Local needs!!

nowayout1

Just looking over housing sites being up for sale. One thing that struck me was majority of the sites were subject to planning permission & "local needs."

With the current housing problems in this country I do see this clause as a farce. I understand it's for farming families to live on the land, protect Gaeltacht areas & to stop selling on homes making profit.

Do councils make considerations if your not going to sell on etc if your an outsider? I'm hoping to buy a site in Meath/Kildare/Wicklow areas & it seems to be a trend. Do these councils approve of logcabins being built?

Do use think this is right or not?

I found this article online that it's against EU law
http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/12/4139977-fears-new-eu-rule-on-local-need-housing-will-cause-mayhem/

Metric Tensor

It stops people living in the "country" and commuting to the nearby big towns and cities. There are rural areas where these rules don't apply and councils are almost encouraging of planning applications because there is problems with depopulation.

If you want to move to the country and contribute or work in the local community then you will get planning in these areas - you won't be within commuting distance of a job in Dublin though!

Alternatively find an existing old house and do it up. You will find these within commuting distance of Dublin - but everyone else is looking for these too!

Search this forum for log cabin houses - not a runner in most cases for many reasons.

enterprise2017

nowayout1 wrote: »

Just looking over housing sites being up for sale. One thing that struck me was majority of the sites were subject to planning permission & "local needs."

With the current housing problems in this country I do see this clause as a farce. I understand it's for farming families to live on the land, protect Gaeltacht areas & to stop selling on homes making profit.

Do councils make considerations if your not going to sell on etc if your an outsider? I'm hoping to buy a site in Meath/Kildare/Wicklow areas & it seems to be a trend. Do these councils approve of logcabins being built?

Do use think this is right or not?

I found this article online that it's against EU law
http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/12/4139977-fears-new-eu-rule-on-local-need-housing-will-cause-mayhem/

Local needs...what? milk, bread?

californiabear

Each county council will have their own interpretation of local needs. I qualified in Louth, where the site had to be within a 4km radius of the home where I grew up, and I had to prove that I had never owned a house in the rural part of the county before. Check out the local area development plans on each county council's website, they will explain what is permitted and what is not. I don't see any point in arguing whether you see the regulations as being valid or not, the councils will not entertain that!

Cilar

This system is a farce. You just have to drive around in Meath, Kildare, Co. Dublin to see what type of houses being built. These houses are not small country houses for farmers for sure, unless all farmers are nearly millionaires! I suspect that with a brown envelop or the right connections, it's possible to get around it. Also if you're a developer with right connections, and want to build a crappy estate in middle of nowhere, you can also go around it.

123shooter

The only people who should be allowed to live in the countryside are the people who work there.

The countryside is a place of work not for dreamers and speculators who then grab what they want and price out people who need to live there for work.

Dreamers move in and complain about the locals, animals, flies, smells and tractors on the road and then try and turn the countryside into the place they just left and couldn't stand.

Speculators move in and out price everybody.

Metric Tensor

It's a valid argument 123shooter and nothing pisses me off more than some suburbanite moving out and complaining about the smell of slurry (the countryside is where farming happens!). But when a farmer has four children and only one takes over farming it's a tough sell to say the other three should f*ck off into the nearest town.

Also the countryside needs residents to survive and thrive .. and more than just those physically farming the land. We shouldn't be trying to make some sort of countryside museum for the city dwellers to visit at the weekend and marvel at the comely maidens and the grass in the middle of the road. So there has to be some sort of balance that allows rural communities to thrive but prevents them from becoming dormitories for city commuters. People should be allowed to move to rural areas if they intend to contribute to them - fill the school with kids, frequent the shop, play for the local sports teams, etc. Of course you can do all that by buying and renovating an existing house too! A McMansion is not always necessary.

It's a hard balance to strike and councils try their best with most misbehaviour in this regard usually restricted to individuals rather than systemic issues (not always of course!)

Poor Uncle Tom

Metric Tensor wrote: »

It's a valid argument 123shooter and nothing pisses me off more than some suburbanite moving out and complaining about the smell of slurry (the countryside is where farming happens!). But when a farmer has four children and only one takes over farming it's a tough sell to say the other three should f*ck off into the nearest town.

That's the imbalance imo too, not whether Tony towndweller has a right to build in the middle of nowhere because they like the notion of green surroundings and qualify for a mortgage.

Over the decades I have seen this happen and I've seen them sell up and move back to town because they found it hard keeping in contact with family and not having a shop / cafe / bus / school / pub, on their doorstep and it costs a small fortune to service a big site and maintain a septic tank system.

Metric Tensor wrote: »

the countryside needs residents to survive and thrive .. and more than just those physically farming the land. We shouldn't be trying to make some sort of countryside museum for the city dwellers to visit at the weekend and marvel at the comely maidens and the grass in the middle of the road. So there has to be some sort of balance that allows rural communities to thrive but prevents them from becoming dormitories for city commuters. People should be allowed to move to rural areas if they intend to contribute to them - fill the school with kids, frequent the shop, play for the local sports teams, etc. Of course you can do all that by buying and renovating an existing house too! A McMansion is not always necessary.

Agreed, some connect with the local area is a must, either family living in the general area or a genuine desire to contribute to the local community but this has to be balanced with the knowledge that you will have a need for your own transport, you won't have services on your doorstep, depending on how rural a setting it is, your property may be cut off during harsh winters, you won't have the security of living in an urban setting, Your property will be open to thieves and vandalism on a larger scale than if you resided in an urban area.

Metric Tensor wrote: »

It's a hard balance to strike and councils try their best with most misbehaviour in this regard usually restricted to individuals rather than systemic issues (not always of course!)

A very hard balance and a lot of LA's are doing their best by designating areas within their counties as weaker structured areas or areas under pressure from numbers of proposed developments against the availability of services in those areas.

Metric Tensor

Agree with all of the above PUT.

Pkiernan

Local needs is just nothing short of a racist policy which has the effect of keeping foreigners out of an area.

sydthebeat

Pkiernan wrote: »

Local needs is just nothing short of a racist policy which has the effect of keeping foreigners out of an area.

nope

i will again stress, that there are WHOLE SWATHES of the country where local needs does NOT apply therefore no "racist policy" exists.

eg about 2/3s of laois.

1/2 of offaly. page 20
about 80% of mayo. page 21

etc etc etc

of course, if people think that 'anyone should be allowed to live anywhere', then they will never agree with any planning policy.

rural housing is a finite resource so it should have protectionist policies in areas within which its under the most pressure... which we have.

Just because Karl from Poland isnt allowed to live 2 kms outside of town on the main road to the next town doesnt mean we have a "racist policy"...
tony from town would also get refused there.

if Karl wants his rural dwelling then he needs to source a suitable site which is not under pressure from urban sprawl... there is plenty of land to choose from.

BryanF

Pkiernan wrote: »

Local needs is just nothing short of a racist policy which has the effect of keeping foreigners out of an area.

Horse ****

arctictree

sydthebeat wrote: »

nope

i will again stress, that there are WHOLE SWATHES of the country where local needs does NOT apply therefore no "racist policy" exists.

eg about 2/3s of laois.

1/2 of offaly. page 20
about 80% of mayo. page 21

etc etc etc

of course, if people think that 'anyone should be allowed to live anywhere', then they will never agree with any planning policy.

rural housing is a finite resource so it should have protectionist policies in areas within which its under the most pressure... which we have.

Just because Karl from Poland isnt allowed to live 2 kms outside of town on the main road to the next town doesnt mean we have a "racist policy"...
tony from town would also get refused there.

if Karl wants his rural dwelling then he needs to source a suitable site which is not under pressure from urban sprawl... there is plenty of land to choose from.

The problem happens when Karl is refused planning but Tom (a local) is granted it on exactly the same site with the only reason being that Tom was born locally. Either ban rural housing completely or do not include birthplace as one of the factors in determining local need.

sydthebeat

arctictree wrote: »

The problem happens when Karl is refused planning but Tom (a local) is granted it on exactly the same site with the only reason being that Tom was born locally. Either ban rural housing completely or do not include birthplace as one of the factors in determining local need.

ah buts its not either / or.

If Tom is a local, and has a need to live in the local area for family reasons, then his need is greater than Karls and therefore holds more weight.

Karl cannot pick and choose where he wants to live... in the same manner Tom cannot pick and choose where he wants to live (other than the local area he has ties to)

If Karl wants to live in a rural area, then he should seek out a site thats not under pressure from urban generated housing.

your argument of either "free for all" or "blanket ban" is not nuanced, balanced, progressive or, to be frank, fair.

SMKenny1

californiabear wrote: »

Each county council will have their own interpretation of local needs. I qualified in Louth, where the site had to be within a 4km radius of the home where I grew up, and I had to prove that I had never owned a house in the rural part of the county before. Check out the local area development plans on each county council's website, they will explain what is permitted and what is not. I don't see any point in arguing whether you see the regulations as being valid or not, the councils will not entertain that!

Hi Californiabear,

Just read your post and was wondering were you always living in the rural area and then the site was within 4km of this? I’m having this argument with Louth coco at the minute but my husband is born and reared on the edge of the town and the site is 1km out the road.. we are being told no on the basis that you cross the urban / rural boundary on the way to the site and therefore the 4km rule does t matter..
any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated ...

SMKenny1

californiabear wrote: »

Each county council will have their own interpretation of local needs. I qualified in Louth, where the site had to be within a 4km radius of the home where I grew up, and I had to prove that I had never owned a house in the rural part of the county before. Check out the local area development plans on each county council's website, they will explain what is permitted and what is not. I don't see any point in arguing whether you see the regulations as being valid or not, the councils will not entertain that!

Hi Californiabear,

Just read your post and was wondering were you always living in the rural area and then the site was within 4km of this? I’m having this argument with Louth coco at the minute but my husband is born and reared on the edge of the town and the site is 1km out the road.. we are being told no on the basis that you cross the urban / rural boundary on the way to the site and therefore the 4km rule does t matter..
any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated ...

californiabear

SMKenny1 wrote: »

californiabear wrote: »

Each county council will have their own interpretation of local needs. I qualified in Louth, where the site had to be within a 4km radius of the home where I grew up, and I had to prove that I had never owned a house in the rural part of the county before. Check out the local area development plans on each county council's website, they will explain what is permitted and what is not. I don't see any point in arguing whether you see the regulations as being valid or not, the councils will not entertain that!

Hi Californiabear,

Just read your post and was wondering were you always living in the rural area and then the site was within 4km of this? I’m having this argument with Louth coco at the minute but my husband is born and reared on the edge of the town and the site is 1km out the road.. we are being told no on the basis that you cross the urban / rural boundary on the way to the site and therefore the 4km rule does t matter..
any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated ...

Hi SMKenny, I grew up in the rural part of the county, so qualified on that basis. My understanding is that you have to prove both parts for local needs - local and need. And local means lived in the rural part of the county for 10+ years. Need means that you have never owned a home in the rural part of the county. Only when you have satisfied local needs will the look at site details - that's not what you want to hear I'm sure.
How far did your husband grow up from the urban/rural boundary? Any chance he went to school in the countryside/played GAA in country parish? If you could prove strong links to the rural area from his childhood, that might make a difference.

BryanF

Brendanfd3s wrote: »

I can confirm local needs is a pile of horse $#!£ when it comes down to it. It is there to give absolute control to the council. The closer the commuter belt to dublin the more stringent. I have whitnessed 'outsiders' bypass this local needs clause and get planning permission where genuine locals couldn't purely through contacts, brown envelopes and favours. .

If you have witnessed a crime, which is what you seem to stating above, contact the guards

If youre just having a rant, try the After hours forum

littelady

Cilar wrote: »

This system is a farce. You just have to drive around in Meath, Kildare, Co. Dublin to see what type of houses being built. These houses are not small country houses for farmers for sure, unless all farmers are nearly millionaires! I suspect that with a brown envelop or the right connections, it's possible to get around it. Also if you're a developer with right connections, and want to build a crappy estate in middle of nowhere, you can also go around it.

What a ridiculous quote....The houses built are large but cost f all to build....farmers have allot of machinery that goes towards building and they usually manage the build themselves all they really pay for is the materials. 200k would get you a mansion in the country.

Brown envelope really you are so uneducated about the topic you are jealous of the large houses and make up sheer nonsense of brown envelopes. Thank God for local needs.

Cilar

littelady wrote: »

What a ridiculous quote....The houses built are large but cost f all to build....farmers have allot of machinery that goes towards building and they usually manage the build themselves all they really pay for is the materials. 200k would get you a mansion in the country.

Brown envelope really you are so uneducated about the topic you are jealous of the large houses and make up sheer nonsense of brown envelopes. Thank God for local needs.

Estate in middle of nowhere in Meath http://www.daft.ie/meath/houses-for-sale/ashbourne/house-type-an-pairc-wotton-the-wotton-ashbourne-meath-1506920/ while normal people cannot buy land in same location due to local needs.

Poor Uncle Tom

littelady wrote: »

The houses built are large but cost f all to build....farmers have allot of machinery that goes towards building and they usually manage the build themselves all they really pay for is the materials.

Very silly, misinformed and incorrect statement.

granddesigner

californiabear wrote: »

Hi SMKenny, I grew up in the rural part of the county, so qualified on that basis. My understanding is that you have to prove both parts for local needs - local and need. And local means lived in the rural part of the county for 10+ years. Need means that you have never owned a home in the rural part of the county. Only when you have satisfied local needs will the look at site details - that's not what you want to hear I'm sure.
How far did your husband grow up from the urban/rural boundary? Any chance he went to school in the countryside/played GAA in country parish? If you could prove strong links to the rural area from his childhood, that might make a difference.

Hi californiabear,

As you have successfully qualified for the local needs would you be able to share details of the evidence you provided to the council, IE, to prove you were local, what letters/documents did you have to collate? Same for the need's?

At the start of my journey here and trying to get all my ducks in a row before I summit my application.

sydthebeat

granddesigner wrote: »

Hi californiabear,

As you have successfully qualified for the local needs would you be able to share details of the evidence you provided to the council, IE, to prove you were local, what letters/documents did you have to collate? Same for the need's?

At the start of my journey here and trying to get all my ducks in a row before I summit my application.

Every council is different

most councils have a quite detailed list of information required.... for example see the kildare rural supplementary application form here.

work on the basis that you cannot give too much info.

Cilar

Cilar wrote: »

Estate in middle of nowhere in Meath http://www.daft.ie/meath/houses-for-sale/ashbourne/house-type-an-pairc-wotton-the-wotton-ashbourne-meath-1506920/ while normal people cannot buy land in same location due to local needs.

Could that be a stalled development from the CT years?

granddesigner

sydthebeat wrote: »

Every council is different

most councils have a quite detailed list of information required....

work on the basis that you cannot give too much info.

Thanks for this.. I am in the Galway and have been assessing the Local Need's form, some area's are quite vague and leave it open to interpretations. It would be good if I could see a successfully completed application and what "evidence" they have provided.

These can not be viewed on the Galway County Council Planning Maps, they have restricted viewing, I suggest for Data protection but it is also very convenient for them

californiabear

granddesigner wrote: »

Hi californiabear,

As you have successfully qualified for the local needs would you be able to share details of the evidence you provided to the council, IE, to prove you were local, what letters/documents did you have to collate? Same for the need's?

At the start of my journey here and trying to get all my ducks in a row before I summit my application.

The documents I provided were: long birth cert showing parents addresses, letter from primary school in the parish stating the years I attended, letter from parish priest saying I was baptised, confirmed and married in the parish, and some post (bank statement, P60, mobile phone bill) from my early 20's when I was still living at home. The aim is to prove your links to the local area - that you have grown up and/or lived there for over 10 years.
If you are at the start of the process and cannot find the relevant info on the County Council website, give them a call and ask what is required. Good luck with it!

californiabear

You won't generally see people's local needs info on the council website, as it is personal and private. Once my documents had been reviewed, they were returned to me.

Moggaman

Hi. I am from the country and built a house with my wife in our parish in. 2007. Long story short. We want to move . House too big. Circumstances have changed. But we want to build again in the same area 'countryside'. Planning was gotten in my name only . My wife is local too. But she is on the deeds of the house . Am I right in saying if u own or ever owned a house in the area , you will not get permission. Does that go for 'part owned' -also? .Any advice.

sydthebeat

It really depends on the county.

Some counties ask if you have ever owned a house in the rural area, other counties ask if you have every been granted planning permission in the local area.

You should ask a local planning expert

granddesigner

californiabear wrote: »

The documents I provided were: long birth cert showing parents addresses, letter from primary school in the parish stating the years I attended, letter from parish priest saying I was baptised, confirmed and married in the parish, and some post (bank statement, P60, mobile phone bill) from my early 20's when I was still living at home. The aim is to prove your links to the local area - that you have grown up and/or lived there for over 10 years.
If you are at the start of the process and cannot find the relevant info on the County Council website, give them a call and ask what is required. Good luck with it!

Great Info californiabear.

I have been reviewing some applications on the County Council website but as you say, all local need applications are private. From what I gather, if you get all in together the first time around you have a better chance of success, from the local need angle anyways. I see quite a few application where the planners look for more details for local needs...

I'm was not born in the area I am looking at building but have lived there for quite some time. So I would not be able to provide long birth cert, letter from primary school, parish priest letter saying I was baptised etc... I suggest this all stacks up against me.

californiabear

When you say you've lived in the area, do you own a house there? If you do, that may preclude you from having local needs as you won't be judged as having a need. Links to the community will be important to show - sports clubs etc. And paperwork going back over the years showing address.

Metric Tensor

If you are currently renting in the area then your rent book, utility bills, etc.

Are you kids going to the local school - evidence of that.

Are you a member of any local clubs - evidence of that.

Most importantly - do you work locally - evidence of that. Local need is not about being born in the area it is about having a "need" to live in the area - no better need than working there!

granddesigner

No, I do not own a house, I have been renting in the area since 2010, Same house all this time.
The site i'm looking at is less than 1 km from where I am renting..And my place of work is within a 10 km radius of my rental house, and 9 km from the site. To me this is local, but i'm not sure what a planners view would be on this?

I can provide letters from Clubs, bills and bank statements etc..No children yet, need to sort a home first :rolleyes:

Metric Tensor

I don't think there are any strict rules on the distance from work. For example a 10km drive into Galway City for work would be viewed very differently to a 10km drive to the local fish farm in Killary!

Everything you can think of that shows you are contributing the local community. Tidy towns, community watch, macra .... it all helps.

Moggaman

Auctioneer told me today that if it's an infill site, you don't need to be local, have a local need...????
I thought an infill site would get planning in theory but you still had to have a local need.
I'm talking about in the country side and not a cluster .
Thanks

Lumen

Moggaman wrote: »

Auctioneer told me today that if it's an infill site, you don't need to be local, have a local need...????

Does the auctioneer happen to be selling an infill site?

Moggaman

Lumen wrote: »

Does the auctioneer happen to be selling an infill site?

Clearly he is...

californiabear

Moggaman wrote: »

Auctioneer told me today that if it's an infill site, you don't need to be local, have a local need...????
I thought an infill site would get planning in theory but you still had to have a local need.
I'm talking about in the country side and not a cluster .
Thanks

Quick call to the planning dept of your local council will tell you. I don't remember there being a dispensation for infill sites on local need, the dispensation was around ribbon development rules