200K Daily Commute on Motorway at average 100Kmh

80sDiesel

I do a daily fast motorway/Dual carriage/Single lane commute with no traffic averaging 100k an hour. It is not flat either.
I have another car and 2 classics so they are used outside my commute. 
What advertised range would i be looking at ( considering i would be depleting it at a quicker rate ) before i could even consider an Electric ?

oppenheimer1

80sDiesel wrote: »

I do a daily fast motorway/Dual carriage/Single lane commute with no traffic averaging 100k an hour. It is not flat either.
I have another car and 2 classics so they are used outside my commute. 
What advertised range would i be looking at ( considering i would be depleting it at a quicker rate ) before i could even consider an Electric ?

The current crop would require you to have work charging otherwise with any of them it's a non runner at the moment.

oppenheimer1

Orebro wrote: »

Maybe leave the EV advice to those that have actual experience Oppenwhiner. There's a good lad. I hear After Hours have an opening for a troll or two, maybe you could toddle over there for a while.

Ok then, you tell me what EV can do 200km comfortably at highway speed (i.e. finishing the journey with 20% battery) without needing work charging.

If it's for a daily commute, stressing about whether you will have enough battery every day to get home won't be good for you.

There, good lad, answer that.

Orebro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Ok then, you tell me what EV can do 200km comfortably at highway speed (i.e. finishing the journey with 20% battery) without needing work charging.

If it's for a daily commute, stressing about whether you will have enough battery every day to get home won't be good for you.

There, good lad, answer that.

Tesla Model S.

oppenheimer1

Orebro wrote: »

Tesla Model S.

There you are OP, orebro recommends you an €81k car for your commute.

Orebro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There you are OP, orebro recommends you an €81k car for your commute.

Nope, was just answering your question.

I was just calling you out as the great bluffer of this forum. Now that the op knows, they can listen to experienced advice and ignore your mundane ramblings.

KCross

Ioniq should manage it
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104161573&postcount=3574

The Z.E. 40(Renault Zoe 40kWh) should also make it.

Beyond those I'd say you would be waiting for Leaf II (reveal on Sep 6 and probably deliveries in 181) or the updated Ioniq with larger battery (probably 182). Both of those should comfortably make it.


Beyond that again, if money isn't an issue, you could buy a Tesla today and it will comfortably do it. Cheapest s/h would probably be still around €45k! :eek:


Realistically you need to get your hands on one for a test drive on your route because thats the only answer that will count.


FYI: I don't own any of those so don't buy on the strength of that!

liamog

I think you'd be pushing it in the current Ioniq, maybe if you stick to 115 (on the speedo) you'd be about alright. Realistically I'd say Leaf2 or Zoe40 are the possible options.

Their is the Kona planned for 2018, which is rumored to have a 300km range.

BrianD3

The Renault Zoe ZE 40 would likely do that commute in summer but not in winter. In winter it would be close to doing it. Here is a range calculator where you can put in everything from whether you have the heater or AC on or not and what size wheels are on the car

https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/zoe-250/driving%20range.html

You'd need to get a loan of the car for a few days to try it yourself though. Not all 100 km/h average commutes are the same. If half of it is at 130 km/h and half at 70 km/h, you will use more electricity than if all of it is at 100 km/h.

What car do you drive at the moment and what fuel consumption do you get.

feichin

I do 100km each way commute in a 30Kw leaf BUT on 100kph roads - no motorway driving, and I know from other experience that the extra 20kph makes a big difference to range.
There is a charger close to work which I use daily.
In summer I have been known to arrive at work with 47 > 53% charge remaining BUT I've never managed to do the return without having to stop for a short top up charge.
In winter it takes approx 65% to do the 100km.
In answer to your question, if you have access to a charger during the day your commute is doable, but 200km without a charge is too close to the limit.
If there is a charger close to your workplace keep an eye on it for a while and see how much use does it get, ie. will you have access to it when you need it.

goz83

Is it a 200klm round trip, or each way?

If it's the former, the Ioniq, Zoe 40, or 30kWh Leaf will do the job as long as you have access to charging in/near work.

If it's the latter, then you are too close for comfort and should wait for Leaf 2, or bigger battery Ioniq.

If you've got cash burning a hole in your pocket...pick up that Tesla

If you've got sense, ignore everything the first responder said. He lost his arse on oil shares and has it in for batteries :pac:

Note: Last remark may not be true.

The lips

How do the batteries in these cars fair out with constantly being discharged to a near empty state like the OP would?

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

Is it a 200klm round trip, or each way?

If it's the former, the Ioniq, Zoe 40, or 30kWh Leaf will do the job as long as you have access to charging in/near work.

If it's the latter, then you are too close for comfort and should wait for Leaf 2, or bigger battery Ioniq.

If you've got cash burning a hole in your pocket...pick up that Tesla

If you've got sense, ignore everything the first responder said. He lost his arse on oil shares and has it in for batteries :pac:

Note: Last remark may not be true.

Excuse me? Is there anything in my posts that isn't true? If you are doing a 200km/day the only car that could come close is the Ioniq, but the problem is that it's too close. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to be stressing that I have enough charge to get home every evening. Therefore for the OP, work charging would be a requirement with the EVs on the market at present.

€80k Tesla's don't count.

cros13

The lips wrote: »

How do the batteries in these cars fair out with constantly being discharged to a near empty state like the OP would?

Not a problem. My commute is about 200km of mostly motorway. I've not seen any issues.

Of course it's better to have a bigger battery on these kinds of commute to cut down the number of cycles per cell.

Orebro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Excuse me? Is there anything in my posts that isn't true? If you are doing a 200km/day the only car that could come close is the Ioniq, but the problem is that it's too close. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to be stressing that I have enough charge to get home every evening. Therefore for the OP, work charging would be a requirement with the EVs on the market at present.

€80k Tesla's don't count.

You really have a lot to say about EVs when you don't even own one and have an obvious aversion to them. It's very misleading to people coming here new to EVs looking for info when you start responding like you are an authority. At least come clean and give new people the disclaimer that you give advice being a non EV owner with zero real life experience of them.

It's twats like you made me delay getting one in the first place.

80sDiesel

So would a leaf II make it ? The pro pilot option looks like it would suit be perfect.

200 round trip.
Half at 90-100 kmh
Half at 125+

Current fuel consumption 5.3l diesel.

ELM327

200km is at the outlier of daily commutes IMO. It's almost double mine and I just managed it before work charging in a 24kWh leaf.
I don't think there is any current EV that you could say comfortably with 20% in reserve that will make that journey in all seasons (obvious exception of teslas)

goz83

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Excuse me? Is there anything in my posts that isn't true? If you are doing a 200km/day the only car that could come close is the Ioniq, but the problem is that it's too close. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to be stressing that I have enough charge to get home every evening. Therefore for the OP, work charging would be a requirement with the EVs on the market at present.

€80k Tesla's don't count.

In 248 posts, you've made two positive comments about EVs on this sub forum that I can recall (and that's at a stretch). The first being that EVs are the future. The second that the batteries (on the Leaf) are very durable with regards to fire risk. You are even less kind in the motors forum about EVs.

The fact is that you do not own and have not driven an EV (or used pro grade battery tools) so much of what you say is without experience and you fail to point out to new posters that you have no actual EV experience.

Your bias to Diesel tech is glaringly obvious. People should know this. Every EV owner here is more than capable of telling the OP what will and will not work in his situation, for the commute. Nobody has made a definite suggestion to buy a certain EV and most, if not all have suggested a wait for bigger battery.

80sDiesel wrote: »

So would a leaf II make it ? The pro pilot option looks like it would suit be perfect.

200 round trip.
Half at 90-100 kmh
Half at 125+

Current fuel consumption 5.3l diesel.

Leaf II is not officially announced, so can't comment. Leaf 1.5 (30kWh) will make it comfortable if you have work charging. Even an early Leaf would make it there on a full charge if you have work charging, but I wouldn't recommend it for daily commute. Up until recently, one poster was doing just that.....and only used the public fast charger to do it.

Work charging is the really important thing here for you. If you have it, you could look at a 30kWh Leaf, or the Ioniq. The Leaf can be got for about 8-10k less though. You would want to get the 6.6 OBC, allowing you to recharge at work in about 3 hours.

If you don't have and cannot get access to charging at work, you should wait for Leaf II.

80sDiesel

Thanks.
What would I need as the advertised range of a Leaf II ( noting that I would need a real world range of more ) to achieve by daily commute ?

ELM327

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks.
What would I need as the advertised range of a Leaf II ( noting that I would need a real world range of more ) to achieve by daily commute ?

It's difficult because the NEDC range of the Zoe is 400km, but the real world is 300 on a 80kmh road in a hot summer's day, down to <180 in the depths of winter.

Currently the best bet would be a "Q" model (IE 43kW capable) Renault Zoe ZE40.
This would work most days and if not (due to winter etc), a 10-15minute top up even at a 22kW "slow" charger would get you home.

KCross

80sDiesel wrote: »

Thanks.
What would I need as the advertised range of a Leaf II ( noting that I would need a real world range of more ) to achieve by daily commute ?

I wouldn't look at any advertised range.
I'd take it for a 2-3 day test drive on your specific commute and see for yourself based on that route and how heavy your foot is. Advertised range is meaningless really.

In advance of Leaf II and updated Ioniq coming out I think it would be worth your while taking an Ioniq for an extended test drive to get a feel for how close, or far away, the current models are from meeting your requirements.

oppenheimer1

goz83 wrote: »

In 248 posts, you've made two positive comments about EVs on this sub forum that I can recall (and that's at a stretch). The first being that EVs are the future. The second that the batteries (on the Leaf) are very durable with regards to fire risk. You are even less kind in the motors forum about EVs.

The fact is that you do not own and have not driven an EV (or used pro grade battery tools) so much of what you say is without experience and you fail to point out to new posters that you have no actual EV experience.

Your bias to Diesel tech is glaringly obvious. People should know this. Every EV owner here is more than capable of telling the OP what will and will not work in his situation, for the commute. Nobody has made a definite suggestion to buy a certain EV and most, if not all have suggested a wait for bigger battery.

I'm neither positive or negative on electric cars, it's just a technology, but what I am against is over selling technology. The electric car is a great idea, but the execution of that great idea at the moment is underwhelming in my opinion. My position on EVs on all forums is consistent with the above. In particular,they are not also not the silver bullet solution to our carbon problems that they are sometimes dressed up as.


The advice I gave in this thread is identical to that you gave, that current EVs on the market are unsuitable for the OP unless they have assess to work charging (Tesla's don't count). Not really that harsh is it?

The tools thread is a perfect example of the over selling that happens on this forum. Battery powered tools are great. I own a professional grade battery drill and the portability it offers is fantastic. But let's not kid ourselves, it hasn't a patch on the power offered by it's cheaper corded sister. The same is true for battery chainsaws, mowers etc. Yes, they have their place (a battery chainsaw is ideal for cutting firewood in the back garden of a suburban semi D, where noise might be a consideration and speed doesn't matter) but they have less power and they they are slower than their petrol cousins. They are a good tool to have in the arsenal sure, but superior? No way, not even close.

The EVSE install thread is also another example of over selling. Telling someone to budget €500 for the install when that is obviously the best possible price is bad advice and all I did was call that out. The cabling and breakers alone are €80 minimum for a simple install, and a sparks is €100/hr these days. I told the OP to get a couple of quotes from recis to get a better idea for their particular circumstances. That is good honest, not oversold advice, and is better than putting best possible numbers out there. That leads to disappointment.

Although I own diesel, I have no particular love for the tech. I will happily leave it behind when EVs are better. I have driven an EV too btw.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The tools thread is a perfect example of the over selling that happens on this forum. Battery powered tools are great. I own a professional grade battery drill and the portability it offers is fantastic. But let's not kid ourselves, it hasn't a patch on the power offered by it's cheaper corded sister. The same is true for battery chainsaws, mowers etc. Yes, they have their place (a battery chainsaw is ideal for cutting firewood in the back garden of a suburban semi D, where noise might be a consideration and speed doesn't matter) but they have less power and they they are slower than their petrol cousins. They are a good tool to have in the arsenal sure, but superior? No way, not even close.

The EVSE install thread is also another example of over selling. Telling someone to budget €500 for the install when that is obviously the best possible price is bad advice and all I did was call that out. The cabling and breakers alone are €80 minimum for a simple install, and a sparks is €100/hr these days. I told the OP to get a couple of quotes from recis to get a better idea for their particular circumstances. That is good honest, not oversold advice, and is better than putting best possible numbers out there. That leads to disappointment.

I didn't see any over selling in either of those threads. Your figures are just wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion but unfortunately your opinion is usually based on theory, not real life experience, which results in under-selling on your part. Thats what you are being called out on.

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

I didn't see any over selling in either of those threads. Your figures are just wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion but unfortunately your opinion is usually based on theory, not real life experience, which results in under-selling on your part. Thats what you are being called out on.

My figures are not wrong. If a mower has an 80v battery, a 4Ahr capacity and a 60min run time then it cuts at 320w, which is a quarter of the power of a flymo. That's not theory, that's fact.

Telling someone they can budget €500 for their EVSE is over selling. It depends on whether they can pick up a second hand EVSE and get mates rates from a sparks. It is the best possible price, not typical.

I stand by both those comments. They are not wrong.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

My figures are not wrong. If a mower has an 80v battery, a 4Ahr capacity and a 60min run time then it cuts at 320w, which is a quarter of the power of a flymo. That's not theory, that's fact.

Telling someone they can budget €500 for their EVSE is over selling. It depends on whether they can pick up a second hand EVSE and get mates rates from a sparks. It is the best possible price, not typical.

I stand by both those comments. They are not wrong.

They are wrong but your entitled to your view. If you want to debate that further switch back to those threads.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Telling someone they can budget €500 for their EVSE is over selling.

So how much should they budget?

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

So how much should they budget?

They should budget 400 for the EVSE, €80-100 for cabling and breakers and €100/hr for labour with an absolute minimum of 2hrs work if the unit is to be located outside opposite the distribution board. Most importantly, they should get quotes from real electricians for the best idea of cost.

They should budget more if the EVSE is to be further away or has increased complexity like a separate EV meter or priority switch.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

They should budget 400 for the EVSE, €80-100 for cabling and breakers and €100/hr for labour with an absolute minimum of 2hrs work if the unit is to be located outside opposite the distribution board. Most importantly, they should get quotes from real electricians for the best idea of cost.

They should budget more if the EVSE is to be further away or has increased complexity like a separate EV meter or priority switch.

So €700?

And you're getting your knickers in a twist because someone said to budget €500?

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

So €700?

And you're getting your knickers in a twist because someone said to budget €500?

It's 40% more.
It's also far more realistic.

Soarer

Thanks for the maths lesson.

Since you're so good with the figures, I'm sure it'll not take you long to work out how quickly that 40% will be made back in running cost savings.

That €200 would probably cover your road tax for 3 months.

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

I didn't see any over selling in either of those threads. Your figures are just wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion but unfortunately your opinion is usually based on theory, not real life experience, which results in under-selling on your part. Thats what you are being called out on.

What's wrong with his opinion though?

There isn't any affordable EV that can do 200km @ 120kmh on the motorways available now in all weather conditions

Plenty of people would like an EV to do Dublin to Cork without charging and consider it minimum you'd expect from a car in 2017

We are used to that standard

I wouldnt like to be doing that journey and then baby falls asleep after being very cranky all the.way and then I have to stop for 30mins to charge just as he falls asleep, disaster!

We consumers have been used to doing that commute without stopping for over 30 years, new technology has to better in everyway

Open did say he will be buy an EV when he doesn't have to compromise, I will be the same

When a 60-75kwh, 250bhp EV is available for 25-30k I will be buying

Needs Golf Gti pace and 300km minimum range @ 120kmh to get myself on-board, I understand alot here are more than happy with 100bhp and 150km range @ 120kmh and that's ok too

Just don't giving abuse to a poster who expects more for his money

Look at the Zoe 44kw nearly 28k for a 73bhp electric motor, Fiesta ST 6k cheaper with a wrc inspired turbo petrol with nearly 200bhp

What's a better car?

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Thanks for the maths lesson.

Since you're so good with the figures, I'm sure it'll not take you long to work out how quickly that 40% will be made back in running cost savings.

That €200 would probably cover your road tax for 3 months.

Look at the running costs thread. Not massive savings in there. All savings handsomely gobbled up by depreciation.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

What's wrong with his opinion though?

There isn't any affordable EV that can do 200km @ 120kmh on the motorways available now in all weather conditions

Plenty of people would like an EV to do Dublin to Cork without charging and consider it minimum you'd expect from a car in 2017

We are all entitled to our opinions and I don't fault you or him for wanting absolute equivalence between ICE and EV (e.g. Cork-Dublin without stopping). Sure I'd love that myself.

I'd also agree the OP's question is a stretch right now and his opinion on that isn't too far off. I wouldn't have said "non-runner", however.

My last post about his opinion was about his remark of over-selling in other threads. He is the polar opposite and continuously undersells based on very little real life experience. Thats the issue with his opinion, it tends to be less informed (A Leaf test drive and a cordless drill?!).... but then again, thats just my opinion!

jimmycrackcorm

thierry14 wrote:

Look at the Zoe 44kw nearly 28k for a 73bhp electric motor, Fiesta ST 6k cheaper with a wrc inspired turbo petrol with nearly 200bhp

What's a better car?

The Zoe. What use is 200bhp stuck in Dublin city traffic?

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

We are all entitled to our opinions and I don't fault you or him for wanting absolute equivalence between ICE and EV (e.g. Cork-Dublin without stopping). Sure I'd love that myself.

I'd also agree the OP's question is a stretch right now and his opinion on that isn't too far off. I wouldn't have said "non-runner", however.

My last post about his opinion was about his remark of over-selling in other threads. He is the polar opposite and continuously undersells based on very little real life experience. Thats the issue with his opinion, it tends to be less informed (A Leaf test drive and a cordless drill?!).... but then again, thats just my opinion!

The idea is either a runner or it's not. Calling it a stretch is just weasel words - an affordable EV won't work at that distance without work charging. It is just too close to the limit of present range to be comfortable doing it every day.

Go on then you tell me what the average power output from that mower is? I can read a specification sheet, I know it is far less capable than a petrol mower just by looking at it, I don't need to use it. I know it's being oversold.

thelikelylad

thierry14 wrote: »

What's wrong with his opinion though?
Plenty of people would like an EV to do Dublin to Cork without charging and consider it minimum you'd expect from a car in 2017

Realistically it will be probably late 2018 before we see anything capable of Cork - Dublin at 120km/h without stopping.

The updated Ioniq will probably be the first non-Tesla EV to be capable of Cork - Dublin without stopping at 120km/h all-year round - assuming it has at least a 40kWh pack. A 50kWh Ioniq would be more than capable of doing the trip without stopping all-year round at even faster speeds. I've no idea of when we will see the bigger battery Ioniq though, I'm guessing late 2018 here. My only concern is if Hyundai are having trouble churning out cars with 28kWh LG chem packs then I wonder how they will handle demand for bigger packs.

All going well my next car will be a Model 3 in 2019. I can't see myself buying another Hyundai (v2 Ioniq or Kona) or any other manufacturer for that matter.

Gumbo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It's 40% more.
It's also far more realistic.

I got mine supplied and fitted by RECI Electrician for €300 all in.
That's mates rates!

Even allowing someone to pick up a home charge point and then pay €300 for fitting, I stand my post that it can be done for €500 all in if they keep an eye on the classifieds of the dedicated EV forums here and in UK.

thierry14

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The Zoe. What use is 200bhp stuck in Dublin city traffic?

Get a bus or Luas

Water John

Absolutely right Thierry, anyone that can reasonably use public transport in an city, should. If possible, leave the car, whatever it is, at home.

Soarer

thierry14 wrote: »

What's wrong with his opinion though?

There's nothing wrong with his opinion, and he's perfectly entitled to hold it.

But when he's passing opinion off as fact with no real-life experience of EV ownership, poo-pooing the current range of EVs available, and generally dragging every thread he posts in down to an argument, people react. I mean, orebro got an infraction for name calling. that stuff only happens when oppenheimer's involved.

You can see what we're up against when oppenheimer accused an EV owner of "overselling" EVs because he dared to tell the OP to budget €500 for the supply and install of a home chargepoint, when opennheimer reckoned it'd be €700! :eek:

It's just a never ending battle with him, as he seems to have a vested interest in talking people out of EV ownership. There's not one EV owner on here that would tell a potential buyer to buy an EV if it didn't suit their needs.
Whereas oppenheimer will always try put someone off irrespective of their circumstances.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Look at the running costs thread. Not massive savings in there. All savings handsomely gobbled up by depreciation.

Utter, utter [snip]!

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with his opinion, and he's perfectly entitled to hold it.

But when he's passing opinion off as fact with no real-life experience of EV ownership, poo-pooing the current range of EVs available, and generally dragging every thread he posts down to an argument, people react. I mean, orebro got an infraction for name calling. that stuff only happens when oppenheimer's involved.

You can see what we're up against when oppenheimer accused an EV owner of "overselling" EVs because he dared to tell the OP to budget €500 for the supply and install of a home chargepoint, when opennheimer reckoned it'd be €700! :eek:

It's just a never ending battle with him, as he seems to have a vested interested in talking people out of EV ownership. There's not one EV owner on here that would tell a potential buyer to buy an EV if it didn't suit their needs.
Whereas oppenheimer will always try put someone off irrespective of their circumstances.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion indeed.
And those reading these boards looking for advice on EV (like I did for quite some time before (a) purchasing and (b) registering) would do well to decide who's advice is more relevant and reliable. The guy who constantly puts down EV in every post, who drives two diesel cars and expects that an EV should be able to drive the NEDC range on a daily basis..... or the other hand, a community of EV users providing real world experience based on their daily EV journeys. Real life examples of using the chargers, using the guessometers, finding out range on different roads, different speeds, different weather etc.

Real world experience, aggregated across multiple users versus one man hurling from the ditches in his 2 diesels.

Both people are equally entitled to hold an opinion, however if I were still a prospective EV owner as opposed to a current EV owner, I know which posts I would listen to.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

Utter, utter bollox!

If you pay loan costs and also include a negative for depreciation, then it is indeed utter bollox, because generally there will be a positive equity between the value of an EV and the total amount repaid. For me I reckon I could sell my EV tomorrow, clear my loan, and have approx 2.5k to play with after.

So that means I should not include both loan costs and depreciation in the monthly figure, as they are essentially a double negative. A fact which many (including myself by starting that post) seem to have missed up to now.

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion indeed.
And those reading these boards looking for advice on EV (like I did for quite some time before (a) purchasing and (b) registering) would do well to decide who's advice is more relevant and reliable. The guy who constantly puts down EV in every post, who drives two diesel cars and expects that an EV should be able to drive the NEDC range on a daily basis..... or the other hand, a community of EV users providing real world experience based on their daily EV journeys. Real life examples of using the chargers, using the guessometers, finding out range on different roads, different speeds, different weather etc.

Both people are equally entitled to hold an opinion, however if I were still a prospective EV owner as opposed to a current EV owner, I know which posts I would listen to.

Yeah, mine because I'm not swayed by having already already made an expensive investment in the tech. I can look objectively and fairly at the whole picture.

Water John

No Opper, you have invested in 2 diesels, which may well now depreciate a lot faster than hitherto.

oppenheimer1

Water John wrote: »

No Opper, you have invested in 2 diesels, which may well now depreciate a lot faster than hitherto.

It doesn't matter how fast they depreciate because my change cycle has them depreciating to zero anyway.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Yeah, mine because I'm not swayed by having already already made an expensive investment in the tech. I can look objectively and fairly at the whole picture.

You can.

But don't.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how fast they depreciate because my change cycle has them depreciating to zero anyway.

Mine too!

So which of the two of us is saving most on our daily commute?

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Mine too!

So which of the two of us is saving most on our daily commute?

I cycle, so me. I don't believe in using unsustainable private transport options for commuting.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I cycle, so me. I don't believe in using unsustainable private transport options for commuting.

Well you might leave the motors forum and close the door behind you.

Good lad.

Soarer

@ 80sDiesel. Apologies for the derailing of your thread. There's an alarming trend of that happening when certain cyclists "contribute".