VRT - Penalty on cars with low mileage?

d.m.g

Hey - quick question, does anyone know if there's a penalty on cars with low mileage when paying your vrt?
I got a 162, only 2k miles, and have booked VRT for Saturday, but want to know roughly how much to bring, and have been told there's a penalty - cant see anything on their website though.
Thanks.

grogi

d.m.g wrote: »

Hey - quick question, does anyone know if there's a penalty on cars with low mileage when paying your vrt?
I got a 162, only 2k miles, and have booked VRT for Saturday, but want to know roughly how much to bring, and have been told there's a penalty - cant see anything on their website though.
Thanks.

No, but you'll need to pay VAT too. Better drive 4000km before the VRT inspection

bazz26

No penalty but it will be deemed a brand new car by Revenue and you will be charged VAT as well as VRT.

The Revenue rule is that any car with less than 6000 km or less than 6 months old is deemed as a brand new vehicle.

Cienciano

Bring your wallet.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/coming_to_live_in_ireland/importing_car_into_ireland.html#la6a26

Always try and get something with more than 6000km. I know lads that got stuff with just over 5000km and they toured around for a bit to get it over 6.

XsApollo

What car is it?
This could be expensive.

d.m.g

Thanks guys - christ that's mad - looks like ill have to do a few runs from Belfast to Cork and back.....

grogi

d.m.g wrote: »

Thanks guys - christ that's mad - looks like ill have to do a few runs from Belfast to Cork and back.....

Secure the car, lift the front, put fifth gear and slight touch on the throttle... You should be able to do more than 1000 on one tank, with average of 160 or so...

Cienciano

I know someone who bought a motorcycle in england which was under 6000km. He bought a second clock for it which read 32,000 miles.

Atlantic Dawn

23% VAT will make a huge difference. Any idea of the costs of adding 3000 miles on the car in fuel?

grogi

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

23% VAT will make a huge difference. Any idea of the costs of adding 3000 miles on the car in fuel?

In 1.2 swift? 48 *6* 1.3 ~= 380

dbagman

d.m.g wrote:

Thanks guys - christ that's mad - looks like ill have to do a few runs from Belfast to Cork and back.....

You could get the clock altered. Or buy a set of clocks from a crashed yolk and change them out.

Toyotafanboi

Is it not 6 months or 6000kms, once either is exceeded it's no longer deemed as "new".

So even though there is only 2k on it, it's over 6 months old, so only VRT applies.

bazz26

My understanding is that having either one qualifies for VAT liability.

bmwguy

It has to satisfy both conditions. It gives an example in the link a few posts back of a 7 month old car with 5000km. VAT payable.

This is the same one they will get you on. It's 23% VAT so get some miles on that clock ASAP.

grogi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Is it not 6 months or 6000kms, once either is exceeded it's no longer deemed as "new".

So even though there is only 2k on it, it's over 6 months old, so only VRT applies.

My understanding is opposite - if it has 6000km or less OR less than 6 months.

billy few mates

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Is it not 6 months or 6000kms, once either is exceeded it's no longer deemed as "new".

So even though there is only 2k on it, it's over 6 months old, so only VRT applies.

That's what I thought, I'm looking at buying a car from the north and it has only 2000 miles on it but it's over six months old.

CiniO

Obviously if VAT is to be paid in Ireland, then UK VAT can be claimed back.
There's can't be a situation in EU that VAT is paid twice in two countries on the same item.

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

Obviously if VAT is to be paid in Ireland, then UK VAT can be claimed back.
There's can't be a situation in EU that VAT is paid twice in two countries on the same item.

There are cases where no VAT is paid - the states need to get the money from somewhere - thus double VAT taxation... /s

But in fairness - not only UK VAT is lower (20% vs 23%), it is always a hassle... Not sure what is bigger - driving 4000km in 3 days or claiming it back from HMRC tough.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Have you actually tried the VRT calculator and what did it tell you? The age and mileage are entered so you should get a fairly accurate figure for the VRT...

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Obviously if VAT is to be paid in Ireland, then UK VAT can be claimed back.
There's can't be a situation in EU that VAT is paid twice in two countries on the same item.

It's not that simple; second hand cars can be a minefield for VAT if they are "non VAT qualifying" meaning having been owned by a private individual. In those circumstances, if bought for export from a dealer, the only recoverable UK VAT is likely to be on the dealer's margin. That notwithstanding, full Irish VAT would be due.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Buffman

d.m.g wrote: »

I got a 162, only 2k miles, and have booked VRT for Saturday, but want to know roughly how much to bring, and have been told there's a penalty - cant see anything on their website though.

I think Section 30 on page 16 of this is the bit that covers your situation.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

The Citizens information link that was posted earlier summarised it.

If you are importing a new car from another EU country you have to pay VAT (Value Added Tax), usually when registering the car. A new car means a car that has been in service for 6 months or less, or has been driven for 6,000 kilometres or less. For example:

• Vehicle is 5 months old with 8,000km - chargeable to VAT
• Vehicle is 7 months old with 5,000km - chargeable to VAT
• Vehicle is 7 months old with 8,000km - not chargeable to VAT

The VAT is payable even where you have paid VAT in the other country.

So you're around 3200km now (2k miles), so need to do around 2800km before Saturday. Sounds like a story line from Smokey and the Bandit, but I'm assuming you don't have Burt Reynolds on call.

d.m.g wrote: »

Thanks guys - christ that's mad - looks like ill have to do a few runs from Belfast to Cork and back.....

I'd pick a non-toll motorway like the M9. Rough calculations would say 13ish 'laps' (at around 220km each return from Kilcullen Junction to N25 roundabout) would do you at about two hours each.

Alternatively, if your speedo is linked to your driving wheels, you could do put it on stands and 'drive' it at speed without going anywhere. I wouldn't recommend that on a brand new engine though, and there's the potential for a Ferris Bueller Ferrari type accident.:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Nunm3Sbzo

grogi

Buffman wrote: »

Alternatively, if your speedo is linked to your driving wheels,

And where else?!

you could do put it on stands and 'drive' it at speed without going anywhere. I wouldn't recommend that on a brand new engine though, and there's the potential for a Ferris Bueller Ferrari type accident.:D

Or more recent Rory Reid incident. But that would be much cheaper and faster - when the car is lifted it can easily be doing 150kmh average...

Buffman

Originally Posted by Buffman
Alternatively, if your speedo is linked to your driving wheels,

grogi wrote: »

And where else?!

Ye, I should have been clearer and said only the driving wheels. Without researching the specifics of this particular models speedo, ABS, TSC etc., there may be issues with error codes and warnings if each wheel has a speed sensor and there is a massive difference in readings for a long period.

Sometimes happens with rolling roads and depending on manufacturer, often fixes itself or error codes are easily cleared but some ABS ECUs may require codes to be cleared via OBD, so worth bearing in mind.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Change your VRT date online to a date in a week or two and clock up the miles in that time. I changed my date twice because things kept coming up that I couldn't change.

I wouldnt try the car wheels of the ground method. The engine wouldn't be long overheating as there is no moving air circulating through the radiator.

If you done Dublin > Belfast > Dublin > Cork> Dublin a few times you'd clock up the necessary mileage quite easily.

grogi

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

The engine wouldn't be long overheating as there is no moving air circulating through the radiator.

That's what the radiator fan is for...

Galway_guy_33

Hi OP and everyone else...

Ive had first hand experience of this exact situation... my car was 7 months old with 4000 miles on the clock.... bad news im afraid i had to pay irish vat and the vrt.

Once i paid both of the above i sent proof that i paid the vat to the car dealer in northern Ireland and a few days later i got a cheque in the post for the uk vat amount. It was much faster than i expected.

All in all it worked out a few hundred more expensive than i planned... this was on a car worth 18k gbp vat inc.

Hope this helps.

michellie

Galway_guy_33 wrote: »

Hi OP and everyone else...

Ive had first hand experience of this exact situation... my car was 7 months old with 4000 miles on the clock.... bad news im afraid i had to pay irish vat and the vrt.

Once i paid both of the above i sent proof that i paid the vat to the car dealer in northern Ireland and a few days later i got a cheque in the post for the uk vat amount. It was much faster than i expected.

All in all it worked out a few hundred more expensive than i planned... this was on a car worth 18k gbp vat inc.

Hope this helps.

4000 miles ? Do you mean 4000 km?

michellie

testicles wrote: »

It doesn't take VAT in to account?

The calculator doesn't take VAT into account.

Galway_guy_33

michellie wrote: »

4000 miles ? Do you mean 4000 km?

This was in 2008.... it was miles

Its both conditions u need to comply with... i got some bad advice from this very site at the time... telling me u only had to comply with one condition.... had i known i cld have clocked up 2k miles before going in.

Once i got in to the vrt office she stamped my v5c cert with the date so i couldnt come back again later when i had more mileage up.

So be careful.

michellie

Galway_guy_33 wrote: »

This was in 2008.... it was miles

Its both conditions u need to comply with... i got some bad advice from this very site at the time... telling me u only had to comply with one condition.... had i known i cld have clocked up 2k miles before going in.

Once i got in to the vrt office she stamped my v5c cert with the date so i couldnt come back again later when i had more mileage up.

So be careful.

Yea it's been 6000km/3728m and 6 months old since 2010 anyway. Not sure when it changed between 2008 and then.

Marcusm

d.m.g wrote: »

Thanks guys - christ that's mad - looks like ill have to do a few runs from Belfast to Cork and back.....

Check your invoice; it'll likely have the mileage on it and this might be questioned at NCTS. It's not the mileage at te point of registration but the mileage at the point of crossing the border after you bought it. If the mileage is on the invoice, your position will be difficult.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

mel.b

I recently purchased a car from the UK - just over 6mths old, but less than 6000km done. I drove it up to over the 6000km by the time of the VRT appt and no problem. The invoice also had the original mileage on it. As long as it is 6mths+ and has over 6000km done by the time of the appt you're fine. If you can, change the date of the appt to give you time to clock up the kms.

Marcusm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That may be your experience but I don't think we're supposed to blatantly suggest the falsification of documents!

Marcusm

mel.b wrote: »

I recently purchased a car from the UK - just over 6mths old, but less than 6000km done. I drove it up to over the 6000km by the time of the VRT appt and no problem. The invoice also had the original mileage on it. As long as it is 6mths+ and has over 6000km done by the time of the appt you're fine. If you can, change the date of the appt to give you time to clock up the kms.

You got away with it; doesn't mean the tax wasn't due and doesn't mean it won't be noticed in other situations.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

bazz26

OP hasn't been back since, must be out and about racking up the miles.

Buffman

Marcusm wrote: »

Check your invoice; it'll likely have the mileage on it and this might be questioned at NCTS. It's not the mileage at te point of registration but the mileage at the point of crossing the border after you bought it. If the mileage is on the invoice, your position will be difficult.

I've read contradictory information from official sources on that point, so I didn't bring it up in my previous post. If it became an issue, I'd ask Revenue to read their own VRT manuals.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/vehicle-registration-tax/vrt-manual-section-01.pdf

1.5 Declaration and Payment of VAT for New and Used Vehicles
VAT as assessed by Revenue will be collected at NCTS centres, on registration of vehicles (where applicable) on Revenue’s behalf. VAT will be charged on the purchase price declared on the invoice for the vehicle. For VAT purposes a “new means of transport” is a goods or passenger vehicle that meets either one of the two following criteria:
It is a new means of transport if it is a motor vehicle or motor-cycle (other than a tractor) supplied six months or less after the date of its first entry into service;
It is a new means of transport if it is a motor vehicle or motor-cycle (other than a tractor) that has travelled 6,000 kilometres or less at the time the vehicle is first presented for registration.
If the vehicle meets either of these criteria the vehicle is treated as a new means of transport for VAT purposes, and VAT is chargeable at registration. In this context "entry into service" means registration in another jurisdiction. If not previously registered the vehicle is new.
Example
Vehicle 5 months old with 8,000km - chargeable to VAT
Vehicle 7 months old with 5,000km - chargeable to VAT
Vehicle 7 months old with 8,000km - not chargeable to VAT

The date of a vehicle's first entry into service, i.e. the registration date, determines the age of the vehicle for VAT purposes.
The mileage is the odometer mileage when first presented for registration in the State.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

Also,the point at which the 6000kms is calculated is the date it arrives in this State and not the mileage given on the invoice when the vehicle was purchased in the UK/NI.

Given that there is no way in the current system to actually prove what the mileage was when it entered the state, I don't think they'd have a legal way to charge you VAT based on that reading.

Also, the only information required on an invoice appears to be the date, so mileage can be deleted. There doesn't appear to be a requirement for any mileage related documentation at all.

3. An invoice which must have the date of purchase/sale clearly indicated.

amber2

Cleared a car Tuesday granted it wasn't 2016 but they didn't even check the mileage just the chassis number.

Marcusm

Buffman wrote: »

I've read contradictory information from official sources on that point, so I didn't bring it up in my previous post. If it became an issue, I'd ask Revenue to read their own VRT manuals.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/vehicle-registration-tax/vrt-manual-section-01.pdf

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

Given that there is no way in the current system to actually prove what the mileage was when it entered the state, I don't think they'd have a legal way to charge you VAT based on that reading.

Also, the only information required on an invoice appears to be the date, so mileage can be deleted. There doesn't appear to be a requirement for any mileage related documentation at all.

The manual is a statement of practice which is not a comprehensive statement of the law. The Skatteverket case would be authority for the proposition that the tax point arises at acquisition (i.e. The UK) provided the destination is known at that stage. The running up of mileage between acquisition and registration can almost certainly be disregarded. The running up of mileage post importation must absolutely be disregarded. Revenue, in relying on NCTS inspection to capture the data, is failing to apply the law strictly.

grogi

Marcusm wrote: »

The manual is a statement of practice which is not a comprehensive statement of the law. The Skatteverket case would be authority for the proposition that the tax point arises at acquisition (i.e. The UK) provided the destination is known at that stage. The running up of mileage between acquisition and registration can almost certainly be disregarded. The running up of mileage post importation must absolutely be disregarded. Revenue, in relying on NCTS inspection to capture the data, is failing to apply the law strictly.

There is no practical way of determining the mileage at the moment of importation. Reading it during the VRT inspection is the closest thing...

Marcusm

grogi wrote: »

There is no practical way of determining the mileage at the moment of importation. Reading it during the VRT inspection is the closest thing...

Having looked into it further, if it's purchased in the EU for definite export to another member state then it's actually the mileage at the point of sale - which will be recorded on the invoice - irrespective of what's driven up crossing borders etc. This is used to facilitate the VAT zero rating or recovery in the country of acquisition.

Buffman

Marcusm wrote: »

Having looked into it further, if it's purchased in the EU for definite export to another member state then it's actually the mileage at the point of sale - which will be recorded on the invoice.

Is there a legal requirement for an invoice to record mileage?

michellie

amber2 wrote: »

Cleared a car Tuesday granted it wasn't 2016 but they didn't even check the mileage just the chassis number.

They definatly did. And you would see the mileage on the declaration you signed and your registration receipt.

Marcusm

Buffman wrote: »

Is there a legal requirement for an invoice to record mileage?

If buying from the UK and it's a "new means of transport", it would be usual for it to be zero rated and the VAT 411 procedure adopted which would definitely involve a statement (implied at least) regarding the mileage!

d.m.g

OP is back, after a LOT of driving! Thanks all for your help and reply's on this - changed the date of vrt appointment, and drove the length and breadth of the country - all good!

billy few mates

Thanks for the update and the original thread, I very nearly bought an ex demo car a couple of weeks back with 2700 miles on it as I thought it was six months or 6000km.
I'm glad I waited now.

AnnaJ567

Galway_guy_33 wrote: »

Hi OP and everyone else...

Ive had first hand experience of this exact situation... my car was 7 months old with 4000 miles on the clock.... bad news im afraid i had to pay irish vat and the vrt.

Once i paid both of the above i sent proof that i paid the vat to the car dealer in northern Ireland and a few days later i got a cheque in the post for the uk vat amount. It was much faster than i expected.

All in all it worked out a few hundred more expensive than i planned... this was on a car worth 18k gbp vat inc.

Hope this helps.

Hi,

We are currently faced with a similar problem. Can I ask how long you owned your car for in the UK before you took it to Ireland?

In particular if you got your Vat back from the UK because you only owned the car in the U.K. for less than 2 months or because it would have meant that you were paying Vat twice?

This would be really helpful to know as the UK tax office has not been helpful so far.