 261 is one of the best things the EU ever did for it's citizens.

Not to drag it sideways, but EU261, roaming rules, consumer protection etc...

EU does a lot, but majority is not obvious nor immediately seen.

mahamageehad

Fred Swanson wrote: »

As far as I am concerned it is the cost of doing business. Ryanair even have a EU 261 fee on every ticket.

If an airline wants to operate tight connections, that is their choice. If the business model works, yay! If it doesn't work they have to accept the consequences. Why should the passenger who has no hand in this suffer because of the actions of the airline?

EU 261 is one of the best things the EU ever did for it's citizens.

Fully agreed. I believe EU 261 is even to be expanded. To be honest, I've often been delayed on flights and this is the first time I've claimed under EU 261. The way it was handled on the ground, plus the length of the delay, really annoyed me so I looked into it. It's defo the cost of doing business, especially when all the emphasis is on the customer to claim. I don't see it as unfair at all.

Interesting point though about increased claims forcing airlines to review connections, I'll take that into consideration next time.