What it takes to be elite...

Pherekydes

Interesting blog post by Tianna Bartoletta on what it takes to be elite (mostly money):

it-takes-money

So, what extremes do the regulars go to to be elite? :pac:

walshb

It takes natural talent-genes first and foremost. Then hunger and desire and then hard work and dedication. Of course, money is never far away, and can turn an elite into a GOAT. The differences at the very top can definitely be down to money.

Running is a very cheap sport!

Main thing is that it takes money, but so does pretty much everything. Athletics does not require significant money.

Its not F1 or Tennis or Dressage or Skiing..

So the statement is bogus when you look deeper!

Testosterscone

walshb wrote: »

Running is a very cheap sport!

Is it though

Just had a thought about spending this year myself personally.

Race entry fees: 335e (bear in mind that many races done are track races at 8e a pop)
Massage: Approx 300e
Training shoes: 200e
Transport (taxi's petrol money to lifts etc) 350e approx
Club membership 150e

These would not include many of the other outlays like fresh food, compression boots (admittedly an optional expense) or indeed any sort of running clothes (thankfully have not had to buy any this year with the free tshirts from races my only additions)

Bear in mind that this is coming from a local racer who in my opinion is lucky enough to keep these expenses quite low as a result of a number of factors, not someone racing the circuit where there is substantially more costs incurred

It's half the reason why there is such a fall off in the sport as there is huge outlay with very little chance of reimbursement.

The notion of doing the sport on the cheap is one that this country needs to get out of especially given there is plenty of money around the sport (as opposed to in it)

walshb

Elite athletes are or should be receiving grants.....

Relatively speaking it's a really cheap sport and to train for it to become good requires next to nothing. Roads, tracks and fresh air...Of course some equipment/gear, but a pair of shorts and vest won't break the bank, and nor will a decent pair of trainers.

Put it this way, money is not much of an obstacle for the average person (normal joes soap as regards money and earnings) to become an elite.

The article could be written about plenty of other cheap sports.....

judeboy101

Peds?

conavitzky

Testosterscone wrote: »

Is it though

Just had a thought about spending this year myself personally.

Race entry fees: 335e (bear in mind that many races done are track races at 8e a pop)
Massage: Approx 300e
Training shoes: 200e
Transport (taxi's petrol money to lifts etc) 350e approx
Club membership 150e

These would not include many of the other outlays like fresh food, compression boots (admittedly an optional expense) or indeed any sort of running clothes (thankfully have not had to buy any this year with the free tshirts from races my only additions)

Bear in mind that this is coming from a local racer who in my opinion is lucky enough to keep these expenses quite low as a result of a number of factors, not someone racing the circuit where there is substantially more costs incurred

It's half the reason why there is such a fall off in the sport as there is huge outlay with very little chance of reimbursement.

The notion of doing the sport on the cheap is one that this country needs to get out of especially given there is plenty of money around the sport (as opposed to in it)

Wow, that's a big fee for club membership. Is that the going rate around the big smokey one?

adrian522

I guess that track doesn't pay for itself.

Testosterscone

conavitzky wrote: »

Wow, that's a big fee for club membership. Is that the going rate around the big smokey one?

160 clonliffe
130 Donore
100 crusaders

So fairly comparable with other clubs with track facilities (some also have gym access included in that)

Unfortunately those sort of costs tend to be across most sports in Dublin

Chivito550

I'm miles from being an elite, but am somebody who takes it seriously. This summer for races alone I've racked up:

Return flights to Belgium x 2
2 nights in hotel in Belgium x 2
Return flights to London x 2 (free accommodation though)
Return bus, return taxi plus hotel for Belfast
Share of petrol money to Tullamore and Waterford

Sure I don't have to race abroad, but they are better meets with better weather.

Then throw in things like massage twice every three weeks in the Summer, and probably once every 3 weeks the rest of the year.

Strength and Conditioning coaches charge fortune, but I've researched it myself this season so no monetary expense there.

This all adds up to a significant amount. I don't care though as I'd rather spend the money on this than on vodka and McDonalds, so I never really think of the cost.

The elite guys would have considerably greater costs.

HigginsJ

Surely work (as in having to have a job or not) is the biggest one. I know people can get grants but how much would these be? If someone can afford not to work then that has to be a huge benefit to training/recovery etc.

So in that sense, money/sponsorship must be one of the biggest barriers to get to that elite level?

walshb

You'd really wonder how all those ATGs through the years from those poor African countries ever managed to win a race..

Krusty_Clown

While we're loosely connected to the subject - are race prizes/winnings considered taxable income?

conavitzky

Testosterscone wrote: »

160 clonliffe
130 Donore
100 crusaders

So fairly comparable with other clubs with track facilities (some also have gym access included in that)

Unfortunately those sort of costs tend to be across most sports in Dublin

40euro down here. I suppose Dublin is more expensive for everything though.

conavitzky

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

While we're loosely connected to the subject - are race prizes/winnings considered taxable income?

Certainly. I had to pay benefit in kind for a 20 euro elverlys voucher won in the local agricultural show 5k. I hope you have settled your dues with Tommy and Teresa taxman. A significant dent to be made in our national debt when you pay your share!

Itziger

conavitzky wrote: »

Certainly. I had to pay benefit in kind for a 20 euro elverlys voucher won in the local agricultural show 5k. I hope you have settled your dues with Tommy and Teresa taxman. A significant dent to be made in our national debt when you pay your share!

#makeKrustypay

Krusty_Clown

conavitzky wrote: »

Certainly. I had to pay benefit in kind for a 20 euro elverlys voucher won in the local agricultural show 5k. I hope you have settled your dues with Tommy and Teresa taxman. A significant dent to be made in our national debt when you pay your share!

*cough* I'm asking for a friend.

Tombo2001

I think to be fair it is one thing that sets athletics apart - it doesn't take major major money.

Rory McIlroy's parents, or Andy Murrays parents, are saying they spent over a million on their kids in their teenage years.

I don't think Sonia O'Sullivans parents are saying that.

On the other hand, athletics isn't anything like as lucrative as tennis or gold.

Team sports - you need to be part of a strong team set up. Sean O'Brien's parents aren't investing a huge amount; but Leinster do.

Individual sports - it depends on what degree of coaching is needed. The importance of coaching in athletics isn't anything like as critical as it is for racquet sports for instance.

That's my own opinion, maybe some coaches here will disagree. But one of the things I like about athletics is that anyone with talent and hard work can become very very good at it, and can compete at an international level. There are a lot of sports where that is not the case.

Indeed to some degree that is to the detriment of athletics in the 'TV money stakes'. Kenyans dominate middle distance running as we all know. Only one Kenywan has ever even competed in a Tennis Grand Slam competition (first round!).

raiders11

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm miles from being an elite, but am somebody who takes it seriously. This summer for races alone I've racked up:

Return flights to Belgium x 2
2 nights in hotel in Belgium x 2
Return flights to London x 2 (free accommodation though)
Return bus, return taxi plus hotel for Belfast
Share of petrol money to Tullamore and Waterford

Sure I don't have to race abroad, but they are better meets with better weather.

Then throw in things like massage twice every three weeks in the Summer, and probably once every 3 weeks the rest of the year.

Strength and Conditioning coaches charge fortune, but I've researched it myself this season so no monetary expense there.

This all adds up to a significant amount. I don't care though as I'd rather spend the money on this than on vodka and McDonalds, so I never really think of the cost.

The elite guys would have considerably greater costs.

Having a kid involved at Junior level, the above post is pretty spot on but can throw in more flights, journeys, hotels and it can be a costly sport...

I would say over half the standards got for the World Champs, Euro u23s and Euro Juniors were obtained outside of Ireland, it has to be done, better quality races and definitely better weather.

Chivito550

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think to be fair it is one thing that sets athletics apart - it doesn't take major major money.

Rory McIlroy's parents, or Andy Murrays parents, are saying they spent over a million on their kids in their teenage years.

I don't think Sonia O'Sullivans parents are saying that.

On the other hand, athletics isn't anything like as lucrative as tennis or gold.

Team sports - you need to be part of a strong team set up. Sean O'Brien's parents aren't investing a huge amount; but Leinster do.

Individual sports - it depends on what degree of coaching is needed. The importance of coaching in athletics isn't anything like as critical as it is for racquet sports for instance.

That's my own opinion, maybe some coaches here will disagree. But one of the things I like about athletics is that anyone with talent and hard work can become very very good at it, and can compete at an international level. There are a lot of sports where that is not the case.

Indeed to some degree that is to the detriment of athletics in the 'TV money stakes'. Kenyans dominate middle distance running as we all know. Only one Kenywan has ever even competed in a Tennis Grand Slam competition (first round!).

Importance of coaching not nearly as important in athletics??

How else are we so sh1te at field events so!

walshb

Field events would require more expertise than track I would say. Some really skilled/technical field disciplines....but still comes down to good genes mostly.

Tombo2001

Chivito550 wrote: »

Importance of coaching not nearly as important in athletics??

How else are we so sh1te at field events so!

Apologies, I meant running especially mid distance - not field.

Chivito550

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Apologies, I meant running especially mid distance - not field.

Sprinting and hurdling are also extremely technical, and coaching is absolutely critical for both these disciplines, just like it is for tennis.

Chivito550

raiders11 wrote: »

Having a kid involved at Junior level, the above post is pretty spot on but can throw in more flights, journeys, hotels and it can be a costly sport...

I would say over half the standards got for the World Champs, Euro u23s and Euro Juniors were obtained outside of Ireland, it has to be done, better quality races and definitely better weather.

I got 0.0 and 0.1 wind readings in Belgium this weekend. At the exact same time, Le Cheile International had races run into -3 and -4 headwinds. How are top athletes supposed to run qualifying standards when presented with such rubbish conditions as that.

It also seems that nobody building a track in Irish athletics ever seems to take into account the prevailing winds when designing the track. Surely this is a basic starting point, yet most tracks in Ireland have the home straight running directly into the prevailing winds.

raiders11

Chivito550 wrote: »

I got 0.0 and 0.1 wind readings in Belgium this weekend. At the exact same time, Le Cheile International had races run into -3 and -4 headwinds. How are top athletes supposed to run qualifying standards when presented with such rubbish conditions as that.

Was actually gonna mention Le Cheile myself in my post above as an example too but then left it, was there and I think -3, -4 is being generous.
I think most athletes admitted never encountering a head on wind like that in the home straight.
But yep, hard to get the weather right here in Ireland, if only we could have days like today all the time for the meets:):)

Chivito550

raiders11 wrote: »

Was actually gonna mention Le Cheile myself in my post above as an example too but then left it, was there and I think -3, -4 is being generous.
I think most athletes admitted never encountering a head on wind like that in the home straight.
But yep, hard to get the weather right here in Ireland, if only we could have days like today all the time for the meets:):)

Brace yourself for more of the same at Nationals this weekend!!!

Half my races have been abroad this year. It is much too frustrating here having to deal with rubbish winds.

Birdie Num Num

walshb wrote: »

It takes natural talent-genes first and foremost. Then hunger and desire and then hard work and dedication. Of course, money is never far away, and can turn an elite into a GOAT. The differences at the very top can definitely be down to money.

Running is a very cheap sport!

Main thing is that it takes money, but so does pretty much everything. Athletics does not require significant money.

Its not F1 or Tennis or Dressage or Skiing..

So the statement is bogus when you look deeper!

I think if you were to ask most of Ireland's top elite athletes of the past they would largely agree with you. It is down to talent, hard work and ability to get there. There does of course need to be investment in those athletes to maintain elite performances and nurture young, potential elites.

hurdles1

Had athletes race in santry few times this year
Every meeting minus winds impossible to run times. Cork the same great facilities in both but always windy. Athletes have to go to Belgium to get decent conditions and good competition.
All that costs money throw in gear , warm weather training hotels, petrol, entries it's very hard now for athletes to keep going unless mammy and daddy have a few quid and like seeing them run for ireland.

Tullamore bit windy lately but generally better than the rest with its hedging around the track
AAI should consider some open meetings there early summer for athletes chasing times.

Birdie Num Num

hurdles1 wrote: »

Had athletes race in santry few times this year
Every meeting minus winds impossible to run times. Cork the same great facilities in both but always windy. Athletes have to go to Belgium to get decent conditions and good competition.
All that costs money throw in gear , warm weather training hotels, petrol, entries it's very hard now for athletes to keep going unless mammy and daddy have a few quid and like seeing them run for ireland.

Tullamore bit windy lately but generally better than the rest with its hedging around the track
AAI should consider some open meetings there early summer for athletes chasing times.

It's still relatively inexpensive compared to some other sports. I personally think if you want to make it as a top class distance runner you nearly need to live like a monk rather than find the answers in a wallet. You can send any amount of cart horses to Belgium and you won't necessarily make an elite but I get what you are saying. I am one who agrees with investment in the sport and athletes.

Murph_D

Chivito550 wrote: »

Brace yourself for more of the same at Nationals this weekend!!!

Half my races have been abroad this year. It is much too frustrating here having to deal with rubbish winds.

Is this really an issue? Ireland has a pretty mild climate. Any (non-anecdotal) evidence of wind being an issue for good racing or training here, as opposed to anywhere else?

Testosterscone

Murph_D wrote: »

Is this really an issue? Ireland has a pretty mild climate. Any (non-anecdotal) evidence of wind being an issue for good racing or training here, as opposed to anywhere else?

Just dug out the following numbers from sprints

Out of the top 10 times in each event this year here is how many were achieved in Ireland

Event|Men|Women
100m|3|7
200m|5|7
400m|3|8
110 hurdles|5|2
400m hurdles|5|6


Few side notes to that:

* Fastest 400 (M) and 200m (W) Achieved in Santry/Cork
** Both were achieved in international Meets
*** Could be skewed towards higher home numbers given the number of abroad races would be alot lower
**** Doesn't take into account the fact that some go abroad for level of competition (Diamond League, Grand Prix etc)

Numbers on whole look relatively comparable to be honest on a quick look.

Testosterscone

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I think if you were to ask most of Ireland's top elite athletes of the past they would largely agree with you. It is down to talent, hard work and ability to get there. There does of course need to be investment in those athletes to maintain elite performances and nurture young, potential elites.

I don't think anyone is arguing that talent is not an issue but I think most would also acknowledge the support of family.

Athletics is by in large a middle class sport in Ireland/Western civilization and many athletes rely heavily on the support of family in formative years (not unlike other sports) however I do think that unseen costs (loss of income, family support for food/transport etc) prob get overlooked when factoring into the cost of the sport.

TFBubendorfer

Testosterscone wrote: »

I do think that unseen costs (loss of income, family support for food/transport etc) prob get overlooked when factoring into the cost of the sport.

Sure, but that's equally true for any kind of non-professional sport, not just athletics.

Actually, it's true for professional sport as well, apart from a very small group of people who actually make a living out of their sport.

Testosterscone

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Sure, but that's equally true for any kind of non-professional sport, not just athletics.

Actually, it's true for professional sport as well, apart from a very small group of people who actually make a living out of their sport.

Not denying that but I think it becomes more crucial in high conditioning sports where rest and recovery are a key elements to top level performance and probably gets dismissed more in athletics due to the low entry point of competition (compared to say cycling, tennis or other individual sports)

There is a reason why the likes of Yuki Kawauchi working full weeks is seen as the exception that proves the rule.

Chivito550

Murph_D wrote: »

Is this really an issue? Ireland has a pretty mild climate. Any (non-anecdotal) evidence of wind being an issue for good racing or training here, as opposed to anywhere else?

Just going on experience. I raced for 3 years in Melbourne and my last year I was ridiculously consistent with times over 400m. Then I moved home and I was wildly inconsistent regarding times as I found wind, cooler temperatures became more of a factor.

Have run track races in Ireland, UK, Switzerland, Belgium and Australia and Ireland is by far the least ideal for sprinting.

And yes, a strong headwind is an issue for a 100m and 200m runner chasing times. Ever seen a WR run into a -3.0 wind?

All 5 tracks in Dublin area (Santry, Irishtown, Tallaght, Greystones and Leixlip) all have the home straight going against the prevailing winds. I would have thought this would be an obvious consideration when building a track, but seems nobody ever thinks about this important stuff.

Kudos to Ton le Gaoithe wind sprints meet in Waterford. I wonder how many of the top 10 in each sprint event come from there each year (this year had mostly illegal winds mind you),

Testosterscone

hurdles1 wrote: »

Cork the same great facilities in both but always windy.

Looks like they were blessed last night

Womens 200 (0.0 wind)

Phil Healy taking 0.33 from time and new Canadian Record in 22.50

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

Kudos to Ton le Gaoithe wind sprints meet in Waterford. I wonder how many of the top 10 in each sprint event come from there each year (this year had mostly illegal winds mind you),

I'll dig out the last few years when I get a chance but here is a breakdown from this year of men and women top 10 legal times achieved and on what tracks.

Track|Men|Women|Total
Tullamore|5|10|15
Belfast|10|4|14
Santry|2|7|9
Cork|1|6|7
Waterford|0|4|4
Greystones|0|1|1

In terms of wind assisted times this year in Waterford there were 4 times excluded which would have been top 10 in 100m and 0 excluded from the 200 which still would have it only 4th overall.

Chivito550

Testosterscone wrote: »

I'll dig out the last few years when I get a chance but here is a breakdown from this year of men and women top 10 legal times achieved and on what tracks.

Track|Men|Women|Total
Tullamore|5|10|15
Belfast|10|4|14
Santry|2|7|9
Cork|1|6|7
Waterford|0|4|4
Greystones|0|1|1

In terms of wind assisted times this year in Waterford there were 4 times excluded which would have been top 10 in 100m and 0 excluded from the 200 which still would have it only 4th overall.

Yeh but there's only one meet in Waterford every year to be fair.

Testosterscone

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yeh but there's only one meet in Waterford every year to be fair.

Prob offset somewhat by the fact there are so many heats. This year there were 42 individual events which probably puts them alot closer to the likes of Santry or Tullamore than some of the IMC venues. Even more so in years like 2014 when you had Intervarities or hosting rounds of the leagues.

dublin runner

To be fair, Kilbogget Track had a cracking little tailwind on the homestraight this morning so if one is looking for a fast 100m/200m time, that's your only place.

I'd have to disagree that athletics/running is an inexpensive sport. I imagine I will spend many thousands of running this year. Now, I could easily shave off a lot by not travelling twice this year to marathons but probably a lot like the arguments made about track times and races, no race or course compares to the top European marathon events. I think it's money well spent personally.

ultrapercy

The thread seems to have gone of its original topic "what it takes to be elite" on to what individuals hobby costs them. The article the thread was based on was less about the actua lexpenses of shoes, travel gels etc and more about an overall cost of putting a career on ice and adopting a more or less alternative lifestyle to peers. The big cost of being elite is the sacrafice of normal living that MUST be made to make it in professional sport as opposed to sacrafices high level amatures CHOOSE to make.

ultrapercy

The thread seems to have gone of its original topic "what it takes to be elite" on to what individuals hobby costs them. The article the thread was based on was less about the actua lexpenses of shoes, travel gels etc and more about an overall cost of putting a career on ice and adopting a more or less alternative lifestyle to peers. The big cost of being elite is the sacrafice of normal living that MUST be made to make it in professional sport as opposed to sacrafices high level amatures CHOOSE to make.

ultrapercy

The thread seems to have gone of its original topic "what it takes to be elite" on to what individuals hobby costs them. The article the thread was based on was less about the actua lexpenses of shoes, travel gels etc and more about an overall cost of putting a career on ice and adopting a more or less alternative lifestyle to peers. The big cost of being elite is the sacrafice of normal living that MUST be made to make it in professional sport as opposed to sacrafices high level amatures CHOOSE to make.

raiders11

Testosterscone wrote: »

I'll dig out the last few years when I get a chance but here is a breakdown from this year of men and women top 10 legal times achieved and on what tracks.

Track|Men|Women|Total
Tullamore|5|10|15
Belfast|10|4|14
Santry|2|7|9
Cork|1|6|7
Waterford|0|4|4
Greystones|0|1|1

In terms of wind assisted times this year in Waterford there were 4 times excluded which would have been top 10 in 100m and 0 excluded from the 200 which still would have it only 4th overall.

The last meet in Belfast, I was at, they were doing the sprints on the back straight. Can most racks accommodate that feature?

Murph_D

raiders11 wrote: »

The last meet in Belfast, I was at, they were doing the sprints on the back straight. Can most racks accommodate that feature?

If they have a setup on that side for photo finish, etc. Could be a problem for bigger meets with grandstand position and other facilities.

RayCun

Murph_D wrote: »

If they have a setup on that side for photo finish, etc. Could be a problem for bigger meets with grandstand position and other facilities.

yeah, most tracks have the markings, afaik, but aren't equipped otherwise