Does neighbor have rights?

368100

We have an issue at the minute where myself and my brother are building houses on family land.

There's a freshwater spring on the land which we intend using for our water. Currently it supplies water to a neighbour. Theres no mains supply on the road so only alternative is to sink a well, which most other houses have done.

This situation started about 40 years ago where this neighbour asked my dad if he could take a water supply from it as an overflow to whatever we needed but over the years he has changed the layoutime without permission to ensure his house has priority for water.

This guy is a bit of a bully, when we started digging it muddied the water and he arrived at my dad's door and gave him awful abuse over it. He's also threatened to report the house building to the council (he has no basis for this).

We recently changed the layout back to where he has overflow to ours...he went mad. When my dad tried to tell him why it was done, he just shouted shut the f*** up...very aggressive and confrontational.... my brothers and I had to step in to stop punches being thrown.

He left saying he was reporting to the guards. Our intention is to issue a solicitors letter giving him appropriate notice before we disconnect his supply.

What are your opinions regarding any legal rights he may have considering how long hes been connected? He has no right of way or wayleave over our land.

Neon_Lights

Mod; offensive remark deleted. Pls do not post again on LD for at least a month

CeilingFly

Well he shows his utter stupidity and ignorance by saying "going to the guards"

Gardai will tell him to go away

hullaballoo

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Take a ****e on his bonnet, he'll shut up then

Astounding acuity of analysis of the relevant law right there.

jimmycrackcorm

368100 wrote:

We recently changed the layout back to where he has overflow to ours...he went mad. When my dad tried to tell him why it was done, he just shouted shut the f*** up...very aggressive and confrontational.... my brothers and I had to step in to stop punches being thrown.

So he still gets water, but not as much as he is expecting. He can't really do much about it as you'd be entitled to take your own water in any case. Even if he wanted to take done sort of legal action it would be cheaper to drill a well.

Report him to the guards for the harassment to stop him doing that again.

368100

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So he still gets water, but not as much as he is expecting. He can't really do much about it as you'd be entitled to take your own water in any case. Even if he wanted to take done sort of legal action it would be cheaper to drill a well.

Report him to the guards for the harassment to stop him doing that again.

He still gets it until our solicitor issues a letter the notice we give him expires...then he'll be cut off. I'd prefer no fighting over the whole thing but it looks like its unavoidable. The bit that I'm mad about is him having the cheek to give abuse when he's had free maintained water for 40 years.

NinetyTwoTeam

I don't see why you even need to issue a letter, the spring is on your land. He put paid to any common courtesy being used with his behaviour, I'd cut it off and if he comes near the house, don't open the door, report him for trespassing and harassment if he doesn't go away.

368100

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

I don't see why you even need to issue a letter, the spring is on your land. He put paid to any common courtesy being used with his behaviour, I'd cut it off and if he comes near the house, don't open the door, report him for trespassing and harassment if he doesn't go away.

Thanks....I'd say you're right but we just wanted to cover our bases and have it formally recorded that we gave him notice.

Victor

The property owner (your father?) really needs to talk to a solicitor about the specific facts.

Solicitor might also mention the matter of threats.

368100 wrote: »

This situation started about 40 years ago

This comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial - I understand the relevant timeframe is 20 years.

368100

Victor wrote: »

The property owner (your father?) really needs to talk to a solicitor about the specific facts.

Solicitor might also mention the matter of threats.This comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial - I understand the relevant timeframe is 20 years.

Thanks....that's the sort of thing I'd be worried about that he has a right given its going on so long. My father is going to see the solicitor about it and also to sign the land over to us. He thought he was doing a favour all those years ago but has had nothing but trouble from him in the last few years. He's 80 so could be doing without all the aggro.

snowflaker

the right to a u!

nuac

Mod
Leaving this open for general discussion, subject to rule about legal advice

littelady

Have you got your planning permission? If not your neighbour will object. If you have planning f him cheeck of him.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

368100

littelady wrote: »

Have you got your planning permission? If not your neighbour will object. If you have planning f him cheeck of him.

Yes I have planning permission so that's not a concern.

littelady

In that case turn off the water,let him ask politly for it back. Honestly some people.

368100

littelady wrote: »

In that case turn off the water,let him ask politly for it back. Honestly some people.

Politeness isn't in his vocabulary....in any case there's only enough supply for our houses so we won't be turning it back on unless it goes to court and is found in his favour. In that case one of us will need to sink a well, putting us to extra expense while he is supplied with water from our land.

Arpa

368100

Arpa wrote: »

I don't get it

Squatter

368100 wrote: »

I don't get it

You need to watch the film, or ideally both of them!

Jean de Florette / Manon des Sources.

Water John

I would not cut him off without due notice. As it is an essential service, a court would look poorly on that, probably.
Outline, via sol, that your use will increase and you don't see their being any surplus being available, beyond a certain date. No further discussion.

368100

Water John wrote: »

I would not cut him off without due notice. As it is an essential service, a court would look poorly on that, probably.
Outline, via sol, that your use will increase and you don't see their being any surplus being available, beyond a certain date. No further discussion.

That's exactly the approach we intend....along with that he should communicate through the solicitor as we don't want him coming to the house to give more abuse....and that he can't trespass on the land after the notice expires.

C3PO

I would definitely take legal advice on this - my worry is that he might have accumulated "rights" over a 40 year period.
Ideally it would be nice not to have an acrimonious relationship with a long term neighbour too!

368100

368100 wrote: »

I don't get it

Top class films - a man from the city inherits a small farm in the south of France which he knows has a spring on it.

Neighbours want the land (+the water) so block it up before he arrives to stop the water flowing and then slowly drive him mad.

NUTLEY BOY

Irrespective of what happens next, the neighbour's hostile visit really should be reported to Gardaí. If this turns in to a nasty neighbour dispute it is always useful to have a record of reported events. Every time he shows up or does something similar ask him to leave and report him if he does not. If it happens in public report that too.

There is nothing here that requires personal attendance by the neighbour to deal with the issue. It can be dealt with by letter.

I wonder if the neighbour has acquired rights to abstract water from OP's lands and if that right has not been reinforced by passage of time. If it was a bare licence to abstract water OP would be on stronger ground. I take it that the arrangement to abstract water was never reduced to writing as, if it was, that would sort out a lot.

If a compromise agreement is reached - and the possibility may well be necessary - be sure that it is reduced to a written agreement.

NUTLEY BOY

littelady wrote: »

In that case turn off the water,let him ask politly for it back. Honestly some people.

If the neighbour decides to initiate legal proceedings in this matter could he apply for an interim injunction ordering restoration and maintenance of supply pending trial of the principal issue ?

Mr. Incognito

Send him a solicitors letter letting him know that you will be billing him for fair usage.

If he doesnt pay that then you can cut him off.

It's on your land it's your water

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Squatter

368100 wrote: »

That's exactly the approach we intend....along with that he should communicate through the solicitor as we don't want him coming to the house to give more abuse....and that he can't trespass on the land after the notice expires.

Why not have a read of this?

http://igi.ie/assets/files/Groundwater%20and%20Sustainable%20Development/YvonneScannell_LegalIssues.pdf

[Disclaimer - I found it on the web - I am not connected to its author.]

Water John

Have not read that in full. It's interesting. As the OP is taking about a spring well, this is not underground water.

Marcusm

Did it not come up during the planning process?

Victor

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Could the OP's father get an ex parte injunction to prevent trespass? :pac:

Del2005

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Send him a solicitors letter letting him know that you will be billing him for fair usage.

If he doesnt pay that then you can cut him off.

It's on your land it's your water

Since it's illegal to disconnect someone from a mains water supply I cannot see how it's legal to cut off a non mains water supply.

My land and water, being a tax paying citizen I assume I have a stake in everything that the government controls, was continuously provided to people who refused to pay Irish Water. A landlord cannot disconnect a non paying tenant from water and since the OP has been providing free water for 40 years I can only see this being expensive.

Marcusm

Del2005 wrote: »

Since it's illegal to disconnect someone from a mains water supply I cannot see how it's legal to cut off a non mains water supply.

My land and water, being a tax paying citizen I assume I have a stake in everything that the government controls, was continuously provided to people who refused to pay Irish Water. A landlord cannot disconnect a non paying tenant from water and since the OP has been providing free water for 40 years I can only see this being expensive.

It's an interesting point but I suspect there is quite a difference between IW cutting off (as opposed to curtailing) a water supply and the termination of a no cost agreement whereby a neighbour has graciously permitted someone to draw water from their land rather than put them to the expense of obtaining their own supply. It may be that the arrangement has been formally documented or the neighbour has acquitted rights through passage of time but I would be surprised, given the peculiarity of the circumstances. It is not as if he is denied access to all potential supplies of water - such as if he was landlocked and needed access across neighbouring lands to enter his home. There is no requirement for him to obtain water from his neighbour, he could sink his own well.

Del2005

Marcusm wrote: »

It's an interesting point but I suspect there is quite a difference between IW cutting off (as opposed to curtailing) a water supply and the termination of a no cost agreement whereby a neighbour has graciously permitted someone to draw water from their land rather than put them to the expense of obtaining their own supply. It may be that the arrangement has been formally documented or the neighbour has acquitted rights through passage of time but I would be surprised, given the peculiarity of the circumstances. It is not as if he is denied access to all potential supplies of water - such as if he was landlocked and needed access across neighbouring lands to enter his home. There is no requirement for him to obtain water from his neighbour, he could sink his own well.

I know a landlord who cut off a non paying tenant pre Irish Water in Dublin, the tenant had the council out straight away to reconnect them. So not paying for water doesn't mean that you can cut off a persons water supply, especially after 40 years. Which is why I said it's going to be expensive!

evolving_doors

Does the father have an obligation to supply neighbour with unlimited clean water?

Maybe the water is becoming muddy due to natural subsidence or something... or maybe it is due to exploration. Why should the burden fall to the father to ensure an unlimited clean supply?

Marcusm

Del2005 wrote: »

I know a landlord who cut off a non paying tenant pre Irish Water in Dublin, the tenant had the council out straight away to reconnect them. So not paying for water doesn't mean that you can cut off a persons water supply, especially after 40 years. Which is why I said it's going to be expensive!

In that case, the landlord likely interfered with the piping etc which is owned by the council and generally the stopcock is on public/local authority land. There are prohibitions on interfering with a public water supply which likely don't apply to a private supply.

368100

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Irrespective of what happens next, the neighbour's hostile visit really should be reported to Gardaí. If this turns in to a nasty neighbour dispute it is always useful to have a record of reported events. Every time he shows up or does something similar ask him to leave and report him if he does not. If it happens in public report that too.

There is nothing here that requires personal attendance by the neighbour to deal with the issue. It can be dealt with by letter.

I wonder if the neighbour has acquired rights to abstract water from OP's lands and if that right has not been reinforced by passage of time. If it was a bare licence to abstract water OP would be on stronger ground. I take it that the arrangement to abstract water was never reduced to writing as, if it was, that would sort out a lot.

If a compromise agreement is reached - and the possibility may well be necessary - be sure that it is reduced to a written agreement.

Thanks for the post. I am recording all contact with him from now on and will report immediately if he is abusive again.

There was no written agreement in place so that should put us in stronger footing.

We met with solicitor yesterday who is drafting a letter to give 3 months notice so he can make alterative arrangements. Solicitor didn't go into detail but he mentioned the neighbour may claim squatter's rights. Now in fairless we sprung the topic on the solicitor as we were in over something else so he hadn't a chance to research but from my reading on squatter's rights, he must have excluded us from use of the land for 12 years.....we've had building works ongoing on it over the last 12 months so I hope that this satisfies that we were not excluded from use in case he does try and claim that. Solicitor didn't mention riparian rights but again, he hadn't much chance to research.

368100

Squatter wrote: »

Why not have a read of this?

http://igi.ie/assets/files/Groundwater%20and%20Sustainable%20Development/YvonneScannell_LegalIssues.pdf

[Disclaimer - I found it on the web - I am not connected to its author.]

Thank.....I believe the spring in question would fall under definition of percolating water

368100

Marcusm wrote: »

Did it not come up during the planning process?

No. He didn't object to planning. He's just threatened to report the build to council post permission being granted. I don't know what basis he would use as we're within the permission granted.

368100

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Does the father have an obligation to supply neighbour with unlimited clean water?

Maybe the water is becoming muddy due to natural subsidence or something... or maybe it is due to exploration. Why should the burden fall to the father to ensure an unlimited clean supply?

The water muddied for a short while due to our building. Lasted a few days max until it ran clean again

Victor

368100 wrote: »

There was no written agreement in place so that should put us in stronger footing.

A written agreement would give a large degree of certainty. Absence of a written agreement means that legal concepts other than such an agreement can come in to play.

368100

Victor wrote: »

A written agreement would give a large degree of certainty. Absence of a written agreement means that legal concepts other than such an agreement can come in to play.

Would you have any examples of the other legal concepts?

Victor

368100 wrote: »

Would you have any examples of the other legal concepts?

The suggested 'squatters rights', although I'm not sure it applies.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Cupatae

368100 wrote: »

We have an issue at the minute where myself and my brother are building houses on family land.

There's a freshwater spring on the land which we intend using for our water. Currently it supplies water to a neighbour. Theres no mains supply on the road so only alternative is to sink a well, which most other houses have done.

This situation started about 40 years ago where this neighbour asked my dad if he could take a water supply from it as an overflow to whatever we needed but over the years he has changed the layoutime without permission to ensure his house has priority for water.

This guy is a bit of a bully, when we started digging it muddied the water and he arrived at my dad's door and gave him awful abuse over it. He's also threatened to report the house building to the council (he has no basis for this).

We recently changed the layout back to where he has overflow to ours...he went mad. When my dad tried to tell him why it was done, he just shouted shut the f*** up...very aggressive and confrontational.... my brothers and I had to step in to stop punches being thrown.

He left saying he was reporting to the guards. Our intention is to issue a solicitors letter giving him appropriate notice before we disconnect his supply.

What are your opinions regarding any legal rights he may have considering how long hes been connected? He has no right of way or wayleave over our land.

Is there no way you can come to a compromise? Maybe let him keep his water supply and u get some too? As much as i love to stick it to people like him.. ive found when dealing with neighbours like that its best to keep em sweet as much as possible,

Otherwise what will happen with someone like that is anytime an issuse pops up he ll make life as difficult as possible and battle lines will be drawn everytime since ull have one up on him.

If its not possible to keep both of ye going at the end of the day you ve to do for your own first and its your land id cut him off no apologies given.

368100

Cupatae wrote: »

Is there no way you can come to a compromise? Maybe let him keep his water supply and u get some too? As much as i love to stick it to people like him.. ive found when dealing with neighbours like that its best to keep em sweet as much as possible,

Otherwise what will happen with someone like that is anytime an issuse pops up he ll make life as difficult as possible and battle lines will be drawn everytime since ull have one up on him.

If its not possible to keep both of ye going at the end of the day you ve to do for your own first and its your land id cut him off no apologies given.

As I said, I'm not one for arguing over stuff like this as it would make life easier to get on with neighbours but when it comes down to it theres simply not enough water to service three houses (we're building two to come from the supply).

But I do have to be honest, I would get a little bit of satisfaction from handling the situation like this as he's nothing but a bully....always really has been. Before my time but i dont know why my dad ever let him near, I guess he wasn't using it and was being nice but very much regrets it now.

To add a little flavour to his character, his brother in law lives the other side of him, they don't get on. The brother in law put up a security floodlight at one stage which partly shone in his window and he arrived at his door with a shotgun demanding it be taken down, which it was. There's also allegations of more serious stuff that I won't post here.

That's why guards need to be very much involved here.

the_pen_turner

in defence of him slightly. if someone put up a floodlight shining in my window it wouldn't be working for long. it would have to have an accident



what kind of water source is it. could you did a hole there to give it more capacity . even for yourself you don't want to be short on water

Cupatae

368100 wrote: »

As I said, I'm not one for arguing over stuff like this as it would make life easier to get on with neighbours but when it comes down to it theres simply not enough water to service three houses (we're building two to come from the supply).

But I do have to be honest, I would get a little bit of satisfaction from handling the situation like this as he's nothing but a bully....always really has been. Before my time but i dont know why my dad ever let him near, I guess he wasn't using it and was being nice but very much regrets it now.

To add a little flavour to his character, his brother in law lives the other side of him, they don't get on. The brother in law put up a security floodlight at one stage which partly shone in his window and he arrived at his door with a shotgun demanding it be taken down, which it was. There's also allegations of more serious stuff that I won't post here.

That's why guards need to be very much involved here.

Ahh i know the type i wouldnt blame yyeah for getting the boot in! but will it be worth it? someone like that will always be petty and go tit for tat, if it was me id do my best to avoid it just cause having a neighbour like that is headwrecking but if its unavoidable, its toughMod deletion[/B for him, doesnt sound to me like his a leg to stand on.. outside of him being a Mod deletion] tho i can see why he d be mad after having that set up for 40 years all of a sudden taken away.

Mod
Your posting style here is not our cup of tea. Pls be nice

368100

the_pen_turner wrote: »

in defence of him slightly. if someone put up a floodlight shining in my window it wouldn't be working for long. it would have to have an accident



what kind of water source is it. could you did a hole there to give it more capacity . even for yourself you don't want to be short on water

Without a conversation try and sort it? In my opinion there's no defence of someone who uses a shotgun to get their way over something like that....sign of being unhinged.

It's a natural spring, which comes to surface on its own. No way of increasing capacity....only having a suitable tank will ensure there's enough which is not ideal to have a tank too big for drinking water as it could sit and become stangnant. Amount of water fluctuates a lot too depending on rainfall as it's at the Base of a mountain.

Victor

368100 wrote: »

It's a natural spring, which comes to surface on its own. No way of increasing capacity....only having a suitable tank will ensure there's enough which is not ideal to have a tank too big for drinking water as it could sit and become stangnant.

This can be catered for by drawing direct from the spring to the under-sink filter / steriliser in the kitchen. Any excess can then be stored.