Mercedes diesel scandal

Sabre Man

(CercleFinance.com) - Daimler shares are down nearly 1% in Frankfurt on Thursday, on reports that Stuttgart prosecutors are continuing to investigate the carmaker for diesel emission test manipulations.

German media suggest that one million Mercedes-Benz engines could be involved in the case and that the concerned cars could lose certification, meaning that they would be banned from use.

Special Circumstances

Meh, f$$k the begrudgers - cheap tax, cheap VRT, token NCT emissions testing, good for the environment, so clean that it's 10c cheaper every litre every tank.

166man

Diesel, and in particular noisy rattly 4 cylinders do not belong in Mercedes cars nor any of these supposedly premium motors. BMW are the same etc.

Buys €45k 5 Series and gets the smallest engine for the best economy and lowest tax... The mind really boggles :eek:

It just saddens me to see these 'premium' cars with crap engines.

mikeecho

166man wrote: »

Diesel, and in particular noisy rattly 4 cylinders do not belong in Mercedes cars nor any of these supposedly premium motors. BMW are the same etc.

Buys €45k 5 Series and gets the smallest engine for the best economy and lowest tax... The mind really boggles :eek:

It just saddens me to see these 'premium' cars with crap engines.

Don't look under the bonnet of a Turkish 520i

You might just find a 1.6

Special Circumstances

166man wrote: »

Diesel, and in particular noisy rattly 4 cylinders do not belong in Mercedes cars nor any of these supposedly premium motors. BMW are the same etc.

Buys €45k 5 Series and gets the smallest engine for the best economy and lowest tax... The mind really boggles :eek:

It just saddens me to see these 'premium' cars with crap engines.

Modern 4pot diesels are whisper quiet and silky smooth. And oh so clean and environmental!

166man

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Modern 4pot diesels are whisper quiet and silky smooth. And oh so clean and environmental!

Have ya heard a 520d with 100k miles on the clock?

40 year old Massey Fergusons are more refined.

My old Mercedes V6 petrol had 153k miles on it and was properly silky smooth - the way it should be :cool:

jca

Will a 520D do 100K miles?(without a major calamity!!)

colm_mcm

166man wrote: »

Diesel, and in particular noisy rattly 4 cylinders do not belong in Mercedes cars nor any of these supposedly premium motors. BMW are the same etc.

Buys €45k 5 Series and gets the smallest engine for the best economy and lowest tax... The mind really boggles :eek:

It just saddens me to see these 'premium' cars with crap engines.

You're up to speed with how financing and BIK works. You're also familiar with pricing on 5 series. If not, here's a quick run through

520d SE €53k
520d M Sp €58k
X-Drive AWD add 4K to this

525d, which is still 2.0 is €8k over a 520d so €60/66k

530d is another €6k again, so €66k/71k, so the 3.0 engine is €13k extra over the 2.0

Prices are ex works before options, delivery, metallic and of course discount.

There is the 530e of course, but it's a 2.0 4 cylinder too and costs €63/68k

I have no issues with people taking the "cheap" membership into the 5 series club. They're still getting 7.5 sec 0-60 times, 145mph top speed and 190bhp with the base model. That's better (admittedly on paper only!) than an e39 530d

Slanty

How did a Mercedes scandal thread turn into a BMW topic?

mikeecho

Slanty wrote: »

How did a Mercedes scandal thread turn into a BMW topic?

Because everyone loves a bmw driver



.... But really, because Mercedes drivers are too old to use the internet, and the thread would turn zombie waiting for a reply from one of them

spiggotpaddy

.... But really, because Mercedes drivers are too old to use the internet, and the thread would turn zombie waiting for a reply from one of them[/quote]

Ya little bollox☺ maybe it's because once you've had a merc, you never want to see, talk about or own one again.
Parts are expensive, nobody wants to touch them (except main dealer) and quality is ****e. I'd swap mine for a ****en fiesta at this stage.
If I didn't do all my own repairs I would scrap it in a heartbeat.
What's this internet you talk of.

166man

colm_mcm wrote: »

You're up to speed with how financing and BIK works. You're also familiar with pricing on 5 series. If not, here's a quick run through

520d SE €53k
520d M Sp €58k
X-Drive AWD add 4K to this

525d, which is still 2.0 is €8k over a 520d so €60/66k

530d is another €6k again, so €66k/71k, so the 3.0 engine is €13k extra over the 2.0

Prices are ex works before options, delivery, metallic and of course discount.

There is the 530e of course, but it's a 2.0 4 cylinder too and costs €63/68k

I have no issues with people taking the "cheap" membership into the 5 series club. They're still getting 7.5 sec 0-60 times, 145mph top speed and 190bhp with the base model. That's better (admittedly on paper only!) than an e39 530d

Where did I say the €45k was buying a new 520d? Could it not be a demo model?

Also - not sure why you felt the need to post such a lengthy post re BMW's pricing schedule in a thread that has Mercedes in the title - slightly off topic Id have thought.

I'm not going to get into this with you Colm, but a 520d makes sense on paper I have no doubt, but so does living in Longford - where housing costs less substantially less than Dublin, there's still 1.4 million people living in the Capital though.

Riva10

Another fiasco

https://www.mail.com/int/business/economy/5367218-daimler-to-recall-3-vehicles-to-ease-diesel-doubts.html#.1258-stage-hero1-2

Special Circumstances

Ah lads ye are seeing negatives where there are only positives, Daimler are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts and because they believe in the future of diesel!

The Stuttgart-based company said it was taking the step to reassure drivers and strengthen confidence in the technology.
....
"The public debate about diesel engines is creating uncertainty — especially for our customers," Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche said. He said in a statement that "we have therefore decided on additional measures to reassure drivers of diesel cars and to strengthen confidence in diesel technology."

Sounds like a pretty sound thing to do, assuming it won't nobble the car like anecdotal VWs. Surely not, it sounds like they have come up with some improvements/refinements and they are willing to lose €220M just to make sure customers have the best possible experience.
It said the fix would involve a software update and would draw on knowledge gained through the development of the company's new family of diesel engines.

In fact they are just sooo sound, that rather than worry their customers with any further "uncertainty", they have decided to stop try to certify diesel cars for sale in the USA.

That's a lot of money lost for the sake of altruism and making sure customers aren't kept awake at night worrying. Some cynics might say they laid it on a little too thick but as a Green party supporter I take everything they say at face value.
#soundasapoundwha #VoteGreenVoteDiesel

Cee-Jay-Cee

166man wrote: »

Diesel, and in particular noisy rattly 4 cylinders do not belong in Mercedes cars nor any of these supposedly premium motors. BMW are the same etc.

Buys €45k 5 Series and gets the smallest engine for the best economy and lowest tax... The mind really boggles :eek:

It just saddens me to see these 'premium' cars with crap engines.

Ha ha so true! A work colleague of mine was bragging about his 5 series beemer and making everyone aware that he had bought a beemer, I took great pleasure out of making sure that everyone was also aware that it was a 518d by asking how much cheaper are they compared to the entry level 520d and are they really only a 1.8 engine (I knew they were a 2.0L) and is 1.8L not very weedy for such a big car? He shut his stupid face fairly quickly after that.

Odyssey 2005

If their software update is as bad as the vw one they can fook off. They've already made a bollix of one of my cars...theyre not getting the 2nd one.

CeilingFly

jca wrote: »

Will a 520D do 100K miles?(without a major calamity!!)

280k km - no major calamity. 2012.

Hoping to hit 500k km

Special Circumstances

166man wrote: »

Diesel, and in particular noisy rattly 4 cylinders do not belong in Mercedes cars nor any of these supposedly premium motors. BMW are the same etc.

Buys €45k 5 Series and gets the smallest engine for the best economy and lowest tax... The mind really boggles :eek:

It just saddens me to see these 'premium' cars with crap engines.

Seems Jaguar's global product marketing director doesn't agree with you at all, he's all for diesels in jags and educating people on the joys of diesel.

"Modern diesels are clean and efficient powertrains. And it's an excellent customer choice. It is part of our job to make sure that communication is clear and to get that message across (that they are clean and green)," he said.

It's true - I read it in the Indo :pac:

EndaHonesty

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Seems Jaguar's global product marketing director doesn't agree with you at all, he's all for diesels in jags and educating people on the joys of diesel.

"Modern diesels are clean and efficient powertrains. And it's an excellent customer choice. It is part of our job to make sure that communication is clear and to get that message across (that they are clean and green)," he said.

It's true - I read it in the Indo :pac:

You seem to be implying that what he says is incorrect or untrue? Do you not believe that modern diesels are clean or efficient?

Modern Petrol and Diesel engines perform very similarly now in emissions so are you against all engines?

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really-more-polluting-than-petrol-cars/

Special Circumstances

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You seem to be implying that what he says is incorrect or untrue? Do you not believe that modern diesels are clean or efficient?

Modern Petrol and Diesel engines perform very similarly now in emissions so are you against all engines?

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really-more-polluting-than-petrol-cars/

No no, I trust the green party, car manufacturers and the Indo to always tell the truth, the real news not this terrible fake stuff about diesels being toxic etc.

Are you suggesting that there was a mistake by the testers when they certified the mercs and vws as meeting those specs you included?

EndaHonesty

Special Circumstances wrote: »

No no, I trust the green party, car manufacturers and the Indo to always tell the truth, the real news not this terrible fake stuff about diesels being toxic etc.

Are you suggesting that there was a mistake by the testers when they certified the mercs and vws as meeting those specs you included?

I'm saying that I believe modern Euro 6 Diesel Cars are as clean as Euro 6 Petrol Cars.

Do you not believe that?

Special Circumstances

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I'm saying that I believe modern Euro 6 Diesel Cars are as clean as Euro 6 Petrol Cars.

Do you not believe that?

I believe it 100% and I believe Daimler are completely, utterly and treasonously wrong to desist seeking certification for these engines in the US.

It's a disgrace that they would be bullied into not not selling cars that are even cleaner than hybrids. And they're not alone - "Nine diesel models are available from five auto brands for the 2017 model year in the U.S., according to the EPA". Only 9 models? Who the hell do these EPA baxtards think they are to imply Euro6 diesels aren't clean!!!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-10/with-mercedes-exit-u-s-diesel-car-market-shrinks-even-more

#VoteGreenVoteDiesel
#DieselIstCleanJa
#DieselIstQuietJa
#DieselIstGutJa

EndaHonesty

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I believe it 100% and I believe Daimler are completely, utterly and treasonously wrong to desist seeking certification for these engines in the US.

It's a disgrace that they would be bullied into not not selling cars that are even cleaner than hybrids. And they're not alone - "Nine diesel models are available from five auto brands for the 2017 model year in the U.S., according to the EPA". Only 9 models? Who the hell do these EPA baxtards think they are to imply Euro6 diesels aren't clean!!!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-10/with-mercedes-exit-u-s-diesel-car-market-shrinks-even-more

#VoteGreenVoteDiesel
#DieselIstCleanJa
#DieselIstQuietJa
#DieselIstGutJa

What are you sh1tting on about?

That link you've provided is quite clear, Daimler are not proceeding with certification for those diesel engines because there is no market for diesel cars since the VW scandal.

The VW scandal which involved Euro 5 engines.

Euro 6 diesel cars are as clean as Euro 6 petrol cars.

Here's some facts for you;

It would take 50 new cars today to produce the same amount of pollutant emissions as one vehicle built in the 1970s.
Carbon monoxide (CO): petrol down 63%, diesel down 82% since 1993
Hydrocarbons (HC): petrol down 50% since 2001
Nitrogen oxide (NOx): down 84% since 2001
Particulate matter (PM): diesel down 96% since 1993

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/euro-emissions-standards/

Cars have never been cleaner. You can end your lame campaign...

Special Circumstances

That's very uncivil.

I believed German car manufacturers and the Green Party in 2008, and I'll believe them them in 2018.

Inviere

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You seem to be implying that what he says is incorrect or untrue? Do you not believe that modern diesels are clean or efficient?

Diesel engines, fundamentally, are dirty, filthy, tractor engines. Yes, they've been able to 'improve' the environmental figures over time, but imo, they've only been able to do that by making diesel engines so highly strung with gimmicks (dpf's, ammonia injection, etc) that they're reliability timebombs. So many people only buy them for the 'chape' tax & fuel, not realising, that in fact they're a completely unsuited engine for the persons needs. But shure there's sum kick off her boi!

R.O.R

No mention of the Audi petrol engine issue yet in the thread?

Riva10

Inviere wrote: »

Diesel engines, fundamentally, are dirty, filthy, tractor engines. Yes, they've been able to 'improve' the environmental figures over time, but imo, they've only been able to do that by making diesel engines so highly strung with gimmicks (dpf's, ammonia injection, etc) that they're reliability timebombs. So many people only buy them for the 'chape' tax & fuel, not realising, that in fact they're a completely unsuited engine for the persons needs. But shure there's sum kick off her boi!

And your qualifications for making this all encompassing statement, were earned at which university college? Or were they collected with a couple of free pints at the local hostillery after Mass on a particular Sunday

Inviere

Riva10 wrote: »

And your qualifications for making this all encompassing statement, were earned at which university college? Or were they collected with a couple of free pints at the local hostillery after Mass on a particular Sunday

8 years in the trade, on and off the tools. Certainly enough for me to form an informed opinion

Special Circumstances

Riva10 wrote: »

And your qualifications for making this all encompassing statement, were earned at which university college? Or were they collected with a couple of free pints at the local hostillery after Mass on a particular Sunday

Exactly! All these snakes of manufacturers that are reducing investment in diesel engines, or planning to discontinue them completely in the medium or short term - drunks, Catholic drunks all of them! Not fit to be running a company. The germans, now they know how to run an ethical company. Diesel will last 1000 years! Hail Diesel!

Riva10

Inviere wrote: »

8 years in the trade, on and off the tools. Certainly enough for me to form an informed opinion

You are hardly out of your time as an apprentice. By all means form your own opinion but the old saying of keeping your opinions to yourself is still true.

Gazzmonkey

166man wrote: »

Have ya heard a 520d with 100k miles on the clock?

40 year old Massey Fergusons are more refined.

My old Mercedes V6 petrol had 153k miles on it and was properly silky smooth - the way it should be :cool:

lol

Riva10

166man wrote: »

Have ya heard a 520d with 100k miles on the clock?

40 year old Massey Fergusons are more refined.

My old Mercedes V6 petrol had 153k miles on it and was properly silky smooth - the way it should be :cool:

Sawdust in the oil is a great for the silent treatment. Beats STP every time

EndaHonesty

Special Circumstances wrote: »

That's very uncivil.

I believed German car manufacturers and the Green Party in 2008, and I'll believe them them in 2018.

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Exactly! All these snakes of manufacturers that are reducing investment in diesel engines, or planning to discontinue them completely in the medium or short term - drunks, Catholic drunks all of them! Not fit to be running a company. The germans, now they know how to run an ethical company. Diesel will last 1000 years! Hail Diesel!

Can you answer questions clearly rather than trying (and failing) to be funny?

The people who are pushing the banning of diesel are the same people who brought in the tax regimes that caused diesel to be so popular. Bloody politicians.

So on one hand you pour scorn on the politicians for causing the rise of diesel and on the other hand you are lauding the current politicians for proposing a ban on diesel.

In fact both decisions are populist kneejerk uninformed reactions. Just like your own lame anti diesel campaign.

The truth is both diesel and petrol cars now produce around the same emissions.

If the politicians were serious they would ban old cars.

Inviere

Riva10 wrote: »

You are hardly out of your time as an apprentice. By all means form your own opinion but the old saying of keeping your opinions to yourself is still true.

Say what you will, it's an informed opinion, one which I'm entitled to hold and voice

Special Circumstances

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Can you answer questions clearly rather than trying (and failing) to be funny?

The people who are pushing the banning of diesel are the same people who brought in the tax regimes that caused diesel to be so popular. Bloody politicians.

So on one hand you pour scorn on the politicians for causing the rise of diesel and on the other hand you are lauding the current politicians for proposing a ban on diesel.

The truth is both diesel and petrol cars now produce around the same emissions.
If the politicians were serious they would ban old cars.

Look, if you are butthurt that even (some) manufacturers are saying diesel is a poor solutionthen you need to end your lame campaign against me and take it up with the traitors that are abandoning diesel.

Traitors!
We've been betrayed and deceived from the very beginning!
What a monstrous betrayal of the German people...
But all those traitors will pay. They'll pay with their own blood.
THEY SHALL DROWN IN THEIR OWN BLOOD!

EndaHonesty

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Look, if you are butthurt that even (some) manufacturers are saying diesel is a poor solutionthen you need to end your lame campaign against me and take it up with the traitors that are abandoning diesel.

Traitors!
We've been betrayed and deceived from the very beginning!
What a monstrous betrayal of the German people...
But all those traitors will pay. They'll pay with their own blood.
THEY SHALL DROWN IN THEIR OWN BLOOD!

It's you that seems to have an issue with the manufacturers.

Cars are cleaner now than they've ever been.

Your strange and borderline xenophobic rants against german manufacturers are boring. Get over it.

jca

EndaHonesty wrote: »

It's you that seems to have an issue with the manufacturers.

Cars are cleaner now than they've ever been.

Your strange and borderline xenophobic rants against german manufacturers are boring. Get over it.

I think he's pulling your leg but you're a bit too much of an Audi fanboi to get it:pac:

Special Circumstances

jca wrote: »

I think he's pulling your leg but you're a bit too much of an Audi fanboi to get it:pac:

No, it's true, Volvo are abandoning diesel completely.
I don't know how that is my "issue", or xenophobic.
They are traitors to the church of diesel. Simple as that.

EndaHonesty

jca wrote: »

I think he's pulling your leg but you're a bit too much of an Audi fanboi to get it:pac:

I've had Ford, Renault, Nissan, Subaru, VW, Audi, BMW and Skoda but don't let the truth get in the way of your thick generalisations.

Jog on buddy...

jca

Special Circumstances wrote: »

No, it's true, Volvo are abandoning diesel completely.
I don't know how that is my "issue", or xenophobic.
They are traitors to the church of diesel. Simple as that.

OH. So you're a bit nuts then? You do know Volvo are Swedish, I just know I'm going to regret engaging with you:rolleyes: I'll probably end up getting a one week ban from an equally nuts mod:p

Special Circumstances

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Jog on buddy...

VERY uncivil.

EndaHonesty

Special Circumstances wrote: »

No, it's true, Volvo are abandoning diesel completely.
I don't know how that is my "issue", or xenophobic.
They are traitors to the church of diesel. Simple as that.

More uninformed rubbish. Volvo are not abandoning diesel. Check again smart ass.

Volvo is owned by the Zhejiang Geely Holding Group.

The group says five new models set to be launched between 2019 and 2021 would all be fully electric. Three of the models will be made by Volvo.

“These five cars will be supplemented by a range of petrol and diesel plug in hybrid and mild hybrid 48-volt options on all models,” said Volvo.

http://www.euronews.com/2017/07/05/volvo-cars-going-green-after-2019

Special Circumstances

EndaHonesty wrote: »

More uninformed rubbish. Volvo are not abandoning diesel. Check again smart ass.

It's true. I read it in the Indo

jca

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I've had Ford, Renault, Nissan, Subaru, VW, Audi, BMW and Skoda but don't let the truth get in the way of your thick generalisations.

Jog on buddy...

This is a great thread:D All the loopers in one place:D

jsd1004

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I'm saying that I believe modern Euro 6 Diesel Cars are as clean as Euro 6 Petrol Cars.

Do you not believe that?

They are not in real world driving conditions, they are much slower to get to temp and when they are cold/cold weather none of the complicated emissions stuff works so they are still filthy. When they are up to temp they are close to petrol cars. A euro 6 truck is cleaner than a euro 6 diesel car.

https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/Publikasjoner/T%C3%98I%20rapporter/2015/1405-2015/1405-summary.pdf

Special Circumstances

jca wrote: »

This is a great thread:D All the loopers in one place:D

Steiner's assault will bring it under control.

Special Circumstances

jsd1004 wrote: »

They are not in real world driving conditions, they are much slower to get to temp and when they are cold/cold weather none of the complicated emissions stuff works so they are still filthy. When they are up to temp they are close to petrol cars. A euro 6 truck is cleaner than a euro 6 diesel car.

https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/Publikasjoner/T%C3%98I%20rapporter/2015/1405-2015/1405-summary.pdf

Lies! All Lies! I refuse to believe that the emissions systems are only engaged at particular sensor values that correspond to the fantastic tests they are subjected to for certification.
Fervent belief in the final victory of diesel will see us through these dark times!

EndaHonesty

jsd1004 wrote: »

They are not in real world driving conditions, they are much slower to get to temp and when they are cold/cold weather none of the complicated emissions stuff works so they are still filthy. When they are up to temp they are close to petrol cars. A euro 6 truck is cleaner than a euro 6 diesel car.

https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/Publikasjoner/T%C3%98I%20rapporter/2015/1405-2015/1405-summary.pdf

Give up the hyperbole. From your own linked report;

Emissions of PM and other regulated emission factors is very low for both petrol and diesel cars.

so hardly filthy :rolleyes:

bear1

This thread got boring and tedious very quickly.

Toyotafanboi

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Ha ha so true! A work colleague of mine was bragging about his 5 series beemer and making everyone aware that he had bought a beemer, I took great pleasure out of making sure that everyone was also aware that it was a 518d by asking how much cheaper are they compared to the entry level 520d and are they really only a 1.8 engine (I knew they were a 2.0L) and is 1.8L not very weedy for such a big car? He shut his stupid face fairly quickly after that.

Oh I'm sure he's sitting at home now feeling like a right fool after you took him down a peg, he's probably thinking about bringing it back.

Buying a new car is exciting for a lot of people, maybe he was just excited? I would be if I just picked up a new 5'er.

I actually would feel a little bit bad for whatever kind of person would feel the need to make sure that after a work colleague had mentioned their new car, they would feel the need to have to make a follow up statement telling people it "wasn't that great".

mikeecho

Is anyone surprised with the emissions scandals from the various manufacturers, they've being lieing and fudging mpg figures for decades.

Just like they fudge and lie about ev range.... or is that the next headline after ice is dead and buried.