Cardinal or Ordinal Dates in SIs

Victor

Cardinal and ordinal numbers http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/cardinal-ordinal-chart.html

In paragraph 2 of this SI, it uses an ordinal date, but the signature uses a cardinal date. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/1/made/en/print

In paragraph 2 of this SI and at the signature a cardinal date is used. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/2/made/en/print

I accept its a matter of style, but consistency is nice.

Which style is better?

GM228

If we want to be precise the use of Ordinal and Cardinal figures is incorrect.

"6 January 2017" for example should be either January 6, 2017 for Cardinal or 6th of January 2017 for Ordinal. (Note the use of comma and "of").

The general rule is that Cardinal figures should come after the month with the use of a comma and Ordinal before with the use of "of".

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

The general rule is that Cardinal figures should come after the month with the use of a and Ordinal before with the use of "of".

If there is such a thing as a 'general rule', I'm pretty sure that the civil service would implement it in a consistent fashion across all departments and functions. If it (the 'general rule') existed, it's the type of thing that they would discuss in the cafeteria and which would keep them awake at night. I know a few retired senior (PO+) civil servants and believe, me, this is the type of stuff they devour and discuss ad nauseam.

So the fact that there is no consistency in official documents would suggest that there is no 'general rule'.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

If there is such a thing as a 'general rule', I'm pretty sure that the civil service would implement it in a consistent fashion across all departments and functions. If it (the 'general rule') existed, it's the type of thing that they would discuss in the cafeteria and which would keep them awake at night. I know a few retired senior (PO+) civil servants and believe, me, this is the type of stuff they devour and discuss ad nauseam.

So the fact that there is no consistency in official documents would suggest that there is no 'general rule'.

It's the generally accepted rule for the proper use of grammar and is taught in both deductive and inductive reasoning teachings when someone learns of the five number type groups.

And despite what you think of Civil Servants I can tell you that using proper grammar skills is rarely the top of their CVs when it comes to qualifications.

The proper (or rather bad) use of grammar is often mentioned in Court especially when dealing with cases of statutory interpretation. You would be surprised by the amount of cases which draw on the use of full stops, commas, "and" or "or".

For example "or" can mean something totally different to ",or" and legislation often gets such wrong until the courts are left trying to figure them out and correct the poor grammatical correctness of our civil servants/lawmakers.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

It's the generally accepted rule for the proper use of grammer and is thought in both deductive and inductive reasoning teachings when someone learns of the five number type groups.

And despite what you think of Civil Servents I can tell you that using proper grammer skills is rarely the top of their CVs when it comes to qualifications.

The proper (or rather bad) use of grammer is often mentioned in Court especially when dealing with cases of statutory interpretation. You would be surprised of the amount of cases which draw on the use of full stops, commas, "and" or "or".

For example "or" can mean something totally different to ",or" and legislation often gets such wrong until the court are left trying to figure them out and correct the poor grammatical correctness of our civil servants/lawmakers.

Let him among you who is without sin.....

hullaballoo

coylemj wrote: »

Let him among you who is without sin.....

Well, would you look at that.

Look, I'm not sure why you decided to become hostile to others in this forum but it's completely unnecessary. You can be a pedant without being arsey about it.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

Let him among you who is without sin.....

New lesson: spelling and grammar are not the same, although a spelling mistake can lead to a grammatical error, but isn't it just wonderful when you use an iPhone to post which has auto correct features, features which have as much training in grammatical correctness as the ordinary joe.

Thank you for pointing them out though, they are now correct. The edit button is also wonderful

Victor

/fixes own pre-breakfast typos.

coylemj

I don't accept that how you write the date has anything to do with grammar, this is an issue about syntax.

It's the same with how to write imperial dimensions like feet and inches - it's purely down to the writer and how the intended audience will interpret the data.

Which is correct: 6' 2" or 6 ft 2 in? Is one wrong and the other right? I say no, there is no fixed rule.

With dates, the principal 'rule' is that you do not write it in a fashion that will allow it to be interpreted as being in the US format which is why most of us type the month name.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

I don't accept that how you write the date has anything to do with grammar, this is an issue about syntax.

Grammar is a broad term of the given set of rules which includes syntax, morphology and (depending on who you ask) phonology.

coylemj wrote: »

It's the same with how to write imperial dimensions like feet and inches - it's purely down to the writer and how the intended audience will interpret the data.

Which is correct: 6' 2" or 6 ft 2 in? Is one wrong and the other right? I say no, there is no fixed rule.

No it's not the same because you are comparing symbols and abbreviations with number groups.

Abbreviations or symbols can both be used, I suppose the context and of course the writing style would decide which one was more appropriate. What is important in such is the spacings, you correctly had no space between numbet and symbol and a space between number and abbreviation.

Best not go into the foot vs feet debate

coylemj wrote: »

With dates, the principal 'rule' is that you do not write it in a fashion that will allow it to be interpreted as being in the US format which is why most of us type the month name.

You write a date in accordance with a certain standard, the European Standard just so happens to be different to the US standard (despite most countries in the world adopting the same ISO standard in relation to dates), not in a fashion to prevent it being interpreted as being in the US format. It does not matter what standard of time you apply when you write a date - you still follow the so called rules of grammar.

Peregrinus

Actually, I'd say that this is a matter neither of grammar nor of syntax, but of style. This is true both as to the preference between cardinal and ordinal numbers, and as to the choice between month-day order and day-month order.

If we're using cardinals, "1 January" and "January 1" are equally correct, grammatically and syntactically. Which you prefer is a matter of style and, as it happens, "January 1" is generally preferred in US English, and "1 January" in most other variants of English. The BBC Style Guide prefers, e.g., "12 April 2003", as does the Australian Government Style Manual and the EU's Interinstitutional Style Guide, whereas the Associated Press Stylebook (US) favours "April 12, 2003".

Preference here is also affected by an individual's usage in spoken English. In discussion, would you say "January the first" or "the first of January"? Whichever answer you give to that question is likely to be a pointer to how you would write the date.

Carawaystick

In spoken english, I'd never say the of in a date, it's be at best an a and probably a schwa

I imagine in legal documents, there's no way a date in ordinal or cardinal would be misunderstood, so it doesn't matter.

Noonan managed to say two o eight and what ever our reservations about the delivery, understood which year he refered to .

hullaballoo

The nth day of the month of Month in the year of our lord, 20nn is about the only way to give the date, IMHO.

Victor

hullaballoo wrote: »

The nth day of the month of Month in the year of our lord, 20nn is about the only way to give the date, IMHO.

Lord!

Carawaystick

hullaballoo wrote: »

The nth day of the month of Month in the year of our lord, 20nn is about the only way to give the date, IMHO.

This is what happens when we let seventeen year olds post. No sense of history